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Phoenix LXXVI: Renaissance Men

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Old
05-08-2013, 12:40 PM
  #451
Killion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theoriginal55 View Post
It has been postulated that the Tohono may have been interested in running/buying the Coyotes/Jobing in the past.
Indeed, and rumoured to have been part of Matthew Hulsizers & Greg Jamisons investment groups...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobs View Post
I don't know if Glendale would sign a lease with them if they bought the club.
Its a rather convoluted situation, complicated. The Tohonos' ancestral lands are south of the border, however, they were affected by a federally built damn and as part of the compensation given the right to claim land in Arizona, so they settled on Glendale. However, it wasnt quite that clean, simple, as they additionally purchased acreage, and lots of it under cover of a holding company. When they revealed all, including their wish to develop a resort casino project, they volunteered to pay a 10% flat tax to Glendale in perpetuity on hotels', gambling proceeds, the whole shootin match to cover infrastructure costs (roads, sewers, water etc, which the COG claimed wouldnt be enough).

So, the City wasnt having any of it as the Tohonos plans interfered with their Master Municipal Development Plan, on top of which they didnt like the idea of any kind of gambling in their community, further exacerbated by the manner in which the Band went about everything in first claiming lands miles & miles away from their own, buying adjacent property under cover of various shells, then the issues of Arizona's gaming compact which was supposed to be limited and backed by other tribes in the region in trying to put an end to the Tohonos efforts who feared loss of business (most notably the Gila Band over in Scottsdale with its golf course/resort/casino dealeo).

My personal opinion is that the COG should have embraced & worked with the Tohonos from day one, as a true "Sports & Entertainment Destination" should if possible include gaming bringing in tens of millions in tax receipts to the city, putting some serious teeth on the face of Westgate. The so called "social ills" that accompany casino's with limited VLT's, Blackjack etc are absolutely minimal as witness such developments in Quebec, Ontario, British Columbia & elsewhere, absolute tax boons to the municipalities & provinces. Vancouver alone has 2 large and a couple of smaller casino's including hotels & show lounges etc, active & responsible partners in the suburbs of Richmond, Coquitlam & so on. Crime hasnt been a problem but for a few incidents of Loan Sharking & Money Laundering by primarily Asian Gangs which was snuffed out and fast.

But you know? I dont live in Glendale, and its really none of my business to be telling them or anywhere else that they should permit gambling in their community, that the taxes generated would solve a World of problems, the traffic such a destination engendering a massive winfall for your shops, bars & restaurants. That with the arena & stadium, Westgate, absolutely ideal to welcome the Tohonos. Glendales apparently already decided no, spent over $3M & God knows how much time in Council & staff time over & above that fighting it every step of the way, losing every single battle decisively.... never mind that in welcoming the Tohono's your teams saved, Westgates revitalized, and with Tanger already-in more big boxes to follow, very real possibility Bidwells Sportsmans Park becomes a reality as a result, Luke AFB growing in gearing up for the pending federal contract, economy on the up, construction, jobs, new home starts......


Last edited by Killion: 05-08-2013 at 01:31 PM. Reason: typos..
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05-08-2013, 12:45 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
If they can agree, a local sale is imminent. If not, other options will be pursued.

you really have the grapefruits to make this statement after all these years of watching "imminent sales" happen in "2 weeks"

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05-08-2013, 01:03 PM
  #453
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Further to Clarkonomics... I'm not sure if she doesn't understand a financial spreadsheet, or whether she's just been blinded by her own political and personal perspective. Consider this paragraph from a recent blog posting.

Quote:
Basic math says if you spend $12.4 million and you make $6.9 million, you are in debt $5.5 million per year.A net operating LOSS is not the same as the total cost to operate the arena annually. How can anyone can throw out a figure of $5 or $5.5 million and claim that is the cost to operate the arena? At best, it appears to be irresponsible and misleading to the general public. It provides erroneous fodder to the opponents of any fee paid whatsoever to operate the arena annually. Did I mention that this proposed budget includes very few non-hockey events? This budget is subject to change in an upward direction in terms of loss as more non-hockey events are added.
Amazingly, she acknowledges that the "net operating loss" is $5.5 million, but thinks that the COG should be justified in spending $12.4 million to cover the total cost to operate the arena. She also has the temerity to indicate that those who propose the "net operating loss" figure as the appropriate AMF as "misleading" the public. Perhaps the message she would like the public to hear is that even though the net operating cost is $5.5 million, we should pay the arena manager $12.4 million because the COG should ensure that the arena manager receives a profit of almost $7 million annually.

With unintended irony, she points out that increasing the number of events at the Jobing.com would increase the operating cost, presumably justifying an even higher AMF. She appears to be communicating a sad reality; that in defiance of the business model of other arenas in N. America, the busier the Jobing.com is, the worse are the financial prospects. So, Glendale spent $180 million on a beautiful arena that can't even cover its ongoing operating costs, let alone contribute to the construction costs. And the more events it hosts, the worse it gets.


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05-08-2013, 01:16 PM
  #454
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Taken at face value what Clarkie is saying to me is the CoG's best course of action is to raze the arena, sell the land and continue paying the construction bond. The other option is to shovel good money after bad in the Clarkonomic world.

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05-08-2013, 01:21 PM
  #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
Further to Clarkonomics... I'm not sure if she doesn't understand a financial spreadsheet, or whether she's just been blinded by her own political and personal perspective. Consider this paragraph from a recent blog posting.



Amazingly, she acknowledges that the "net operating loss" is $5.5 million, but thinks that the COG should be justified in spending $12.4 million to cover the total cost to operate the arena. She also has the temerity to indicate that those who propose the "net operating loss" figure as the appropriate AMF as "misleading" the public. Perhaps the message she would like the public to hear is that even though the net operating cost is $5.5 million, we should pay the arena manager $12.4 million because the COG should ensure that the arena manager receives a profit of almost $7 million annually.

With unintended irony, she points out that increasing the number of events at the Jobing.com would increase the operating cost, presumably justifying an even higher AMF. She appears to be communicating a sad reality; that in defiance of the business model of other arenas in N. America, the busier the Jobing.com is, the worse are the financial prospects. So, Glendale spent $180 million on a beautiful arena that can't even cover its ongoing operating costs, let alone contribute to the construction costs. And the more events it hosts, the worse it gets.
The guy who writes that blog for her is just a fan. He doesnt understand anything that he is attempting to write about. In fact, he doesnt seem to even comprehend that he is ignorant on the subject matter. It's the whole Dunning-Kruger effect.

It's not like anyone is checking in with TeamBeavis for cogent analysis. The quote you posted above about net operating loss and total cost is one of the dumbest things ever written. The fact that it is presented as a correction to the legitimate figures in the AZ newspaper article is hilarious.

Settle down, Beavis

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05-08-2013, 01:46 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by CasualFan View Post
It's the whole Dunning-Kruger effect.
... dont believe that blogs' being Ghosted. But none the less, and in keeping with our Renaissance theme,
the fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.... says so right here CF.


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05-08-2013, 02:09 PM
  #457
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... dont believe that blogs' being Ghosted.
I don't know. The more I look at her blog with links to pics and diagrams, etc. ...although its not that hard, do you really think someone 90 ( OK. maybe not quite 90 ) years old is putting it together? I know people her age, and there is no way they could put a blog together much less even figure out a mouse and keyboard.

I think they are her words and thoughts being dictated from her rocking chair on her back porch, but I'm guessing she's got someone else putting it on the internet. "I'm bitter, and by god the world is going to hear me"

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05-08-2013, 02:22 PM
  #458
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
I don't know. The more I look at her blog with links to pics and diagrams, etc. ...although its not that hard, do you really think someone 90 ( OK. maybe not quite 90 ) years old is putting it together? I know people her age, and there is no way they could put a blog together much less even figure out a mouse and keyboard.

I think they are her words and thoughts being dictated from her rocking chair on her back porch, but I'm guessing she's got someone else putting it on the internet. "I'm bitter, and by god the world is going to hear me"
The ad "link" on her blog to a "CougarLife.com" seems more Clark than Beavis...

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05-08-2013, 02:38 PM
  #459
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I don't know.... I know people her age, and there is no way they could put a blog together much less even figure out a mouse and keyboard.
... No, its not difficult at all, and in fact she made quite a point of it in one of her first posts that "yes, its me here, not Ghosted, resent the insinuation, suggestion". For sure its Joyce. The syntax, grammar, structure, thought process etc, just look at the replys to comments. One & the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
The ad "link" on her blog to a "CougarLife.com"...
Thats google ads. Zoning in on the profile of the visitors. Male. Aged
30-55. Cougars are up to age 45, thereafter referred to as Panther's.

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05-08-2013, 02:44 PM
  #460
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Sorry if you're here for drive-by opinion, this is going to be a long post..

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcat48 View Post
Getting things back on track.... Here's a rebuttal by FoxSports AZ on the news story from the AZ Republic.

Link>>>>>
The funniest part is that Daly quote: “The figures aren't even close to being accurate”.

Dude, the NHL (Arena Newco LLC) provided the figures!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHLfan4life View Post
Because one supports their opinion on relocation. Guess which one. Hmmmm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
They both deal with the facts. They only offer a different viewpoint of those facts.
No offense but this kind of relativism is an insult to everyone's intelligence. I'm sure you guys know better than hide behind the laziness of sports journalists. We here at the BOH (that would include you, TL) have consistently been able to process this information much more efficiently than either the Republic (who we all know you hate) or Fox (which I guess you agree with on this issue?)

Here are the available FACTS (source) regarding Jobing.com since the NHL took over (all figures are per year):

Event revenues: $4-5 million
Event expenses: $2.8-3 million
Non-event (i.e. fixed) expenses: $4.9-$5.2 million
Overhead allocation: $1.7 million
Net loss: $5.1-5.5 million

Let's ignore the meaning of 'overhead allocation' for now and treat it as a regular fixed expense. That means we can simplify the financial figure to:

Net event profits: $1.5 million
Fixed costs: $6.5-7 million
Net loss: $5-5.5 million

The Republic is wrong when it simply says that "the true cost to operate Jobing.com is $5-5.5 million". It should say:
- if Glendale hires an arena manager (AM) and keeps event profits, it should pay the AM $6.5-7 million
- if Glendale hires an AM who gets to keep event profits, it should pay the AM $5-5.5 million

There's no such thing as "true cost" until you define "cost". But the Republic's point is that the management fee offered to a potential owner should be around $5-5.5 million if such an owner gets to keep all event profits, not $15M per year on average. They are 100% right in that regard.

The Fox article (i.e. the NHL's PR response) is worse because it involves all kinds of strawmen designed to discredit the Republic article on grounds completely irrelevant to the Republic's point about arena operating costs:

Quote:
"While it's largely correct that the annual operating costs of the Arena are about $5 million a year, that assumes the losses would be the same in a world without the Coyotes. That seems unlikely, because when the Coyotes are playing, the revenue they generate for the city from various sources more than offset the additional costs that are incurred."
Not only has the latter part been thoroughly debunked many times in the past (heck, one only needs to take a look at the Pollack study!!), the whole argument is fallacious. The Republic piece is about arena operating costs. If, to Glendale, the (ancillary) benefits of having an arena is greater (it is not), then so be it. It doesn't change the costs. To suggest the AMF should be higher than the costs is to suggest that the entire public economic benefits from sports infrastructure should be privatized... in effect, the Fox piece argues that Glendale should explicitly disobey the gift clause.

Quote:
"In a world without the Coyotes, the city would still have to hire an arena manager. The city’s request for proposals provides three methods in which a manager can operate. The most likely is a fixed management fee, where the manager is paid a fixed cost to operate, and the city is on the hook for the losses. While it’s hard to guess what the fee proposals will be, no bids of less than $5 million are expected."
Hmmm... exactly the Republic's point.

Quote:
"The city currently earns revenue... The vast majority of that revenue will be lost without the Coyotes"
Completely unrelated to arena operating cost.

Quote:
"Incremental new city revenue" section
Completely unrelated to arena operating cost.

tl;dr version of that section:
1) the NHL has done nothing for the past 2 1/2 years to book non-hockey events
2) a potential owner would generate a lot more new revenue than another arena manager would (???)

Quote:
"Additional tax revenue" section
Maybe true, unrelated to arena operating cost.

After that smoke & mirrors firing in all directions, the Fox piece goes back to a question it actually answered earlier ("it's largely correct that the annual operating costs of the Arena are about $5 million a year"):

Quote:
So what is the actual cost of managing Jobing.com Arena? Well, that depends on your study, and there have been several. Most estimate the costs much higher.
..then it goes on to quote estimates in the $10-15 million range.. dude, you already mentioned the actual numbers, why give credit to estimates?? Suspension of disbelief, anyone?

--

Rambling on overhead allocation (for extra credit) --

Overhead allocation is an accounting term that represents the amount charged by the NHL to its Arena Newco subsidiary. How that amount was determined is not public (and, my prediction, will never be). In theory, the NHL should charge Newco for the marginal expenses incurred by HQ following the takeover of Jobing.com operations. The actual amount could be $0 (HQ incurred nothing, Newco's expenses are already in non-event expenses), or it could be $1.7 million (as reported), or it could be $5 million or more (HQ incurred many more expenses but somehow decided not to charge Newco for them).

Given the NHL's vested interest to overstate operating costs to facilitate negotiations with the COG, I argued earlier in this thread that the true cost must be lower than $1.7 million, by how much we don't know. We'll see when the bids come in, but I think it's very close to zero.

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05-08-2013, 02:59 PM
  #461
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Thanks to Barney and others who have the real figures broken down clearly for us to read.

My own take on this whole is that one must figure out the most important piece of information. Those pieces of information seem to go like this in my mind:
FOR GLENDALE
1) How much does Glendale want to know about what it actually takes to run the Arena?
2) If they really want to know the truth, can they find it in the midst of all the bad information available?
3) How much wiggle room do they actually have in their budget anyway?
4) Does the current council have an emotional attachment to the team?
5) How much do they fear Moody's, et al down grading them further?
6) When they need to decide?

FOR THE LEAGUE
1) Is it possible to spin the AMF contract so that a new buyer can get 15M/yr?
2) If not, how can we make this look like the city kicked us out, rather than that we just left?
3) Do we need to decide soon, so that we aren't left owning the team next year, too?

FOR A NEW BUYER
1) How much AMF do I need to make a profit on the team, given the realities of the market? (Note, this is not the same question as "How much does it cost to run the Arena?)
2) Can I get that much?

Given all the above, and the recent news articles with Newco's actual figures in them, my guess that a NEW BUYER has decided that the answer to 2) above is NO. So, there is no new buyer left actually looking at keeping the team there.

Therefore, I guess that we will hear nothing until May 24, when the RFP finishes, and Glendale starts opening the bids.

At that point, the League will start making some noise about relocation.

So, this whole saga will be pretty dull for the next 16 - 19 days (the last weekend included there extends to the 19 day mark).

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05-08-2013, 03:15 PM
  #462
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My biggest problem with every "buyer" that has come along.


not one of these buyers is a big money independent wealth guy (besides Reinsdorf). They are all investment guys who are used to using other peoples money. Thats fine, I dont dislike the profession, but they arent the type of rich guys that own hockey teams. These investment specialists do not want to use their own money, and its not like they are the type of professionals that hold on to assets. These are the guys that buy low, chop down, and sell for profit. The out clause is a dead giveaway to their intentions.

Ill believe in this if we get one guy who made his money outside of the investment world. One guy who is willing to eat losses and put a serious product on the ice. That hasnt happened.


What these guys want to do is network with wealth. These are rich guys trying to get their hands on billionaire accounts. Its a giant cigar and whiskey mixer to these guys. They have been playing the nhl for years now and I cant understand how the nhl keeps falling for this networking scam by guys like ice edge (who are not incredibly wealthy, they are rich mcmansion investors), hulsizer who failed to buy 2 teams, Gosbee who only puts up enough money to last until he can sell the team for profit. Its a giant networking scam. Either the NHL is very very stupid, or they know what they are and just use them to delay the situation and avoid public backlash.


PKP? real wealth, not rich, wealthy. The nhl wants owners like him
Isn't Gosbee one of those dirty, filthy, wealthy types?

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05-08-2013, 03:26 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Thanks to Barney and others who have the real figures broken down clearly for us to read.

My own take on this whole is that one must figure out the most important piece of information. Those pieces of information seem to go like this in my mind:
FOR GLENDALE
1) How much does Glendale want to know about what it actually takes to run the Arena?
2) If they really want to know the truth, can they find it in the midst of all the bad information available?
3) How much wiggle room do they actually have in their budget anyway?
4) Does the current council have an emotional attachment to the team?
5) How much do they fear Moody's, et al down grading them further?
6) When they need to decide?
Glendale seems to be sticking with $6 million for an AMF. That could be because that is all they have or because that is because what they think is fair. It could also be due to the fact they've been told by one the companies that $6 million is about right. Didn't Global Spectrum say a year or so ago that they would estimate about $6.5-$7 million per year, even without the Coyotes? They may also be at the point where they'll find out May 28 (since the Monday is Memorial Day) what they have and they aren't giving anything to anyone until that time. The NHL may have a deadline coming up, but Glendale doesn't have to work by it.

Quote:
FOR THE LEAGUE
1) Is it possible to spin the AMF contract so that a new buyer can get 15M/yr?
2) If not, how can we make this look like the city kicked us out, rather than that we just left?
3) Do we need to decide soon, so that we aren't left owning the team next year, too?
It seems the NHL has gone to a scorched earth strategy. They are going to make sure they don't get blamed for this.

Quote:
FOR A NEW BUYER
1) How much AMF do I need to make a profit on the team, given the realities of the market? (Note, this is not the same question as "How much does it cost to run the Arena?)
2) Can I get that much?
Hypothetically speaking, it would be interesting if the COG's best offer on May 24 is for $10+ million. Do they go back to the NHL, begging for forgiveness?

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05-08-2013, 03:51 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
Sorry if you're here for drive-by opinion, this is going to be a long post

...
Thank you for all the analysis. Wading through the most recent annual report (released closer to the end of the current fiscal year than the last) I felt emotional pain. I really can't go through all the rigmarole of analyzing much of this to a great extent any more.

At any rate I prefer the misinterpretation of the figures, or perhaps the Hocking projections, both of which imply the incremental operating costs are so high the best course of action is to raze the facility.

Quote:
Rambling on overhead allocation (for extra credit) --

Overhead allocation is an accounting term that represents the amount charged by the NHL to its Arena Newco subsidiary. How that amount was determined is not public (and, my prediction, will never be). In theory, the NHL should charge Newco for the marginal expenses incurred by HQ following the takeover of Jobing.com operations. The actual amount could be $0 (HQ incurred nothing, Newco's expenses are already in non-event expenses), or it could be $1.7 million (as reported), or it could be $5 million or more (HQ incurred many more expenses but somehow decided not to charge Newco for them).

Given the NHL's vested interest to overstate operating costs to facilitate negotiations with the COG, I argued earlier in this thread that the true cost must be lower than $1.7 million, by how much we don't know. We'll see when the bids come in, but I think it's very close to zero.
What, you don't think the finance and admin costs are around $1 million per year? How about that IT allocation? Priceless.


Last edited by OthmarAmmann: 05-08-2013 at 04:00 PM.
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05-08-2013, 04:08 PM
  #465
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What, you don't think the finance and admin costs are around $1 million per year? How about that IT allocation? Priceless.
Well I'm sure if they had "headache allocation" that could be a pretty substantial number; I can't help but feel that "Executive allocation" means the NHL is asking Glendale to pay some of Bill Daly's salary.

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05-08-2013, 04:12 PM
  #466
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How about that IT allocation? Priceless.
It's probably for a dedicated BOH connection.

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05-08-2013, 04:16 PM
  #467
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In my previous post I was saying that Glendale should have sold the tribe the Arena, not have them purchase the team.

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05-08-2013, 04:28 PM
  #468
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In my previous post I was saying that Glendale should have sold the tribe the Arena, not have them purchase the team.
Yes, I was aware of that, however, I preferred to stick to the facts if only rumoured that the Tohono's were involved in Hulsizers & Jamisons investment groups, both of which btw included the "option" to purchase the arena. For Glendale at anytime over the past 4yrs to have pulled a complete 180, dropped their suits against the Tohono's, told the NHL to go fish, sold the building to the Band is beyond fantasyland.... even if after seriously giving it thought it does actually make a fair amount of sense.

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05-08-2013, 05:09 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
And the AZ Republic article completely ignores non-hockey events all together.

There is absolutely NO guarantee another arena manager could even fill enough dates to compensate for the loss of the Coyotes. I've seen dozens of posts here claiming it can be done but unless it's actually done it's nothing but hot air.
Moyes was doing it in 2008/2009 in the teeth of a catastrophic economic collapse. Just look at those Pollstar figures in the referenced article.

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05-08-2013, 05:17 PM
  #470
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Nobody is arguing the arena has been under booked. That's a red herring in the debate over arena costs.
WRONG; it is very important to the NET COST of operating an arena. Consider that KC's Sprint Center is doing so well that they don't want an NHL/NBA team. They're making a NET PROFIT. Instead of KC paying the arena manager, the arena manager is paying KC a share of the profits. THAT is how it's supposed to be done folks.

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05-08-2013, 05:50 PM
  #471
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WRONG; it is very important to the NET COST of operating an arena. Consider that KC's Sprint Center is doing so well that they don't want an NHL/NBA team. They're making a NET PROFIT. Instead of KC paying the arena manager, the arena manager is paying KC a share of the profits. THAT is how it's supposed to be done folks.
The Sprint Center is also the first choice of venue in KC for concerts and other events. And it's in downtown KC.

Jobing is out in the sticks and is the 2nd choice venue in Phoenix besides the US Airways Arena.

There is pretty well no way that Jobing can even come close to emulating the success of the Sprint Center.

While the Coyotes needed to get out of America West/US Airways Arena, I would argue that the Phoenix area didn't need a new full sized arena. That probably should've been a sign that the NHL maybe needed to re-evaluate Phoenix a lot earlier than 2013.

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05-08-2013, 05:55 PM
  #472
TheLegend
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Doesn't matter what the posters think. They can latch on to whatever they want. Employees of the CoG latched on to whatever number suited their purposes as well.

All that matters is what the Mayor and council think. And if they think that the most they can afford to pay or should be paying for arena management is in the $6M/yr range then I think the Coyotes are moving.

And it doesn't really matter if the CoG got ripped off by the NHL by putting up $25M/yr when they should have only put up $6M or even $12M... that's done and gone. What matters is what they can afford to pay today.

Completely agree with it sitting in CoG's lap at this point.

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Old
05-08-2013, 05:57 PM
  #473
OthmarAmmann
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Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
Well I'm sure if they had "headache allocation" that could be a pretty substantial number; I can't help but feel that "Executive allocation" means the NHL is asking Glendale to pay some of Bill Daly's salary.
I thought maybe Beasley!

Quote:
Originally Posted by theoriginal55 View Post
In my previous post I was saying that Glendale should have sold the tribe the Arena, not have them purchase the team.
Well considering the acrimony between them, they probably should try to get the tribe to buy the team

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Old
05-08-2013, 06:06 PM
  #474
Killion
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Originally Posted by Scoobs View Post
While the Coyotes needed to get out of America West/US Airways Arena, I would argue that the Phoenix area didn't need a new full sized arena. That probably should've been a sign that the NHL maybe needed to re-evaluate Phoenix a lot earlier than 2013.
Ya, and once again, and I hate to sound like a broken record, but yes, Gary Bettman shouldve been a lot more diligent in working with Burke & Gluckstern in Lease Negotiations with Jerry Colangelo, insuring they got a fair shake. Didnt do that, didnt bother to over-see the transactions & plans in order to protect the leagues integrity & wider interests, and as a result, no win situation. Right then & there was when the seeds of destruction were planted... if Colangelo wasnt willing to play nice, then the team shouldve moved into the old War Vets Memorial on the State Fair Grounds (original home of the WHA & later IHL Roadrunners), spent some money & fixed it up. Built the brand, fan base, promoted themselves properly, Olde Tyme Hockey, bided their time & either built anew on the Fairgrounds, Downtown or in Scottsdale.

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Old
05-08-2013, 06:13 PM
  #475
aqib
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Why should it be more with a hockey team? The city isn't getting any more direct revenue with the team there. And, it certainly isn't getting 3.5M more in tax revenue from Westgate as a result of the team being there.
The city does get some number greater than zero from the Coyotes between ticket surcharges and increased sales taxes on game day. Its not a horrible idea to filter some of that back to the team. Paying more than that I don't think will/should fly.

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