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WPG-TOR Kadri-Bogosian

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Old
05-07-2013, 09:56 PM
  #51
TmlHockeyFan
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Originally Posted by Nathan311 View Post
Toronto upgrades a D (by a lot), loses a depth winger, and adds a first, how does Toronto not benefit?
We lose offense a lot too. We need a skilled centre like Kadri. Toronto is lacking a really good centre.

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05-07-2013, 11:26 PM
  #52
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This is pretty terrible.

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05-08-2013, 01:00 AM
  #53
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Bogosian is someone who is living off where he was taken in the draft and unfilled potential.

He isn't anything special right now, and is definitely not worth what Kadri has shown he can be this season.

I dont blame Jets fans though for pumping his tires, I'd be looking for any positives possible too if that is what my team got from their 3rd overall pick 5 years ago.

The only reason he is a top-4 upgrade for Toronto is because their defense is so bad.

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05-08-2013, 01:03 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by jughead42 View Post
To Toronto

Bogosian

To Winnipeg

Kadri


Is this enough, who has to give up more and would there be interest. As a Leaf fan I`d like to sell Kadri high and live with the consequences if the blossoms elsewhere. Both are RFAs and I think Bogosian could help the Leafs more. Thoughts.
stay in Windsor, leave the Leafs board and avoid the Leafs. You hate Kadri, we all know that Spitsfire boy.

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05-08-2013, 01:28 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Face Of Bear View Post
Bogosian is someone who is living off where he was taken in the draft and unfilled potential.

He isn't anything special right now, and is definitely not worth what Kadri has shown he can be this season.

I dont blame Jets fans though for pumping his tires, I'd be looking for any positives possible too if that is what my team got from their 3rd overall pick 5 years ago.

The only reason he is a top-4 upgrade for Toronto is because their defense is so bad.
Ok...so lets try watching him play before we jump to judgements next time? Thanks chief.

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05-08-2013, 02:26 AM
  #56
Bernier the Boats
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Would love Bogosian, but can't deal up the potential of Kadri to be a 1C. Kadri was on pace for 75 points this year playing ~15mins a night with second unit PP time. Shut down dman are valuable, but not as valuable as 1st line centres, especially when we have a #1D already (Phaneuf), as well as Gardiner who most would say has top pairing potential, and Rielly who has #1D potential.

I see Jet's fans point of view though. This really comes down to whether people believe Kadri is a potential #1C.

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05-08-2013, 02:38 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Face Of Bear View Post
Bogosian is someone who is living off where he was taken in the draft and unfilled potential.

He isn't anything special right now, and is definitely not worth what Kadri has shown he can be this season.

I dont blame Jets fans though for pumping his tires, I'd be looking for any positives possible too if that is what my team got from their 3rd overall pick 5 years ago.

The only reason he is a top-4 upgrade for Toronto is because their defense is so bad.
You have literally no idea what you're talking about.

Of defensmen that played 5 games, three faced tougher competition than Bogosian. Phanuef, Karlsson and OEL.

Despite this Bogosian still scored at a 35 point pace. He's also 6'3, 215 and highly physical. And he's 22. I'm thinking the Jets are more likely to give him an 8 year deal than trade him.

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05-08-2013, 06:38 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Face Of Bear View Post
Bogosian is someone who is living off where he was taken in the draft and unfilled potential.

He isn't anything special right now, and is definitely not worth what Kadri has shown he can be this season.

I dont blame Jets fans though for pumping his tires, I'd be looking for any positives possible too if that is what my team got from their 3rd overall pick 5 years ago.

The only reason he is a top-4 upgrade for Toronto is because their defense is so bad.
So you've mad it quite clear you either don't watch hockey or you don't know anything about it. Just out of curiousty, which is it?

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05-08-2013, 06:50 AM
  #59
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This makes both teams immediately worse IMO.

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05-08-2013, 07:41 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by BBurke View Post
Would love Bogosian, but can't deal up the potential of Kadri to be a 1C. Kadri was on pace for 75 points this year playing ~15mins a night with second unit PP time. Shut down dman are valuable, but not as valuable as 1st line centres, especially when we have a #1D already (Phaneuf), as well as Gardiner who most would say has top pairing potential, and Rielly who has #1D potential.

I see Jet's fans point of view though. This really comes down to whether people believe Kadri is a potential #1C.
As a Jets fan I think you have got it right with this post. It's not about the players as much as team needs.

I would agree with you that a number 1C is more valuable than a shut down D man but I am not sure I that a number 1C is more valuable than a number 1 all situations D man. I would argue Bogosian is already our number 1 D man although he is asked to play the shut down roll he still puts up decent O numbers.

To your point what's not to like about Kadri? The only thing I want to see is a larger sample size with a normalized shooting % against the tougher assignments that come with playing on the number 1 line. that is his next challenge but the leafs do appear to have an answer to fill a big roll and to your point why would you trade that away for a number 1 Type D man when you already have Phaneuf filling that roll?


Last edited by ps241: 05-08-2013 at 07:47 AM.
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05-08-2013, 07:48 AM
  #61
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I would keep Kadri and stop with all the ridiculous proposals.

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05-08-2013, 10:14 AM
  #62
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The biggest Kadri hater on the entire Internet wants to trade him, how surprising.

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Old
05-08-2013, 10:45 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Kulleroinen View Post
Really? Care to show something which even resembles of Kadri overrating by leafs fans? I can't think of anything.
Sure, check out every single Sam Gagner thread on here ever.

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05-08-2013, 10:47 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
Yeah, I really doubt Winnepeg would do that.
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Originally Posted by CoachBadkitten View Post
Winnipeg says no.
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Originally Posted by spOiler View Post
.... not a very good deal for the peg
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Originally Posted by Jets4Life View Post
How about the Leafs throw in Lupul and Reimer, and we'll talk....
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Originally Posted by WJG View Post
Bogo for Kadri?

No way in hell.
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
Not a chance.
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Originally Posted by tgo0 View Post
This is pretty terrible.
You can't make this stuff up.

Kadri for Bogosian would go down as one of the worst trades Toronto has made in the last 20 years and they've made some terrible ones.

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05-08-2013, 11:09 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Anth93 View Post
You can't make this stuff up.

Kadri for Bogosian would go down as one of the worst trades Toronto has made in the last 20 years and they've made some terrible ones.
hmmm......"you can't make this stuff up"? You seem to be questioning our fan bases take on this? Do you think this is a good deal for Winnipeg and if so why?

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05-08-2013, 11:46 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
hmmm......"you can't make this stuff up"? You seem to be questioning our fan bases take on this? Do you think this is a good deal for Winnipeg and if so why?
I am questioning your fan bases take on it. I think it's crazy to ever turn down a deal that involves a premier offensive player for a defense first Dman who's analytics are very questionable.

Bogosian is a great player, would do wonders for Toronto. But he doesn't turn the 5th worst team in the NHL into a 5th seed like Kadri was largely responsible for.

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05-08-2013, 11:58 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Anth93 View Post
I am questioning your fan bases take on it. I think it's crazy to ever turn down a deal that involves a premier offensive player for a defense first Dman who's analytics are very questionable.

Bogosian is a great player, would do wonders for Toronto. But he doesn't turn the 5th worst team in the NHL into a 5th seed like Kadri was largely responsible for.
Except he finished top 5 for 5v5 points per ice time minute. While facing the fourth hardest competition among defensemen with over five games. He was on pace for 35 points, with no time on the top PP unit..he's a two way defender.

What analytics are questionable?

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05-08-2013, 12:10 PM
  #68
Anth93
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Except he finished top 5 for 5v5 points per ice time minute. While facing the fourth hardest competition among defensemen with over five games. He was on pace for 35 points, with no time on the top PP unit..he's a two way defender.

What analytics are questionable?
If only this were true...

20th most difficult QOC. 27th in OZone %. 123rd in Corsi Rel (I don't really put much into this).

It's not that he's not great. It's that he's not great enough to warrant being swapped for a 22 year old C who just scored at a 77 point pace over 48 games. It'd be foolish for Toronto much more than it would be for Winnipeg.

Either way, neither player is ever getting traded. This is all speculation and why wouldn't you want to boost your player up?

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05-08-2013, 12:39 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Anth93 View Post
If only this were true...

20th most difficult QOC. 27th in OZone %. 123rd in Corsi Rel (I don't really put much into this).

It's not that he's not great. It's that he's not great enough to warrant being swapped for a 22 year old C who just scored at a 77 point pace over 48 games. It'd be foolish for Toronto much more than it would be for Winnipeg.

Either way, neither player is ever getting traded. This is all speculation and why wouldn't you want to boost your player up?
Of defensemen with 5 games played, I was incorrect. Bogosian is fifth, not fourth. And you clearly know something about advanced stats, so how long do you think Kadri will sustain his 14.44 on ice shooting percentage?

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05-08-2013, 12:53 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Anth93 View Post
I am questioning your fan bases take on it. I think it's crazy to ever turn down a deal that involves a premier offensive player for a defense first Dman who's analytics are very questionable.

Bogosian is a great player, would do wonders for Toronto. But he doesn't turn the 5th worst team in the NHL into a 5th seed like Kadri was largely responsible for.
Pretty sure it it had more to do with the coaching change and having a healthy Reimer. Kadri didn't make your Pk go from 29th (or 30th...I forget) to 2nd in the league in one season.

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05-08-2013, 01:33 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Anth93 View Post
I am questioning your fan bases take on it. I think it's crazy to ever turn down a deal that involves a premier offensive player for a defense first Dman who's analytics are very questionable.

Bogosian is a great player, would do wonders for Toronto. But he doesn't turn the 5th worst team in the NHL into a 5th seed like Kadri was largely responsible for.
A few points I would like to debate (since we actually aren't making the trade )

My take as a Jets fan....Ron Hainsey (who was our shut down D man with Bogo) is set to go the UFA route and if we were to trade Bogosian for Kadri our D might look like this:

(1st pair) Buff and Toby (O pairing)

(2nd pair) XXXX or Clitsome (?) and XXXX (as our D pairing)

(3rd pair) Stewart and Postma/ Redmond


currently we have a hole to fill in the top 4 at the LHD shut down spot and we are hoping Clitsome can fill it, however even though he improved this year he is not suited to the shut down roll so it is a stretch. Trouba is a nice prospect but most likely he splits time between the AHL and NHL next season and plays sheltered minutes in the bottom pair. Stuie is a warrior but is a disaster as a top 4 D man. Postma and Reds are more O first bottom pairing types at this time.

Our big three are Buff (excellent rover who shows up when he wants to), Toby who is very good but is running into injury issues now, and Bogosian who is the best of the 3 and 6 years younger.......then we have a huge fall off to the rest of the D men with Hainsey leaving. We simply can't afford to move Bogosian!

Ok for now lets throw out the advanced stats and go with a basic stat. In 2011-12 Bogosian played in a shutdown roll and on our 2nd PP unit (behind Buff) and still put up .46 PPG. That was the same as Doughty, Seabrook, and Subban who all played with real partners and 2 of them on the 1st PP unit. Bogo would have been the top scoring defender on 7 teams and a top 2 scoring defender on 24 teams. Even coming off wrist surgery this past season, missing time at the beginning of the year getting off to slow start still he put up .42 PPG. Those are very productive numbers and puts him in a very small group of guys who play the shut down roll and can still score. In his blended roll you would be within your right to use the term "premier"

I really like what Kardi would do to our top 6 fwd grouping but if we are splitting hairs on analytics on Bogo I would counter that I would like to see a larger sample size for Kadri with a normalized shooting % (16.8% is not sustainable). If he goes out next season and puts up 70 plus points then I will join you in calling him premier offensive player.

Although you watch Toronto more than me and I will trust you that Kardi made a big difference in Toronto's standings this season I would also say having your goaltending go from .901 save % in 2011-12 to having Reimer at a .924 save % this season is a massive change as well so I don't think you can put it all at Kadri's feet.

I get that you might think it would be crazy for the Jets to turn down a deal for Kadri but the hole Bogosian leaves is too big in our current roster.

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Old
05-08-2013, 01:36 PM
  #72
Bernier the Boats
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Of defensemen with 5 games played, I was incorrect. Bogosian is fifth, not fourth. And you clearly know something about advanced stats, so how long do you think Kadri will sustain his 14.44 on ice shooting percentage?
Actually over 3 years of sample size in the AHL Kadri's shooting percentage was 13.9%. He takes quality shots and is more of a playmaker. Anyways, even if the shooting % does regress to 11% or so, he was still on a 70 point pace.

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05-08-2013, 01:47 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by BudMovin View Post
Pretty sure it it had more to do with the coaching change and having a healthy Reimer. Kadri didn't make your Pk go from 29th (or 30th...I forget) to 2nd in the league in one season.
Reimer was the biggest part of it, Kadri was second.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Of defensemen with 5 games played, I was incorrect. Bogosian is fifth, not fourth. And you clearly know something about advanced stats, so how long do you think Kadri will sustain his 14.44 on ice shooting percentage?
Alright I don't know what stat you're looking at, he isn't in the top 5 for QOC. In fact he's not even close.

Kadri won't sustain a 14.44%. Just like he probably won't put up 77 points in a season. Nobody really cares. He's still our #1 C of the future.

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Old
05-08-2013, 01:52 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
I get that you might think it would be crazy for the Jets to turn down a deal for Kadri but the hole Bogosian leaves is too big in our current roster.
Absolutely fair, but it's still poor asset management to turn down this trade. Leafs could really use Luke Schenn for these playoffs, but yet JVR has been our best forward. However, these players aren't comparable.

I'm not going to debate you on the details, because frankly it's just not worth it. Both players are staying and both will play a huge part on their team.

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05-08-2013, 02:08 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Anth93 View Post
You can't make this stuff up.

Kadri for Bogosian would go down as one of the worst trades Toronto has made in the last 20 years and they've made some terrible ones.
Something something Kessel.
Yadda yadda yadda Rask.

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