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Old
05-08-2013, 07:29 PM
  #626
doobie604
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Patrick Kane is Dominating - (0g,5a = 5pts,4games,+4)
Patrick Sharp is Dominating - (4g,1a = 5pts,4games,+5)
Jonathan Toews is Not Dominating - (0g,0a = 0pts,4games, 0) = The Invisible Man?

So are we ok if we had Toews with 0 points through 4 games? Their other lines are picking up the slack, we don't have that luxury. They also didn't lose their PMD and built upon their skill instead of trying to turn in to a defensive team.

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05-08-2013, 07:31 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
Toews has done very little in the series. As with Kesler, he isn't paid to simply check. He's paid and expected to put up points. If he doesn't they will be bounced in the 2nd or 3rd round, because in most cases having one line score will not result in success. But of course they don't just have one line scoring...they have 4th line players with 2 and 3 points in 4 games. Hmmm that depth scoring....something the canucks lack.

To say they are regularly shut down in the playoffs is a complete misrepresentation. that line isn't going to contribute much more than a goal a game over the course of the playoffs and that is exactly what they've done. Including this series. They aren't Crosby (who btw has had some stinker series as well).

So to sum up...to me the question isn't so much "why can't the Sedins score at a 100 point pace in the playoffs (which is what most are suggesting should be)" or "why do they get shut down by top defenders more in the playoffs than the regular season"

but

"why is it that unless the Sedins or Kesler score at a 100+ point pace in a series does the team stand no chance?"

When a team makes the final they have those depth guys step up and have a phenomenal series or two. In the final appearance the team was on the back of an obviously hobbled Henrik, who hurt his back/leg significantly in the Nashville series, against the Sharks. Kesler put the team on his back against the Preds the series before. The first round was pretty even play and no one really stepped up. The final no one stepped up (maybe no one was capable given the injury situation). Last year Henrik was the only forward that did show up against the Kings. He certainly did what he could with 2 G and 3A in 5 games.

no you can say what you like but the Sedins and, in particular Henrik, have put this team on their back more often than not. Kesler to a certain extent has as well. But you need other guys to do that and it simply doesn't happen for this club. They need to sstop waiting for those three and the goaltender to steal a series and steal one for themselves.
Fantastic post.

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05-08-2013, 07:52 PM
  #628
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For all of you who still think the Sedins had a good series, here is their aggregate chances for and against:

Henrik: 13 chances for, 19 chances against (even strength)
Daniel: 12 chances for, 19 chances against (even strength)

and if you take out game 2:

Henrik: 5 chances for, 16 chances against
Daniel: 5 chances for, 15 chances against

These two were absolutely dominated at even strength by the opposition.

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05-08-2013, 08:03 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
For all of you who still think the Sedins had a good series, here is their aggregate chances for and against:

Henrik: 13 chances for, 19 chances against (even strength)
Daniel: 12 chances for, 19 chances against (even strength)

and if you take out game 2:

Henrik: 5 chances for, 16 chances against
Daniel: 5 chances for, 15 chances against

These two were absolutely dominated at even strength by the opposition.
Why would you?

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05-08-2013, 08:13 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
For all of you who still think the Sedins had a good series, here is their aggregate chances for and against:

Henrik: 13 chances for, 19 chances against (even strength)
Daniel: 12 chances for, 19 chances against (even strength)

and if you take out game 2:

Henrik: 5 chances for, 16 chances against
Daniel: 5 chances for, 15 chances against

These two were absolutely dominated at even strength by the opposition.
Curious..why do you take games out that don't suit you? Are you really this little of a person?

Run the numbers for the rest of the team as well while you're at it. The Sedins did not dominate, they were however adequate. They had easily the toughest matchup to play against and ended up a combined -2, and their line led the team in scoring again...including tying it up the last game and cutting the lead to 1 in the 3rd. You can ignore this point since you have a tendency to pick at stuff that is largely irrelevant.

This is a much bigger problem that your brain pretends doesn't exist with this team: Hansen, Higgins, Kassian, Roy- combined for 1 point...and that was the 5-2 goal in a blowout loss.

Furthermore , even though he's my favorite player, it's easy for me to see that Cory effed up. He wasn't horrendous but he should never have let in 3 or more of the goals in the last 2 games, which could have been the difference between coming back 2-2 and losing 4-0.

The two biggest factors in this series however :

1) AV- we saw what the team could do if they were aggressive, carrying pucks into the zone instead of the passive tip in from center bs we have been seeing for a while. Your offensive players can't produce playing like this. Also something I hope people realize...our offence when we led the league in scoring wasn't because our forwards were better. It was because our defence was so active, it honestly causes so much confusion when they get involved in the cycle or creep in back door. This is what opened up so much room for the twins and co. It's the biggest change this team has made the last 3 seasons, getting away from that.

2) Officiating. No two ways around it. For the people crying about Torres being let go--> you do ****ing realize if he was here he would be in the penalty box all game right? ( if not suspended) Daniel ****ing Sedin got a boarding penalty on a shoulder to shoulder hit in OT for **** sakes. Yeah the pk sucked, but it's way too hard to play when you are getting boned as bad as we were. Not only does it cause you to be shorthanded so much, it changes how you approach the game.

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05-08-2013, 08:14 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Why would you?
Well it shows they had one game where they dictated the play, and in the other 3 games combined they were dominated.

I don't know why, but it seems like a lot of people here love to jump all over the exception to the rule, as opposed to eliminating the outlier and analyzing what their play was like most of the time.

In 75% of the playoff games this year the Sedins were dominated. Happy?

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05-08-2013, 08:17 PM
  #632
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Originally Posted by Lundface View Post
Curious..why do you take games out that don't suit you? Are you really this little of a person?

Run the numbers for the rest of the team as well while you're at it. The Sedins did not dominate, they were however adequate. They had easily the toughest matchup to play against and ended up a combined -2, and their line led the team in scoring again...including tying it up the last game and cutting the lead to 1 in the 3rd. You can ignore this point since you have a tendency to pick at stuff that is largely irrelevant.

This is a much bigger problem that your brain pretends doesn't exist with this team: Hansen, Higgins, Kassian, Roy- combined for 1 point...and that was the 5-2 goal in a blowout loss.

Furthermore , even though he's my favorite player, it's easy for me to see that Cory effed up. He wasn't horrendous but he should never have let in 3 or more of the goals in the last 2 games, which could have been the difference between coming back 2-2 and losing 4-0.

The two biggest factors in this series however :

1) AV- we saw what the team could do if they were aggressive, carrying pucks into the zone instead of the passive tip in from center bs we have been seeing for a while. Your offensive players can't produce playing like this. Also something I hope people realize...our offence when we led the league in scoring wasn't because our forwards were better. It was because our defence was so active, it honestly causes so much confusion when they get involved in the cycle or creep in back door. This is what opened up so much room for the twins and co. It's the biggest change this team has made the last 3 seasons, getting away from that.

2) Officiating. No two ways around it. For the people crying about Torres being let go--> you do ****ing realize if he was here he would be in the penalty box all game right? ( if not suspended) Daniel ****ing Sedin got a boarding penalty on a shoulder to shoulder hit in OT for **** sakes. Yeah the pk sucked, but it's way too hard to play when you are getting boned as bad as we were. Not only does it cause you to be shorthanded so much, it changes how you approach the game.
They had the toughest matchup to play against? Who was that? Vlasic and Braun?

The Sedins most certainly were not adequate. They were subpar and no-showed the Series. I don't care that they had a couple of meaningless assists on 3 total goals this series. They didn't do anything out there that dictated the play. They weren't dangerous and generating a lot of chances in most of the games. They were getting dominated in their own zone. They got absolutely slaughtered in puck possession. The Sedins started in the offensive zone around 68% of the time, and finished in the offensive zone only 38% of the time.

Yes, the secondary scoring was terrible too. I've been saying this for eons yet somehow some people claim this as "confirmation bias." But that still doesn't excuse the teams "leaders" from disappearing.

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05-08-2013, 08:25 PM
  #633
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
They had the toughest matchup to play against? Who was that? Vlasic and Braun?

The Sedins most certainly were not adequate. They were subpar and no-showed the Series. I don't care that they had a couple of meaningless assists on 3 total goals this series. They didn't do anything out there that dictated the play. They weren't dangerous and generating a lot of chances in most of the games. They were getting dominated in their own zone. They got absolutely slaughtered in puck possession. The Sedins started in the offensive zone around 68% of the time, and finished in the offensive zone only 38% of the time.

Yes, the secondary scoring was terrible too. I've been saying this for eons yet somehow some people claim this as "confirmation bias." But that still doesn't excuse the teams "leaders" from disappearing.
Notice how I even told you to ignore that point..and that is exactly your problem, you see whatever you want to see.

Couture/Marleau is what I was referring to but keep laughing. Notice how Couture has 8 points in 4 games and ended up -1. Our PK was dreadful. As much as people like to pretend Kesler is some superhero, he was atrocious outside of 2 goals. Both of which were set up on a platter for him.


Last edited by JeffMangum: 05-08-2013 at 08:31 PM.
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05-08-2013, 08:29 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
They had the toughest matchup to play against? Who was that? Vlasic and Braun?

The Sedins most certainly were not adequate. They were subpar and no-showed the Series. I don't care that they had a couple of meaningless assists on 3 total goals this series. They didn't do anything out there that dictated the play. They weren't dangerous and generating a lot of chances in most of the games. They were getting dominated in their own zone. They got absolutely slaughtered in puck possession. The Sedins started in the offensive zone around 68% of the time, and finished in the offensive zone only 38% of the time.

Yes, the secondary scoring was terrible too. I've been saying this for eons yet somehow some people claim this as "confirmation bias." But that still doesn't excuse the teams "leaders" from disappearing.
Please stop with the stupidity, how were their assists "meaningless"?

game 2: assists on tying goal in 3rd period
game 3: assists on goal to bring team within 1 goal
game 4: assists on tying goal in the 3rd period

If those points are meaningless what is considered meaningful to you?

Also, you don't get to just take out one of their games and use the rest of the games when it suits your argument. I've seen how you react when some people pick and choose games in the boston series to show that luongo is the worst goalie in the universe. You would earn a lot more respect around here if you could actually even attempt to not let your petty biases cloud your judgement.

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05-08-2013, 08:30 PM
  #635
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So are we ok if we had Toews with 0 points through 4 games?
Ask me when we're up 3-1 in a series.

 
Old
05-08-2013, 08:32 PM
  #636
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Also, you don't get to just take out one of their games and use the rest of the games when it suits your argument.
That's not what he did. By taking that one game out, he actually made the Sedins look *better*.

Before: Sedins were bad across the entire seires
After: Sedins were bad in three games but did have a good game as well

 
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05-08-2013, 08:34 PM
  #637
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Ask me when we're up 3-1 in a series.
That's exactly the point. We never will be if the Sedins are off the scoresheet. We have no scoring depth.

Still waiting for an answer from y2kcanucks as to who on the Canucks have been better playoff players than the Sedins while they were first liners. Tick tock...

Face the facts - our best players have indeed been our best players. It's the lack of depth that's screwed the team, in addition to injuries and atrocious officiating.


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05-08-2013, 09:45 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
For all of you who still think the Sedins had a good series, here is their aggregate chances for and against:

Henrik: 13 chances for, 19 chances against (even strength)
Daniel: 12 chances for, 19 chances against (even strength)

and if you take out game 2:

Henrik: 5 chances for, 16 chances against
Daniel: 5 chances for, 15 chances against

These two were absolutely dominated at even strength by the opposition.
I don't believe anyone said they played well in the series (I did say Henrikl played well last season against the Kings and he did. Daniel played as well as could be expected in his two games). I said they were not and have not been the problem. There is a large difference between the two statements.


What were the other players chances for and against like? My guess is that the Sedin line dominates the scoring chance stat for the canucks.


Guess who the Corsi leaders for the canucks were? Kesler, Burrows, Sedin, Sedin up front. Garrison and Hanhuis on the blueline. Not saying they were pretty Corsi numbers but every single line got outplayed and it was the other lines that got outplayed more.

They weren't great. No one has said otherwise but while they may have been average the others were simply terrible and that is the major problem. Let's face it even if they are good enough to get through a series or two by putting the team on their backs if the rest of the roster is playing brutal hockey they will never win the cup or expect to get further than the second round anyways. It's also amazing what can happen when a line actually gets that scoring support and forces the opposition to adjust things in response to that secondary scoring. It makes it very easy on a team if they never have to change game plan because only 3 or 4 players can do anything offensively.


Last edited by tantalum: 05-08-2013 at 10:11 PM.
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Old
05-08-2013, 09:49 PM
  #639
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Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
I don't believe anyone said they played well. I said they were not and have not been the problem. There is a large difference between the two statements.

Also how absolutely disingenous to leave off 25% of the games. Why not leave off the worst game of the 4?

What were the other players chances for and against like? My guess is that with the exception of the Sedin line dominates that stat for the canucks.


Guess who the Corsi leaders for the canucks were? Kesler, Burrows, Sedin, Sedin up front. Garrison and Hanhuis on the blueline.

They weren't great. No one has said otherwise but while they may have been average the others were simply terrible and that is the major problem. It's also amazing what can happen when a line actually gets that scoring support and forces the opposition to adjust things in response to that secondary scoring. It makes it very easy on a team if they never have to change game plan because only 3 or 4 players can do anything offensively.
So are the Sedins leaders, or passengers? I'd buy what you're selling if they are passengers, but if they're supposed to be leaders than everything you have said here doesn't make much sense. Leaders don't need to rely on someone else to make them play better. Leaders don't completely no-show an entire series. The Sedins were again poor both offensively and defensively this series. No, that doesn't mean the rest of the team was fine. But the Sedins deserve the brunt of the blame because of their position on our roster as the leaders.

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05-08-2013, 09:51 PM
  #640
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I do not have their stats wrong.... check it out yourself... hockeydb.com. Don't include the years they weren't playing in the NHL.

yeah you do. Notice how the left hand side says "NHL TOTALS". For henrik

NHL Totals 940 182 610 792 534 99 22 52 74 56

The site has already excluded non-NHL games. Feel free total things up yourself.

So including all playoff games including those they were not getting anything close to top line time and Henrik has over a 60 point playoff pace. And as I said for the last 5 years is essentially a PPG playoff player. He isn't and Daniel isn't the problem.

Or you can go to NHL.com which only totals up NHL points and see that they have the same numbers.


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05-08-2013, 10:16 PM
  #641
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So are the Sedins leaders, or passengers? I'd buy what you're selling if they are passengers, but if they're supposed to be leaders than everything you have said here doesn't make much sense. Leaders don't need to rely on someone else to make them play better. Leaders don't completely no-show an entire series. The Sedins were again poor both offensively and defensively this series. No, that doesn't mean the rest of the team was fine. But the Sedins deserve the brunt of the blame because of their position on our roster as the leaders.
Oh come on, no one can walk away from this series smiling. Not one player. Well maybe corrado ...

To lay it all on the Sedins who did exactly what they have always done, play solidly game in and game out, is unrealistic. Nobody had a good series. Nobody.

And we have no options. we have no cap space. There is no one we can sign who will solve our dilemmas. We have 3 major cap hits that really need to be taken care of. Booth, Luongo and Ballard. luongo has been great, though he was really mediocre (that's putting it kindly) in his last 2 RS games and the playoffs.

Our D corps should be good next year: Bieska, Hamhuis, Edler, Garrison, Tanev and Corrado.

Our Goaltending is very good - should be Schneids and Lack (or Cannata) next year.

Our forward corps should be ... well should be okay:

Sedins and Burrows
Kes with Higgins and roy (If he will sign for less that he probably will) or Kassian
Raymond Schroeder Hansen

and Jensen, Gaunce and Lain trying for a spot any of those 3 lines ...

With Sestito Pinno Weise Lapierre fighting for the 4th

Yes, the sedins are probably starting to decline, but its not like we are going to go out and buy a Rick Nash type player with the fact we are already in cap hell. If some of our ELC depth players don't become borderline 1st line players soon we have some challenges.

In my simple opinion - we really need to give Schroeder a full season in the NHL and see what he can do. AV needs to start going with what has been proven to work namely the 3 lines listed above, or he's about done. We really need to start getting some production out of our newbies, namely Schroeder, Gaunce, Jensen and Kassian (and maybe Lain).

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05-08-2013, 10:19 PM
  #642
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Oh and I love the brilliant scenarios that all involve trading players with NTC's. Not going to happen. Can you imagine also if the sedins decided to retire, and we had to deal with their cap hit and not have them playing? LOL.

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05-08-2013, 10:23 PM
  #643
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Oh come on, no one can walk away from this series smiling. Not one player. Well maybe corrado ...

To lay it all on the Sedins who did exactly what they have always done, play solidly game in and game out, is unrealistic. Nobody had a good series. Nobody.

And we have no options. we have no cap space. There is no one we can sign who will solve our dilemmas. We have 3 major cap hits that really need to be taken care of. Booth, Luongo and Ballard. luongo has been great, though he was really mediocre (that's putting it kindly) in his last 2 RS games and the playoffs.

Our D corps should be good next year: Bieska, Hamhuis, Edler, Garrison, Tanev and Corrado.

Our Goaltending is very good - should be Schneids and Lack (or Cannata) next year.

Our forward corps should be ... well should be okay:

Sedins and Burrows
Kes with Higgins and roy (If he will sign for less that he probably will) or Kassian
Raymond Schroeder Hansen

and Jensen, Gaunce and Lain trying for a spot any of those 3 lines ...

With Sestito Pinno Weise Lapierre fighting for the 4th

Yes, the sedins are probably starting to decline, but its not like we are going to go out and buy a Rick Nash type player with the fact we are already in cap hell. If some of our ELC depth players don't become borderline 1st line players soon we have some challenges.

In my simple opinion - we really need to give Schroeder a full season in the NHL and see what he can do. AV needs to start going with what has been proven to work namely the 3 lines listed above, or he's about done. We really need to start getting some production out of our newbies, namely Schroeder, Gaunce, Jensen and Kassian (and maybe Lain).
I disagree strongly that they played solidly game in and game out. After every game people had been complaining about how invisible the Sedins had been, so to look back now and say they played solid is really ignoring how they actually played and just saying they were solid because anything less and we'd actually have to do something to address it.

Also that's essentially the same team that we had this year. I'm not sure why you would want that. The team proved it's not good enough, so bringing it back for another shot is really just wasting another year.

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05-08-2013, 10:30 PM
  #644
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05-08-2013, 10:34 PM
  #645
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Daniel's at, what, 11 playoff games without a goal? One goal in 16?

That's like four sweeps.

 
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05-08-2013, 10:39 PM
  #646
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Not sure why anyone feels the need to whitewash what was a poor series by the Sedins. It doesn't mean they can't excel in the playoffs (they have in the past) or that they're over the hill. But they weren't the players Vancouver needed to be. They looked weak, lost a lot of puck battles, and generated very little of consequence in terms of scoring chances.

But they're certainly not alone. I'm having trouble thinking of any Canucks that actually played well. And even with a normal offense, it's tough to win when your goalies can't keep the opposition to fewer than 3 goals in any of the games.

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05-08-2013, 10:43 PM
  #647
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Daniel's at, what, 11 playoff games without a goal? One goal in 16?

That's like four sweeps.
But but our depth players are not scoring and are to blame

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05-08-2013, 10:44 PM
  #648
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Daniel's at, what, 11 playoff games without a goal? One goal in 16?

That's like four sweeps.
This. I can appreciate people going to great lengths to prove that the Sedins are doing fine in the playoffs, or that the Canucks' playoff failures are not their fault. However, it really comes down to simple things like what this poster said. 1 goal in 16 playoff games. Candy coat it all you want, that's not good enough. When you're a top player like Daniel Sedin, you find a way to score at least a few more goals than that, no matter what the seconday scoring situation is.

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05-08-2013, 10:45 PM
  #649
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
Not sure why anyone feels the need to whitewash what was a poor series by the Sedins. It doesn't mean they can't excel in the playoffs (they have in the past) or that they're over the hill. But they weren't the players Vancouver needed to be. They looked weak, lost a lot of puck battles, and generated very little of consequence in terms of scoring chances.

But they're certainly not alone. I'm having trouble thinking of any Canucks that actually played well. And even with a normal offense, it's tough to win when your goalies can't keep the opposition to fewer than 3 goals in any of the games.

The Sedins/Burrows/Kesler were average to me. Not poor. Their shot differential was still strong. They didn't look their best, but they did enough so that if anyone chose to follow, they would have a base to work with.

VAN needed players at a 2 points per game pace, be it the Sedins or anyone else. It didn't happen, and here we are.

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05-08-2013, 10:46 PM
  #650
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That said, secondary scoring is a problem as well. This whole team is not good enough and that's the simple truth. Issues everywhere.

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