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kelly sutherland beef with Canucks?

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Old
05-08-2013, 07:30 PM
  #101
Moore Money
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
Nothing is going to happen to Sutherland...he's one of the leagues favorite officials and reffed in the 2010 and 2011 finals.

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/life...rland-referee/

It's obvious that the referees are a community that we have offended. We can keep fighting the good fight but it would be a losing battle every time. Maybe we should hire Kerry Fraser as a special advisor.
something needs to be done.. maybe draft a ref or front office son? hire an x-ref into management? Hire Auger as a water boy?

how do we know it doesnt continue after a complete rebuild? Maybe he doesnt like the aquilini's.

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05-08-2013, 07:37 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by mrmyheadhurts View Post
You're right, PP time is actually a much fairer representation. You could get a PP and then say, get a garbage penalty for gloving the puck off the draw, and negate the PP after 4 seconds. Still counts as an 0 for 1 on the scoresheet but it hardly represents equal opportunity. Conversely you could convert early too. Neither measurement does justice to the whole picture I suppose.

It could've been the way he worded it that confused me.

If you just add up penalty minutes, the discrepancy is 24. If you look at PP opportunities, the discrepancy is 6.

I still don't know what he's referencing when he says there is a 30min differential.
He's talking about San Jose being given 15 more 2 min PP opportunities which is what happened.

PP time isn't particularly useful since it under represents an effective PP. In your first example of a team being taken off of the PP immediately by taking a penalty doesn't really matter because it comes out as a wash since the other team would get a 4 second PP as well. They'd be even in PP time and PP opportunities.

However when a team scores on its PP (as the Sharks did 7 times in 4 games) it cuts the time way down without cutting the benefit down. The Sharks for instance only used 4:50 of the 14 minutes to get their 7 PP goals. I don't think anyone would try to argue that those minutes were only as valuable as 2.5 minor penalties.

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05-08-2013, 07:43 PM
  #103
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I don't know why the whole world seems to think Bieksa called out the referees. He in fact called out the embellishment from the Sharks, saying that it makes it tough on the referees, because it is difficult to make split second judgement calls. There is a big difference.

That aside, after the Auger incident, I have zero confidence in the integrity of referees, and there is nothing I have seen since to change that.

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05-08-2013, 07:57 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by PoolChamp View Post
something needs to be done.. maybe draft a ref or front office son? hire an x-ref into management? Hire Auger as a water boy?

how do we know it doesnt continue after a complete rebuild? Maybe he doesnt like the aquilini's.
I assume you are being sarcastic with some of this stuff but I honestly see the who NHL as a corrupt organization. As a result, you have to be willing to play the game internally with the league and its officials to get anywhere, we don't seem to be doing enough.

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05-08-2013, 08:02 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
This. Believe me, I witnessed two ******** calls on both my teams last night that cost them games. Ottawa got away with absolute murder against Montreal. Game one between Minnesota and Chicago was so laughably bad on officiating both sides at four blatantly wrong calls half way through.

The officiating has been joke all season. There is no Canucks conspiracy.
If the officiating is actually equally bad both ways wouldn't you expect PP to be somewhat close to even?

TOR +3
NYR +3
SJS +14
MIN +4
STL +3
OTT +6
PIT +0
ANA +1


Every other series is pretty close. Ottawa/Montreal has been a crazy series penalty wise and is still not that lopsided.

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05-08-2013, 08:30 PM
  #106
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I don't understand this persistent view that the Canucks brought this on themselves - that their history of diving, embellishing and whining has caught up with them.

It should not matter. These are referees in one of the "big 4" North American leagues. They are supposed to be the very best and most professional at their jobs.

Their only job is to referee individual games with impartiality and professionalism - they should not be looking at the logo on the front or the name on the back. Anything less is bush league.

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05-08-2013, 10:54 PM
  #107
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http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...415/story.html

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05-08-2013, 11:28 PM
  #108
Jack Tripper
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out of curiosity, just finished listening to a 10am podcast of matt sekeres going off on the officiating

"the canucks weren't the only losers...television viewers lost, the sport of hockey lost, the credibility of the nhl lost, and the concept of honest officiating lost...compared to all that, the canucks loss amounts to small potatoes"

almost fell out of my chair when i heard that, what an absolute drama queen...is he always like that? no wonder vancouver media members get a reputation around the league that's as detestable as the team

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05-09-2013, 12:10 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by neksys View Post
It should not matter.
Of course it should matter. Vast majority of calls and non-calls are judgement calls - can go either. If a player involved has a history of diving or a history of never diving or a history of "malignant" play then absolutely YES that knowledge should factor in how the ref makes the judgement call.

When making split second decisions on incomplete knowledge, reputation 100% should be taken into account.

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05-09-2013, 12:11 AM
  #110
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If the officiating is actually equally bad both ways wouldn't you expect PP to be somewhat close to even?
There is no a priori reason to jump to that conclusion.

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05-09-2013, 12:44 AM
  #111
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Every other team does the same crap that the Canucks are accused of too, the diving? There's been all kinds of diving these first few games and the vast majority was not by the Canucks. Talking to the officials, trying to get an edge? You've got to be joking, every team does it, Toronto and Boston are doing it, the coaches and the players, Habs and Ottawa are doing it. Look at Jackman, making that face, everyone is doing it because the officials are screwing everyone. Maybe they screwed us worse but they are doing it to other teams too.

So to say, the Canucks need to stop this, the Canucks need to stop that, no. Just no. If anything, we need to stop playing that game completely and just roll with it. If the ref makes a bad call let him have it. If you don't like it, sure, tell the media. What, can it get worse than 24 to 10? Sure it can but we get swept either way, what do we have to lose? Playing nice never got us anywhere, we did better when everyone hated us and we didn't care. We went all of last season with no supplementary discipline and what did it get us? The Keith/Sedin decision, that's what. So why even play that game and pretend like it's gonna change? Certainly making personnel decisions based on what you think will make the officials like us more and not screw us is a fool's errand of the worst kind.

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05-09-2013, 12:51 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Smokey McCanucks View Post
Every other team does the same crap that the Canucks are accused of too, the diving? There's been all kinds of diving these first few games and the vast majority was not by the Canucks. Talking to the officials, trying to get an edge? You've got to be joking, every team does it, Toronto and Boston are doing it, the coaches and the players, Habs and Ottawa are doing it. Look at Jackman, making that face, everyone is doing it because the officials are screwing everyone. Maybe they screwed us worse but they are doing it to other teams too.

So to say, the Canucks need to stop this, the Canucks need to stop that, no. Just no. If anything, we need to stop playing that game completely and just roll with it. If the ref makes a bad call let him have it. If you don't like it, sure, tell the media. What, can it get worse than 24 to 10? Sure it can but we get swept either way, what do we have to lose? Playing nice never got us anywhere, we did better when everyone hated us and we didn't care. We went all of last season with no supplementary discipline and what did it get us? The Keith/Sedin decision, that's what. So why even play that game and pretend like it's gonna change? Certainly making personnel decisions based on what you think will make the officials like us more and not screw us is a fool's errand of the worst kind.
Nobody takes it to the media at the same level the Canucks do. I don't think it can be debated. Sure other teams dive, Lupul did tonight, Brown does a few times per game and they don't get blasted like we do, but we go above and beyond just diving, talking to the refs, and making faces.

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05-09-2013, 12:53 AM
  #113
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botchford should realize that he's a gongshow of a reporter at this point. shut the **** up botchford. nobody likes you, nobody respects your retarded opinions.

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Old
05-09-2013, 01:05 AM
  #114
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I actually agree 100% with Botchford, finally somebody goes out and says it like it really is.

Good on him.

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05-09-2013, 01:10 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Promethesis View Post
botchford should realize that he's a gongshow of a reporter at this point. shut the **** up botchford. nobody likes you, nobody respects your retarded opinions.
that article was 100% on point...example:

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It doesnít matter anymore if the Canucks are in the right. It doesnít matter if the Sharks embellished more. It doesnít matter if every 50-50 call went San Joseís way. It doesnít even matter if the refs made calls to settle old scores.

What matters is the Canucks have a loathsome reputation for antagonizing referees, both on the ice and off it, and it seems to have put a target on their backs and itís one they canít seem shake.

It sure hasnít helped them. Instead, the more they complain, the more there is to complain about, creating a vicious cycle they have to end and the only way to do that is silence. A lot of it.

The Sharks did dive more than the Canucks. The calls were inequitable, and in more than a few cases, entirely unfair. Thereís a seven-minute video circulating on YouTube which strings together about a dozen calls. If you donít watch that and leave thinking the Canucks were jobbed, you may be walking through life blindfolded.

For the Canucks, none of this should matter. The reality is they didnít lose because of calls. They lost because they werenít as good as the Sharks.

Try and blame the officials during their locker cleanout today and it only fortifies the narrative that the whiners are at it again, and this time theyíre complaining about calls in a sweep.

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05-09-2013, 01:11 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Promethesis View Post
botchford should realize that he's a gongshow of a reporter at this point. shut the **** up botchford. nobody likes you, nobody respects your retarded opinions.
He's also an abysmal writer.

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Thereís a seven-minute video circulating on YouTube which strings together about a dozen calls. If you donít watch that and leave thinking the Canucks were jobbed, you may be walking through life blindfolded.
Does he not have an editor?

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05-09-2013, 01:12 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Of course it should matter. Vast majority of calls and non-calls are judgement calls - can go either. If a player involved has a history of diving or a history of never diving or a history of "malignant" play then absolutely YES that knowledge should factor in how the ref makes the judgement call.

When making split second decisions on incomplete knowledge, reputation 100% should be taken into account.
if the officials review the video evidence of this series like they should be forced to, it will be interesting to see how many Sharks will get "reputations" for diving if they keep this up. I expect them to start whining when they get called for diving and calls aren't going their way the rest of the playofss.

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05-09-2013, 01:19 AM
  #118
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What I found strange was that Sutherland was pretty much on the other side of the rink when he made the call. The ref right behind the play didn't do anything, that's what bothers me the most IMO.

I doubt Sutherland has a vendetta against the Canucks

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05-09-2013, 01:40 AM
  #119
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Here is the PP opportunities breakdown:

Game 1: 5-3 SJ, 1 SJ PPG

Game 2: 5-3 SJ

Game 3: 11-4 SJ, 3 SJ PPG
5 Van penalties called after 4:07 of 3rd when the scores were 5-1, vs 1 against SJ. There were 1 instance of offsetting minors, so penalties when the game mattered was 5-3.

Game 4: 7-3 SJ, 4 SJ PPG
1 Van penalty to Daniel after the game ended, so more like 6-3. 5-3 during regulation.

Observations:

1. Sharks played more consistently in the series and were consistently penalized 3 times a game. Canucks 5 to 6.

2. From watching the games, I would say the Sharks were more disciplined.

3. Canucks' PK sucked in SJ.

4. Referees might be bad, but seems consistent in terms of number of penalties.

Honestly, I don't think the refs jobbed this series. Canucks were frustrating to watch because they were clearly the inferior team. Inferior teams are not lucky and don't get breaks.

For the Canucks players, there is also a cognitive dissonance. Henrik thinks they played well. They did not. Sharks dominated scoring chances 5 on 5 and walked into the Canucks zone at will.

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05-09-2013, 02:23 AM
  #120
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here is the link to the video

http://www.youtube.com/embed/AJYTOg8JQ2g

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05-09-2013, 02:39 AM
  #121
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I think we can do two things at once.

On the one hand, the better team won.

On the other hand, the reffing was ****ing ridiculous. Just... just bad. I've been watching play-off hockey for a long time, and those calls at the end there are calls you just don't make. You can't have those. You just can't ****ing have them. And the differential was brutal beyond words, so many weak calls and missed calls and goddammit I'm angry again.

I should never have to look at who is reffing before a hockey game to give myself an idea of how many penalties we're getting. That's just wrong.

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05-09-2013, 02:51 AM
  #122
Moore Money
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Originally Posted by JC View Post
here is the link to the video

http://www.youtube.com/embed/AJYTOg8JQ2g
looks like the Sharks were the more disciplined team and the Canucks just got what they deserved for being divers.. mmmhmmm

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05-09-2013, 02:56 AM
  #123
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Sutherland made an absolutely horrid call, but thats all it was.

Do people actually believe tht there is a conspiracy theory against us, where all the officals talk (perhaps in a whatsapp chat group) about making non calls and bad penalty calls ??? I can guarentee you these conversations dont happen. He is just a terrible official, thats all.

Nhl referees if anything would WANT us to win that game and force more playoff games as they get oaid approx 5k per playoff game that they ref. also with the amount if eyes on them, making a purposeful bad call would ensure they wont get more playoff games thus potentially taking an additional 20-40k out of their pocket.

No official hates us enough to take 40k out of their pockets

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05-09-2013, 03:15 AM
  #124
serge2k
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Originally Posted by neksys View Post
I don't understand this persistent view that the Canucks brought this on themselves - that their history of diving, embellishing and whining has caught up with them.

It should not matter. These are referees in one of the "big 4" North American leagues. They are supposed to be the very best and most professional at their jobs.

Their only job is to referee individual games with impartiality and professionalism - they should not be looking at the logo on the front or the name on the back. Anything less is bush league.
The problem there is that refs are wary of making the incorrect call because someone dove.

See the slash on Thornton.

Or see the call on Sedin in OT for an example of the refs desperately not wanting to be wrong. Saw an injury, made an awful call.

What I wonder is, would they have made that call if Gryba hadn't just made a hit and injured someone and caused a big media storm a few days before?

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05-09-2013, 03:20 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by DennisReynolds View Post
What I found strange was that Sutherland was pretty much on the other side of the rink when he made the call. The ref right behind the play didn't do anything, that's what bothers me the most IMO.

I doubt Sutherland has a vendetta against the Canucks
You should get the gang to deal with this.

That happens constantly. One ref makes a call while the guy with the better view doesn't.


How much could be solved if the refs would confer on decisions and reverse penalties when the guy with a better view clearly doesn't think it is a call?

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