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Old
05-09-2013, 11:27 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
I won't be scared of them until they have solid defense and goaltending. They had the 3rd best offense in the league and it didn't help them one bit.
THIS!

Tampa, IMO could get a kings ransom for the #3 pick and solidify their defense. THEN, I would seriously be scared of them.

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05-09-2013, 11:57 AM
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To play devil's advocate against what we're saying with Tampa; they sold out a ton of games, and if not completely sold out, their building was rocking up until the last week or two of the season. Even when they were terrible and had cooled off after the hot start, people were coming out to watch them. Offense, far and away, is much more fun to watch than defense. I'd rather watch an exciting offensive team 10/10 times than a stout defensive team without much offense (I.e. past New Jersey teams). They'll need to shore up their defense to improve, and getting rid of slugs like Ohlund and possibly Brewer will help, but Aulie has some potential, Hedman is getting better and better, and a few other prospects exist that are pretty solid coming up for them.

Already having a guy like Stamkos, in addition to Hedman, and some of their young guys (Killorn etc.) is a good step in the right direction for them. They just need Bishop to turn into a reliable tender and sign 1-2 guys on defense, and they'd be able to contend in the playoffs. It shows how they went from a cup contender, to out of the playoffs, to back contending, to quickly out of it this year, by having their exceptional talent. Defense is easier to fix than offense is in this league. Unfortunately, we have problems with both, and they simply have problems with one.

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05-09-2013, 12:42 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by PanthersRule96 View Post
To play devil's advocate against what we're saying with Tampa; they sold out a ton of games, and if not completely sold out, their building was rocking up until the last week or two of the season. Even when they were terrible and had cooled off after the hot start, people were coming out to watch them. Offense, far and away, is much more fun to watch than defense. I'd rather watch an exciting offensive team 10/10 times than a stout defensive team without much offense (I.e. past New Jersey teams). They'll need to shore up their defense to improve, and getting rid of slugs like Ohlund and possibly Brewer will help, but Aulie has some potential, Hedman is getting better and better, and a few other prospects exist that are pretty solid coming up for them.

Already having a guy like Stamkos, in addition to Hedman, and some of their young guys (Killorn etc.) is a good step in the right direction for them. They just need Bishop to turn into a reliable tender and sign 1-2 guys on defense, and they'd be able to contend in the playoffs. It shows how they went from a cup contender, to out of the playoffs, to back contending, to quickly out of it this year, by having their exceptional talent. Defense is easier to fix than offense is in this league. Unfortunately, we have problems with both, and they simply have problems with one.
All of this is spot on. Just to add to it, they have an excellent marketing department. It literally blows Yormark's tactics out of the water. When I went to a Panthers game in Tampa last season, I was amazed by how much they market the team the right way around the area and how much better their game presentation is to get the fans into it. This was before their new incredibly oversized scoreboard was there too.

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05-09-2013, 01:16 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by FlaPnthrsPunk View Post
All of this is spot on. Just to add to it, they have an excellent marketing department. It literally blows Yormark's tactics out of the water. When I went to a Panthers game in Tampa last season, I was amazed by how much they market the team the right way around the area and how much better their game presentation is to get the fans into it. This was before their new incredibly oversized scoreboard was there too.
It really disappoints me when comparing my experience as a panthers fan growing up in South FLA, going to the games vs. now living in Tampa and going to bolts games. It's so far superior, as you've stated, in terms of game production, excitement, atmosphere, etc. I have to say, the BAC got rocking during the playoffs last year, and I had a lot of fun being there for some games, but the regular season games between the two teams are such a stark contrast. The community rallies around the bolts, people enjoy going to bolts games, ticket departments have smart deals appealing to loyal fans (STH program with the jersey chips, Student ID discounts where for $20, you can sit in the best remaining seats by walking up 15 minutes prior to puck drop (sat 10th row numerous times via this deal, phenomenal) etc. It's sad that Yormark and those other idiots can't take a page out of their book.

I hated the lightning growing up, but living in Tampa now, I support the team when they're not playing the panthers. I still follow the panthers, but keep an eye on the lightning only because so many people in the community are talking about them regardless of how they're performing. It's fun going to games. It's not a cheesy atmosphere either, and the on-ice quality is the focal point of the game. The scoreboard makes a marked difference, but the attitudes there actually reflect what's going on......i.e. the in game hostess doesn't act disproportionally excited and thrilled when they're down 4-0 after the first 10 minutes, unlike panthers games, where it's as if some JV cheerleaders who know nothing about hockey handle it.

Hopefully with MacKinnon and Huberdeau, the offense will come around. Goals are what sell, even when a team isn't winning. Defense is appreciated in tight playoff battles of 1-0 in OT and the like. When the bolts had one of the top offenses in the league, people came to see them score tons of goals. The mood wasn't even that grim when they'd lose if it was a 6-5 SO loss or something like that, because it was fun to attend. The community involvement with the Bolts is also phenomenal here, as opposed to the Panthers involvement. Vinik knows how to run a team, and is giving them a great chance to succeed. Yzerman certainly helps, and had the balls to go out and make a bold deal in shipping out Conacher, realizing the Lindback trade was a huge mistake. It's sad when I envy a team I grew up hating, with regards to the health of their organization and the value of fun in the rink. Granted Tampa's location of the forum is phenomenal, compared to a different population and set-up in Sunrise, but it's a very big step down between the two teams, despite similar records.

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05-09-2013, 04:28 PM
  #30
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How're the Bolts in good health? And there's a ton you're leaving out, such as them not missing for over a decade, a Stanley Cup, etc. Their owner has deeper pockets, by that team has no defense, the goalie situation is still a huge question mark despite the trade (that I think was a mistake), and they don't have the pool we have. When're they gonna figure out that they need defense? They blew up the scoreboard and they still lost.

Envy them, I don't. Nor am I afraid of them, they're a mess.

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05-09-2013, 07:46 PM
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PR, you're neglecting the fact that they have nearly NO money to go out and get those defensemen they so sorely need. They have 17 guys under contract next year and only 3.3 million. Nobody is taking Vinny cause he sucks, so they're pretty much stuck.

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05-09-2013, 08:05 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
How're the Bolts in good health? And there's a ton you're leaving out, such as them not missing for over a decade, a Stanley Cup, etc. Their owner has deeper pockets, by that team has no defense, the goalie situation is still a huge question mark despite the trade (that I think was a mistake), and they don't have the pool we have. When're they gonna figure out that they need defense? They blew up the scoreboard and they still lost.

Envy them, I don't. Nor am I afraid of them, they're a mess.
Having a pool of prospects is all well-and-good until it's time for them to start producing at the NHL level. How many times have we seen guys come up and do absolutely nothing? So many people were high on guys like Garrett Wilson, not to mention the countless others. Their defense is as bad as ours, but I have more confidence in Hedman becoming a legit #1 than Gudbranson or Kulikov ever becoming that. They'll be able to move guys like Purcell for defensemen if needed, just as they moved Conacher for Bishop. There's plenty of strength in their offensive pool, with guys like Killorn, Palat, Panik, Johnson, Connolly, etc. that made Conacher expendable in the first place.

You don't need to be afraid of them, but I can tell you with certainty that it's easier to pick up depth type of guys than it is to gather elite talent. Having St. Louis, Stamkos, Vinny, and Hedman, not to mention several of the young guys and Drouin coming in puts them in a decent spot. Vinny and Marty may not be around much longer, but they're still going strong. Until we have a Stamkos-type of guy on offense, I envy any team with a talent like that. Huberdeau is the one piece on offense that I'd say is more likely than not to become a star in the league. Bjugstad....perhaps, who knows. Howden? If he becomes more than a 2nd/3rd line guy aka the next Nieds or Dvorak, I'll be suprised and happy. MacKinnon, indeed, gives us a 2nd future-1st line forward, but it's going to be a bit of time before either of those guys are mature enough to go out and win divisions and playoff series for us.

If I had to bet right now on which team is more likely to make the playoffs, between us and Tampa next year, I'd have to say Tampa right now. Anyone here could argue against that, but I'm saying that based on the premise that good offense is more important in this league, and defense is easier to shore up than a lack of scoring. One of their goalies is bound to work out (Bishop, Lindback, Vasilevski, etc.), whereas we're riding all-in on Marky (he's a superior prospect, granted). They already have 3 legit first line forwards, depth to boot on offense, and decent enough dmen in Carle, Hedman, and Aulie. Salo and Brewer are good as 5s or 6s at this point, nothing more. Picking up 2 solid dmen would be a big plus for them. Even a guy like Wade Redden would help in that situation, and he'd come cheap as any.

Not arguing who has the brighter future, because our prospects are better than theirs, but all this writing off Tampa is foolish. A rebuild can happen over the course of 1-2 seasons (as opposed to 5-15 lol) when a player like Stamkos is at the center of it.

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05-10-2013, 01:28 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by PanthersRule96 View Post
Having a pool of prospects is all well-and-good until it's time for them to start producing at the NHL level. How many times have we seen guys come up and do absolutely nothing? So many people were high on guys like Garrett Wilson, not to mention the countless others. Their defense is as bad as ours, but I have more confidence in Hedman becoming a legit #1 than Gudbranson or Kulikov ever becoming that. They'll be able to move guys like Purcell for defensemen if needed, just as they moved Conacher for Bishop. There's plenty of strength in their offensive pool, with guys like Killorn, Palat, Panik, Johnson, Connolly, etc. that made Conacher expendable in the first place.

You don't need to be afraid of them, but I can tell you with certainty that it's easier to pick up depth type of guys than it is to gather elite talent. Having St. Louis, Stamkos, Vinny, and Hedman, not to mention several of the young guys and Drouin coming in puts them in a decent spot. Vinny and Marty may not be around much longer, but they're still going strong. Until we have a Stamkos-type of guy on offense, I envy any team with a talent like that. Huberdeau is the one piece on offense that I'd say is more likely than not to become a star in the league. Bjugstad....perhaps, who knows. Howden? If he becomes more than a 2nd/3rd line guy aka the next Nieds or Dvorak, I'll be suprised and happy. MacKinnon, indeed, gives us a 2nd future-1st line forward, but it's going to be a bit of time before either of those guys are mature enough to go out and win divisions and playoff series for us.

If I had to bet right now on which team is more likely to make the playoffs, between us and Tampa next year, I'd have to say Tampa right now. Anyone here could argue against that, but I'm saying that based on the premise that good offense is more important in this league, and defense is easier to shore up than a lack of scoring. One of their goalies is bound to work out (Bishop, Lindback, Vasilevski, etc.), whereas we're riding all-in on Marky (he's a superior prospect, granted). They already have 3 legit first line forwards, depth to boot on offense, and decent enough dmen in Carle, Hedman, and Aulie. Salo and Brewer are good as 5s or 6s at this point, nothing more. Picking up 2 solid dmen would be a big plus for them. Even a guy like Wade Redden would help in that situation, and he'd come cheap as any.

Not arguing who has the brighter future, because our prospects are better than theirs, but all this writing off Tampa is foolish. A rebuild can happen over the course of 1-2 seasons (as opposed to 5-15 lol) when a player like Stamkos is at the center of it.
sorry i respectfully 100% disagree.. they have had defensive probelms for a while its been no secret... if it is so much easier to fix it why havent they? they have tried with minor mpves and drafted hedman and still nthing... countless goalies have come in and nothing... u r severely underestimating the fact that having good 2 way forwards is just as important in defensive play as having good d men... and the lightnings forwards r not, for the most part, good defensively,... at least not the top 6 that play most of their minutes...stamkos is a great scorer but i dont think players like him win anymore in todays nhl... look at the cup contenders top 6 forwards.., sedins outm all oilers talent out tampa out, while teams like chicago st louis boston always win... cause there top 6 have great two way forwards... but i am drunk right now and could be wrong maybe im just picking teams to help my argument lol im sure there are things u could throw at me to argue my points

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05-10-2013, 04:54 AM
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sorry i respectfully 100% disagree.. they have had defensive probelms for a while its been no secret... if it is so much easier to fix it why havent they? they have tried with minor mpves and drafted hedman and still nthing... countless goalies have come in and nothing... u r severely underestimating the fact that having good 2 way forwards is just as important in defensive play as having good d men... and the lightnings forwards r not, for the most part, good defensively,... at least not the top 6 that play most of their minutes...stamkos is a great scorer but i dont think players like him win anymore in todays nhl... look at the cup contenders top 6 forwards.., sedins outm all oilers talent out tampa out, while teams like chicago st louis boston always win... cause there top 6 have great two way forwards... but i am drunk right now and could be wrong maybe im just picking teams to help my argument lol im sure there are things u could throw at me to argue my points
wow that hurt to read

i think you can get along with "bad" D from your forwards if you play in a system that's 100% set. look at their run a few years back into the ECF. idk though, their situation is weird, similiar to philly one, except philly would still be contenders if pronger wouldn't be out

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05-10-2013, 06:38 AM
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Yeah, of its easier to fix the D, why haven they? Goalies?

Don't envy anything about em, and I don't think they're in a better position at all.

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05-10-2013, 10:20 AM
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Yeah, of its easier to fix the D, why haven they? Goalies?

Don't envy anything about em, and I don't think they're in a better position at all.
It's not easy to fix anything at the NHL level, but it's easier IMO compared to fixing the forwards. How many years have we gone without any offense to speak of, excluding last year when our first line got hot for a few weeks?

Going into the season, if you told me our defense consisted of Brewer, Salo, Matt Carle, Hedman, Ohlund, and a couple of scrubs, I'd tell you it looks like a decent defensive core. Given that there was a lockout shortened season, several of those "veteran guys" who had been sitting on their couches looked awful (Brewer and others, similar to what Weiss and Steeg looked like (injuries aside, not debating that here). I love Petrovic's potential, and I like Kulikov. I hope that Gudbranson can continue to improve and become a good top 2 guy, but outside of that, Jovo, Weaver, and Kuba are mediocre. Weaver doesn't belong in that category with those two slugs, but he's nothing fantastic either.

I really want us to be able to contend for a playoff spot next year, and with a healthy team, I think we can. It's really important that we get a guy like MacKinnon and use this draft as a way to fill in the organizational holes. Hopefully we pick up a goaltender in one of the first 4 rounds or so. Our future defense looks great. I'm not totally convinced about our future offense, as I said above. I remember when we had drafted Weiss, and then added Horton to our core of Bouw and Luongo almost 10 years ago. You can find some posts where I didn't just blindly believe in our prospects, yet questioned whether they'd be a sufficient core to the supposed "cup contending teams" we were said to be building. Times are way different now, and there's reason for optimism, but despite our trainwreck of a season due to injuries, it's no guarantee that we're going to be ready to make any noise in the next year or two. Lots of question marks, but at least we appear to be on the right track, with MacKinnon being as central to that as anyone on the roster, Huberdeau included.

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05-10-2013, 10:23 AM
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Sorry, can't agree. How long have they had top forwards and have been up and down? We can o round and round, ain't changing my mind.

And, had we been healthy, we'd be in the playoffs. Hell, healthier, you're blinded looking at the Lightning.

Further, look at Atlanta teams and their strong scoring. Missed. Made it once. Well rounded teams make it and compete, we're closer than they are.

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05-10-2013, 10:29 AM
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Sorry, can't agree. How long have they had top forwards and have been up and down? We can o round and round, ain't changing my mind.

And, had we been healthy, we'd be in the playoffs. Hell, healthier, you're blinded looking at the Lightning.

Further, look at Atlanta teams and their strong scoring. Missed. Made it once. Well rounded teams make it and compete, we're closer than they are.
I agree. All we need is patience. A strong draft, headlined by MacKinnon, should complete our prospect pool, and give Tallon the pieces to make moves later on, when this team is on the verge of being a Cup contender. Tampa has Stamkos, and most likely Drouin, but they will be losing Lecavalier and MSL eventually, and there defense and goaltending is questionable. As long as our prospects develop, we should be the more well rounded team in the future.

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05-10-2013, 12:11 PM
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Sorry, can't agree. How long have they had top forwards and have been up and down? We can o round and round, ain't changing my mind.

And, had we been healthy, we'd be in the playoffs. Hell, healthier, you're blinded looking at the Lightning.

Further, look at Atlanta teams and their strong scoring. Missed. Made it once. Well rounded teams make it and compete, we're closer than they are.
How can you say that we'd be in the playoffs had we been healthier?
That's no guarantee. Plenty of bad teams improved (Ottawa, Toronto), and prior good teams missed (Philly, Sabres). We barely made it in last year. Versteeg, Weiss, and Bergy would help, but not sure they'd absolutely have guaranteed anything. Huberdeau is certainly an improvement, but we finished last in the league. We were terrible. Even though we mainly had rookies, guys like Samuelsson and Garrison were important on our playoff run. And our goaltending was terrible. Look at Tampa. Rolison was great until he finally broke down, and they went from a contender in the east finals vs. Boston to a bottom dweller. Theodore was bound to fall off, and unfortunately it happened this year before his injury. Maybe he rebounds or Markie becomes the answer, but all these assumptions about the playoffs are silly. Who's to say a healthy Steeg would have been as motivated this year compared to last year when he had a huge chip on his shoulder and started so hot, as a top scorer in the league. I doubt he's more than a 50 point player when healthy, to be honest. Weiss? Who knows where he goes from here with the injury.

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05-10-2013, 12:42 PM
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i don't get knocking tampa. teams fluctuate year to year based on health, performance, etc. but every year, they are a potential challenger with that talent. every year. we aren't closer to anything than they. if they were to get luongo this summer, fuhgeddaboudit. sure, we've got a deeper and stronger prospect pool but there's no guarantee we'll be lucky enough to be in their situation in a few years where one or two guys make you a favorite, let alone be a complete team with scoring depth, great defense and goaltending. i don't like tampa but let's be realistic here; while things are looking pretty good, as PR points out, there are a lot of assumptions built into these rosy outlooks.

and i agree - playoffs were in no way guaranteed even if healthy. we really only squeezed in last year because we had one unstoppable line for a stretch and got great goaltending. the likelihood of both of those things happening again was low.

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05-19-2013, 01:36 PM
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Nothing I a guarantee, but look at who was injured. Who was our top line center? How many kids in the lineup? How many teams would we have beaten? Where would Washingyonbe ha we been healthy? How can you two trump Tampa? Holy cow. I'm never afraid of them, though, they can surprise. Defense is always bad. So is the goal.

Zero, you don't watch games, can't take your commentary all that serious. Sorry. PR96, watch the Lightning. I lived there for 11 years, cheered in 04, that's it. I'm a Panther fan, don't understand someone envying the Lightning.

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05-19-2013, 02:42 PM
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Nothing I a guarantee, but look at who was injured. Who was our top line center? How many kids in the lineup? How many teams would we have beaten? Where would Washingyonbe ha we been healthy? How can you two trump Tampa? Holy cow. I'm never afraid of them, though, they can surprise. Defense is always bad. So is the goal.

Zero, you don't watch games, can't take your commentary all that serious. Sorry. PR96, watch the Lightning. I lived there for 11 years, cheered in 04, that's it. I'm a Panther fan, don't understand someone envying the Lightning.
nobody here is an expert on this stuff so ... taking anybody all that seriously is a mistake. having said that, i watch plenty of hockey and i watch panthers games, just not all of them. i think it reflects poorly on a poster when he/she consistently tries to undermine an opinion rather than debating it on its own merits. i'll leave it at that.

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05-19-2013, 02:46 PM
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nobody here is an expert on this stuff so ... taking anybody all that seriously is a mistake. having said that, i watch plenty of hockey and i watch panthers games, just not all of them. i think it reflects poorly on a poster when he/she consistently tries to undermine an opinion rather than debating it on its own merits. i'll leave it at that.
An I think it reflects horribly to basically try to come off as an expert when you don't watch many games. I'll leave it at that!

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05-19-2013, 07:02 PM
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THW speculation on the Florida top pick

I wrote a column about this very topic for TheHockeyWriters, would love to hear what you all think: http://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-draf...econd-overall/

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05-19-2013, 07:16 PM
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I wrote a column about this very topic for TheHockeyWriters, would love to hear what you all think: http://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-draf...econd-overall/
Lost me at not mentioning the plethora of injuries an then rambling about moving Steeg, wasn't any serious talk about that. Kinda hard to proceed when youre off right away.

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05-19-2013, 07:22 PM
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I wrote a column about this very topic for TheHockeyWriters, would love to hear what you all think: http://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-draf...econd-overall/
Well written article.

Can't find any fault with it.

Thanks for sharing.

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05-19-2013, 10:37 PM
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It's sad when I envy a team I grew up hating, with regards to the health of their organization and the value of fun in the rink. Granted Tampa's location of the forum is phenomenal, compared to a different population and set-up in Sunrise, but it's a very big step down between the two teams, despite similar records.
I feel the same way, and having been to both arenas I really do think the location has a lot to do with people caring about it.. if it was downtown there would be more of a buzz..

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05-20-2013, 12:04 AM
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I feel the same way, and having been to both arenas I really do think the location has a lot to do with people caring about it.. if it was downtown there would be more of a buzz..
I agree. And to the above, I do watch the lightning and the panthers. I've seen us struggling long enough that my blind optimism has faded (from the days where I thought Shvidki was going to be a perennial all-star, Novoseltsev the next Bure, Frolik a surefire 40 goal scorer/superstar etc..) and I can look at this team for what it is. Criticizing this team does not mean I'm any less of a panthers fan than anyone on this board. To throw out the trite "watch said team" remark as if that grants instant credibility is laughable. I don't need to defend my opinions or my hockey knowledge. There are plenty others on here who find some validity in my opinions, and I'm tired of drinking the kool-aid that this team has spewed for years. Last year was great with the playoffs and all, but I'm not sold yet.

Don't envy the lightning. That's fine by me, but if Huberdeau becomes a player close to the Stamkos stratosphere, I'll be ecstatic. They have some unbelievably exciting talent and more coming through the pipeline. I have paid for tickets simply to see St. Louis and Stamkos together out there. Similar to when Bure was with us in FLA, it's worth the price of admission for exciting talent like that. Huberdeau and MacKinnon are the two hopes I have at present, but I don't think anyone else in the organization has a chance to be more than a complimentary guy on offense unless the stars align.

We can play the injury card all day, but maybe we just have soft guys or guys who aren't completely dedicated to winning. Look at Boston and teams like that, with rugged, strong players who don't break down all the time. Steeg and Weiss are soft, no one can argue. Weiss is undersized and has played with injuries. He's done his best, but he's no Callahan. Steeg was so out of shape when he started back up, and sure, his knee injury may have been bad luck, but his style of play opens him up to being lit up or putting himself into vulnerable positions when he tries to dangle the entire team going east-to-west. I would highly doubt either of those guys are on the team the next time we win a playoff series. Other injuries may have been bad luck, like Bergenheim, and they certainly played a role with our AHL roster filling in 3/4ths of the team, but it happens every year. We're always right up there in man-games lost to injury, so we'd better prepare however possible to deal with that. A summer for guys to train will help versus the abbreviated camps, undoubtedly.

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05-20-2013, 12:09 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
Well written article.

Can't find any fault with it.

Thanks for sharing.
I agree, thank you. And Steeg certainly would have been a name on the trading block had he not been hurt. If we can get any value for him, it'd be a plus. Hopefully he comes back with a chip on his shoulder and establishes himself as a definite top 6 guy capable of putting up 60 points consistently. But you need to realize that it's a red flag when a young, talented guy has been shipped from team-to-team in his young career. People know he floats and may not have what it takes to be a legit top 6 forward on a winning team.

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05-20-2013, 06:50 AM
  #50
Laus723
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Where was Steeg truly a name on the block??

PR96, blind optimism? Really?? That's just frustration talking. Who can have 'blind optimism' after a decade of failure? You're basically letting everyone know why youre a Lightning fan now and the Panthers no longer rule. K, fine. Seeya. I watched every game for both teams. Don't hate them like I do Carolina, TO, Montreal, etc, but I don't envy them and I'm not worried about them. No point you attempt will change that.

Steeg had surgery, kinda hard to stay in shape. Weiss isn't any smaller than a number of players. Soft and aren't dedicated? Lmao...gotcha.

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