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#3 Overall Pick + for a #1 Defenseman

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Old
05-08-2013, 01:51 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by AdmiralsFan24 View Post
What about all the players taken after the 3rd pick that are better than Edler?
He also left out 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 for some odd reason (Duchene, Gudbranson, Huberdeau and Galchenyuk). I'd take all of them over Edler, with the exception of Gudbranson.

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05-08-2013, 01:53 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post
Clearly a misguided fan then. In no way is Edler worth the 3rd pick. I already listed a handful of dmen better than him. If we aren't getting an elite player in return, we'll gladly keep the pick.
Those defensemen you listed are simply your opinion. HF has Edler as the 13th best defenseman in the league.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1424001

Not that that's by any means the final word, but it just shows how "#1" is subjective.

No team is going to trade a bona fide elite player for the 3rd overall, as that pick is far from a lock to come close to being an elite player themselves.

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05-08-2013, 01:54 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post
He also left out 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 for some odd reason (Duchene, Gudbranson, Huberdeau and Galchenyuk). I'd take all of them over Edler, with the exception of Gudbranson.
Because those drafts are too early to accurately judge any of those players?

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05-08-2013, 01:56 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Those defensemen you listed are simply your opinion. HF has Edler as the 13th best defenseman in the league.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1424001

Not that that's by any means the final word, but it just shows how "#1" is subjective.

No team is going to trade a bona fide elite player for the 3rd overall, as that pick is far from a lock to come close to being an elite player themselves.
I could really care less what a HF poll thinks . Just look at the trade proposals that go up on this site everyday. Edler is wildly inconsistent who seems to perform every other year and suffers from too many mental mistakes in his own end as a supposed #1.

Your last paragraph is something we can both agree on. We aren't moving the pick.

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05-08-2013, 01:59 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Because those drafts are too early to accurately judge any of those players?
The same could be said about 2008 with Bogosian if one believes that dmen take longer to develop and hit their peak. Also, Duchene is already better than Edler, I'd rather have him or Huberdeau on my team any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

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05-08-2013, 03:07 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post
He also left out 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 for some odd reason (Duchene, Gudbranson, Huberdeau and Galchenyuk). I'd take all of them over Edler, with the exception of Gudbranson.
I think it's pretty reasonable to leave out the five most recent drafts...it's silly to consider them since you don't know where they end up.

Edler has certainly done better than Gudbranson, Huberdeau, and Galchenyk to this point in their respective careers because their NHL careers are just starting and they haven't put up 70 points as a forward.

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05-08-2013, 06:43 AM
  #182
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Edler is just not the right guy, he is very vrey good in his role, but after all, he is a lefty and Tampa would be better off taking a righty and he is offensive minded, while Tampa needs a defensive first defender, which would allow Hedman to be the two way defender, he could be, if he would have a true top pairing partner.

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05-08-2013, 06:44 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
ROTFL @ This

So a team that is stacked at center and weak at defense is going to trade you Seth Jones and Duncan Diemens for Stepan + a prospect?

Nope
I will restructure so you get D directly.
fyi the idea is w/Stepan you could either keep or trade either him or one of your surplus C and get D in return

I'll upgrade the offer:
Staal, Girardi + first rounder Skjei for the pick, which NY uses for Jones
you keep Siemens

Rangers keep Stepan
may attempt alternate scenarios for MacKinnon thereafter

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05-08-2013, 08:19 AM
  #184
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Mike Green

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05-08-2013, 09:32 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
I think it's pretty reasonable to leave out the five most recent drafts...it's silly to consider them since you don't know where they end up.

Edler has certainly done better than Gudbranson, Huberdeau, and Galchenyk to this point in their respective careers because their NHL careers are just starting and they haven't put up 70 points as a forward.
Who cares? Is this a thread about Edler? What don't you get? We don't want him, move on:

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05-08-2013, 09:39 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by QuadrupleDeke View Post
Mike Green
injury prone, offensive minded.
TWO NOs

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05-08-2013, 10:44 AM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
I will restructure so you get D directly.
fyi the idea is w/Stepan you could either keep or trade either him or one of your surplus C and get D in return

I'll upgrade the offer:
Staal, Girardi + first rounder Skjei for the pick, which NY uses for Jones
you keep Siemens

Rangers keep Stepan
may attempt alternate scenarios for MacKinnon thereafter

Wow you are even worse at proposing trades than the generic Leafs fan. Wow.
This one is not as atrocious as the one before. (honestly may be the worst I've read in a long time. It would not make sense for the Avs to trade Siemens for Stepan (apart from him having more value but well unless you flip him immediately and cash in on his higher trade value right now , what would be the point?..)

It still is bad for the Avs. Staal is probably CAR bound soon if he gets traded and with EJ we really don't need Girardi. Skjei is of no interest to us with Barrie/Elliott/Siemens waiting in the wings.

You are not getting Seth Jones (or whoever we pick #1) unless you want to offer up McDonagh and keep adding pieces like Stepan and than continue adding.
Overpayment? Hell yes but you are not getting Seth Jones for fair value.
You are clearly spoiled by Sather.

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05-08-2013, 05:06 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by JoemAvs View Post
...
Quote:
Wow you are even worse at proposing trades than the generic Leafs fan. Wow.
Stop, you're too kind

Quote:
This one is not as atrocious as the one before. (honestly may be the worst I've read in a long time.
I'm tempted to say, tell us how you really feel, but I'd rather say STOP your madness!

[QUOTE]It would not make sense for the Avs to trade Siemens for Stepan[QUOTE]
Your words not mine.
I was going for package deal, Stepan for the pick = Jones.
That is basically fair value, taking into account Stepan is now established and a known commodity, and is a solid 1c for all except where an elite C is. Plus he's very young and while a new contract is in order soon, you enough time to work that out on your own terms.

The idea of Siemens for Skjei was based on scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. If Staal is moved, it would be desirable to have the sooner available Siemens. And I think they will both be very solid. But Siemens will likely be, not one dimensional, but a solid stay at home type. Skjei is lanky and tall, we THINK he is going to be reasonably strong, and he is a fabulous skater. So no guarantee Skjei is gonna morph into Hedman or Letang, but he has a wider variety of potential (than Siemens).

This second component is only of benefit to Rangers to extent that Siemens is available sooner, possibly this year, and Skjei is a year + more away from that. It is only of benefit to Avs to extent that a generic stay at home D is easier, IMO, to find than someone who can also move the puck, etc.


Quote:
(apart from him having more value but well unless you flip him immediately and cash in on his higher trade value right now , what would be the point?..)
THAT would be the point.
You're call. You either keep Stepan as a serious core piece and move surplus Fs to upgrade D, or you move Stepan for that purpose. We can be honest and admit Stepan will fetch some top backliner from somewhere. Sure, he's not going to get an elite (Doherty, Weber) but he will fetch top dollar return.

Quote:
It still is bad for the Avs. Staal is probably CAR bound soon if he gets traded
Going back to the other deal.

Staal is a good guy, he's contractually bound for 2 years, and he's going nowhere unless NY trades him. And there are a lot of things that can happen in 2 years; what if, God forbid, Eric gets injured? Then all of this is just that much more the novelty. If Carolina wants to pay you top dollar for the best overall shut down D in the league, and that is what Staal is, (others are stronger [Chiara], skate faster [Letang] have offensive skills [Weber] but none are, exclusively as to D, the best overall combo that Staal is), then that would be up to Carolina to make it worth your while, and for you to figure out what point is taking advantage of an opportunity and what point is being greedy and stupid.

Quote:
and with EJ we really don't need Girardi.
Fine, though whether kept or dealt, as a balanced L-R top pair, I see teams interested in one or both.

Quote:
Skjei is of no interest to us with Barrie/Elliott/Siemens waiting in the wings.
Each one is fine. The Skjei for Siemens rationale was explained above.

Quote:
You are not getting Seth Jones (or whoever we pick #1) unless you want to offer up McDonagh and keep adding pieces like Stepan and than continue adding.
:biglaug h:

Quote:
Overpayment? Hell yes but you are not getting Seth Jones for fair value.
I don't expect fair value in any trade. Why trade coke for pepsi, unless you happen to have, for example, a surplus RW for a complementary LW of even worth, and both sides get balance. Which is the exception to the rule.

You will either keep Jones or trade him. If traded, logic says it is for the highest offer. You either get better offer than Stepan, or not. And maybe I would consider a further add. But not for anything crazy like you have above.

I'm planning to rework these moves over the next week and I expect to make new thread then.

Quote:
You are clearly spoiled by Sather.
You have me confused with a GM who would gut his team AND get no worthwhile return for the hit.
Good luck with that!

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05-08-2013, 08:06 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
blah blah blah

Holy off topic.. Mod can you please clean this up? Back to talking about the 3rd overall pick and the Tampa Bay Lightning.

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05-08-2013, 10:03 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by hfgreg View Post
Holy off topic.. Mod can you please clean this up? Back to talking about the 3rd overall pick and the Tampa Bay Lightning.
I owe you an apology
I had this as 2 related deals, w/one sending Girardi ++ for the third.
Unintentionally got side tracked.

I'll get it back on track

You specified priority is righty D to pair w Hedman
Only RD that fits is Girardi for now + Andersson for the future

What else do you want for the third overall?

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05-08-2013, 10:12 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
I owe you an apology
I had this as 2 related deals, w/one sending Girardi ++ for the third.
Unintentionally got side tracked.

I'll get it back on track

You specified priority is righty D to pair w Hedman
Only RD that fits is Girardi for now + Andersson for the future

What else do you want for the third overall?
The world.

A package cannot be centered around Girardi just because we'd like a RD. We'd take McDonagh as a centerpiece but even then you'd need to add quite a bit more.

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05-09-2013, 07:53 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post
The world.

A package cannot be centered around Girardi just because we'd like a RD. We'd take McDonagh as a centerpiece but even then you'd need to add quite a bit more.
Really?

I expect a substantial add where its Girardi + Andersson +.
But McD makes no sense for NYR.

Is Drouin, or whoever else gets picked third, another Stamkos etc 100% can't miss elite?

That's what it would take to pry McDonagh

I realize a top 3 pick for a premium talent commands a premium.
But there is a difference between a premium and looking for a swindle.

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05-09-2013, 10:15 AM
  #193
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Really?

I expect a substantial add where its Girardi + Andersson +.
But McD makes no sense for NYR.

Is Drouin, or whoever else gets picked third, another Stamkos etc 100% can't miss elite?

That's what it would take to pry McDonagh

I realize a top 3 pick for a premium talent commands a premium.
But there is a difference between a premium and looking for a swindle.
In the eyes of the scouts, the top 3 are elite. Why is Stamkos suddenly the measuring stick for who's elite or not? Patty Kane is elite and Drouin favourably compares to him.

If McD is not even in the discussion, we'll gladly pass on your deal mainly because you also do not have a 1st to offer. The quality of the prospect we'll get at #3 is better than the quantity we'd get in a trade, unless an elite player is coming our way. We could package other prospects and/or picks in order to receive a top 4 dman.

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05-09-2013, 11:54 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post
In the eyes of the scouts, the top 3 are elite. Why is Stamkos suddenly the measuring stick for who's elite or not? Patty Kane is elite and Drouin favourably compares to him.

If McD is not even in the discussion, we'll gladly pass on your deal mainly because you also do not have a 1st to offer. The quality of the prospect we'll get at #3 is better than the quantity we'd get in a trade, unless an elite player is coming our way. We could package other prospects and/or picks in order to receive a top 4 dman.
Fair enough, and I appreciate the courteous response.
I guess we could split hairs and be more accurate and say Malkin, Stamkos and few others are uber-elite, followed by elites, followed by premium valued actual or potential stars.

I view Drouin as comparable to Yakupov, who I see as a another Parise in the making, a premium sniper, highly valued. Not elite. But it is open to perspective and opinion, especially since all of this is a projection of future success in NHL.

I didn't realize that you felt you had such an abundance of pieces either in hand or developing and around the corner that you could now focus on consolidating some of that talent.

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05-09-2013, 12:13 PM
  #195
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Fair enough, and I appreciate the courteous response.
I guess we could split hairs and be more accurate and say Malkin, Stamkos and few others are uber-elite, followed by elites, followed by premium valued actual or potential stars.

I view Drouin as comparable to Yakupov, who I see as a another Parise in the making, a premium sniper, highly valued. Not elite. But it is open to perspective and opinion, especially since all of this is a projection of future success in NHL.

I didn't realize that you felt you had such an abundance of pieces either in hand or developing and around the corner that you could now focus on consolidating some of that talent.
Your trade proposal was a serious one and you gave it thought, so it deserved a courteous response.

In regards to the categorizations of elite and uber-elite, it doesn't matter to me. An elite player is an elite player and unfortunately I do not see Girardi, Andersson or anything else NYR would be willing to part with as "elite" or the potential to be elite. If the top 3 were "uber-elite" there'd be no consideration of even trading out of our position.

The top 3 in this year's draft are better than the 1st overalls that went in 2011 and 2012 imho. They're on par with the top 2 in 2010, with Jones possibly even being better than both. This draft is incredibly strong at the top, with even Nichushkin drawing some comparisons to Malkin/Nash.

If you look at our prospect pool, both Connolly and Kucherov are very, very good talents with Kucherov potentially becoming elite if his game translates to the next level (no guarantee). Vasilevskiy is one of the top rated goaltending prospect (could be #1 now with Markstrom promoted) and is rated as a potential elite goalie. Then, we have a host of other good prospects that cracked the team this year in Panik, Killorn, T.Johnson, Gudas, Barberio, Palat etc. There's also JT Brown, Namestnikov, Koekkoek, Blujus, Gusev and Richard all in the system.

Surely, there are some pieces in there and/or draft picks that could be packaged together for a top 4 dman.

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05-09-2013, 02:39 PM
  #196
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Pavelski + Braun + 1st + conditional 2nd (fail to extend Pavs) for Purcell + 3rd overall

Braun is a young PMD, RH shot on a great 1.25M contract and is already a solid #4.
Pavelski is a Selke-level (regardless of actual voters) two way 60 pt center who can play any position except goalie. He has 1 more year at 4M before hitting UFA. Re-signing him should be easy, if you budget 6M.

The above make you a better team for next year, and for several more assuming you extend Pavelski. Believe it could make you contenders with your current core. It does rob you of a future star, but by the time the 3rd overall is coming into his own, your older players would be fading. Start your rebuild later, contend tomorrow!

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05-09-2013, 02:52 PM
  #197
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We don't really have a number 1 defenseman. We have a solid #2 in Giordano and a young #3 with a pretty high ceiling in Brodie (looks to be a #2, but you never know). Would either of those and the 6th overall and a 4th be of interest for the #3 and #33 picks?

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05-09-2013, 03:10 PM
  #198
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We don't really have a number 1 defenseman. We have a solid #2 in Giordano and a young #3 with a pretty high ceiling in Brodie (looks to be a #2, but you never know). Would either of those and the 6th overall and a 4th be of interest for the #3 and #33 picks?
This is a trade we'd definitely be interested in. On our board, we all believe Calgary is our ideal trading partners since Murray (our head scout) is apparently very high on Nichushkin. Nichushkin at 6 makes sense, but we only want Drouin if we stand pat at 3rd overall. Our only concern is whether or not Nichushkin makes it to #6.

That said, we could also work out a draft and trade where we draft Drouin and if Nichushkin is still available at 6, we swap Drouin and the 33rd for the 6th overall pick, Giordano and your 4th. I like that deal, great offer!


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05-09-2013, 03:16 PM
  #199
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Pavelski + Braun + 1st + conditional 2nd (fail to extend Pavs) for Purcell + 3rd overall

Braun is a young PMD, RH shot on a great 1.25M contract and is already a solid #4.
Pavelski is a Selke-level (regardless of actual voters) two way 60 pt center who can play any position except goalie. He has 1 more year at 4M before hitting UFA. Re-signing him should be easy, if you budget 6M.

The above make you a better team for next year, and for several more assuming you extend Pavelski. Believe it could make you contenders with your current core. It does rob you of a future star, but by the time the 3rd overall is coming into his own, your older players would be fading. Start your rebuild later, contend tomorrow!
This deal would look very bad for us if we could not extend Pavelski. I love Pavelski as a player as he raises the bar in high pressure situations, is excellent on face-offs, has some physicality/toughness and is a great two-way player.

However, with Vinny under contract until the end of time basically, there's no way we could also fit Pavs into our pay structure (we have a lot of kids that need to be re-signed in the coming years). Braun, SJ's 1st and 2nd would not be enough for the 3rd overall (if Pavs was not re-signed). We'd rather keep the pick and have a potentially elite player at a 3 year entry level contract that would allow us to stay under the salary cap.

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05-09-2013, 03:26 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post
This is a trade we'd definitely be interested in. On our board, we all believe Calgary is our ideal trading partners since Murray (our head scout) is apparently very high on Nichushkin. Nichushkin at 6 makes sense, but we only want Drouin if we stand pat at 3rd overall. Our only concern is whether or not Nichushkin makes it to #6.

That said, we could also work out a draft and trade where we draft Drouin and if Nichushkin is still available at 6, we swap Drouin and the 33rd for the 6th overall pick, Giordano and your 4th. I like that deal, great offer!
Cool, we need Barkov at that spot. He's my favorite forward in this draft. I think we'd pass on Drouin even though he's likely the most talented forward available. Nicushkin could be available at 6 if Nashville passes on him. Obviously we'd need to wait to see how it played out because if by some miracle Barkov was available at 6 I wouldn't do it.

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