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What Bobrovsky Winning the Vezina Would Mean For The Flyers

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05-09-2013, 01:42 PM
  #51
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Obviously. I still think the Flyers gave up on him to soon. Its just more proof why I dont trust the Flyers when it comes to how they handle young goaltenders and defenseman.
And you can add young forwards to that list, 3 recent of which shall remain nameless but are doing quite well, thank you, in other locales.

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05-09-2013, 01:55 PM
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Obviously. I still think the Flyers gave up on him to soon. Its just more proof why I dont trust the Flyers when it comes to how they handle young goaltenders and defenseman.
I don't know. I didn't really see it as giving up on him too soon. I saw it as what seemed like a sure-fire way to immediately improve the long-term goalie situation, as opposed to having a potential long-term goalie situation.

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05-09-2013, 01:56 PM
  #53
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If Bob lets say had three years similar to his rookie year, and the Flyers went after Bryz, then I would agree. But he had one good year. Not a great year. Not a Calder trophy year. Not a Vezina year. One good year.

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05-09-2013, 02:03 PM
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Bob was the best goalie I've seen last season. I think he deserves the Vezina...

As far as what it means, I think flyers management seriously needs to keep players with heart..

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05-09-2013, 02:03 PM
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And you can add young forwards to that list, 3 recent of which shall remain nameless but are doing quite well, thank you, in other locales.
All of which the Flyers for returns for that either arguably or obviously exceed the value of the forward being moved.

Would you trade Voracek, Couturier, and Cousins for Carter? I wouldn't.

What about Simmonds, Schenn, and (Grossmann) for Richards? Nope.

Schenn for JVR? Maybe. I believe Toronto got the best player in this deal, but Schenn has been better than I hoped.

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05-09-2013, 02:15 PM
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It's really simple. Philly saw a 2 year window to try and win it before Pronger and Kimmo broke down. They signed Bryz. Having Pronger go down, a few months later drastically changed how it could have played out for the Flyers side of the deal.

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05-09-2013, 02:27 PM
  #57
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As far as what it means, I think flyers management seriously needs to keep players with heart..
If that were the case, the Kings may not be defending champs today.

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05-09-2013, 02:40 PM
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If that were the case, the Kings may not be defending champs today.
Nor would the Flyers.

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05-09-2013, 02:43 PM
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Nor would the Flyers.
Get a ****ing goalie and quit trading away good players, and the Flyers may have had several in the past 20 years.

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05-09-2013, 03:15 PM
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DFF, I stopped reading your post the moment you said Bob didn't show amazing potential. You lost credibility there. Either you completely missed the train, or this is revisionist history on your part.

Bob had one good season where he had essentially no formal goaltending coaching, didn't speak the same language as his Dmen, and had never played in NA. He got by on his athleticism and work ethic alone. That's the best potential you can ask for in a goalie, to throw them into the NHL and have them do well simply on raw talent and a willingness to work at it. It was amazingly obvious at the time. Lots of people saw it. Lots of people were excited about it. That's why people wanted to go the Vokoun/Develop Bob route. Hell, even after the preseason people were coming to the conclusion that Bob could very well be a starting goaltender with more experience and polish, based on his raw athletic talent. It's not like he had one good season, and afterwards people said "Hey! Potential!" It was abundantly evident the whole time.

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05-09-2013, 03:22 PM
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Get a ****ing goalie and quit trading away good players, and the Flyers may have had several in the past 20 years.
I'm with you- chances are Flyers would get a Stanley Cup with the guys they've unloaded over the past few years (and the other stay-behinds) just as quickly, or sooner given their development, then they will with their current crop of players.

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05-09-2013, 03:41 PM
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DFF, I stopped reading your post the moment you said Bob didn't show amazing potential. You lost credibility there. Either you completely missed the train, or this is revisionist history on your part.

Bob had one good season where he had essentially no formal goaltending coaching, didn't speak the same language as his Dmen, and had never played in NA. He got by on his athleticism and work ethic alone. That's the best potential you can ask for in a goalie, to throw them into the NHL and have them do well simply on raw talent and a willingness to work at it. It was amazingly obvious at the time. Lots of people saw it. Lots of people were excited about it. That's why people wanted to go the Vokoun/Develop Bob route. Hell, even after the preseason people were coming to the conclusion that Bob could very well be a starting goaltender with more experience and polish, based on his raw athletic talent. It's not like he had one good season, and afterwards people said "Hey! Potential!" It was abundantly evident the whole time.
agreed..

it suks how much the Bryz signing has bit us in the ass, when u add up all the factors..

i really would loved to have seen what a Bob/Vokoun 2-year pact would have netted, ohwell..

/UGH

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05-09-2013, 03:57 PM
  #63
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I thought it was stupid to trade Bob then, and I don't feel any better about it now. While I will continue to be annoyed that they traded him I'll be happy for him if he wins.

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05-09-2013, 04:17 PM
  #64
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I didn't like the trade when it happened, liked it less when the amnesties became official and like it even less now. No need for hindsight with that though, I didn't like the Bryzgalov contract either.

I hope Bobrovsky wins though, IMO he deserves it.

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05-09-2013, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
DFF, I stopped reading your post the moment you said Bob didn't show amazing potential. You lost credibility there. Either you completely missed the train, or this is revisionist history on your part.

Bob had one good season where he had essentially no formal goaltending coaching, didn't speak the same language as his Dmen, and had never played in NA. He got by on his athleticism and work ethic alone. That's the best potential you can ask for in a goalie, to throw them into the NHL and have them do well simply on raw talent and a willingness to work at it. It was amazingly obvious at the time. Lots of people saw it. Lots of people were excited about it. That's why people wanted to go the Vokoun/Develop Bob route. Hell, even after the preseason people were coming to the conclusion that Bob could very well be a starting goaltender with more experience and polish, based on his raw athletic talent. It's not like he had one good season, and afterwards people said "Hey! Potential!" It was abundantly evident the whole time.
Revisionist history? Come on. Bob did not show "amazing" potential. He certainly showed potential. Certainly potential to become a starter. But you are really using that word "amazing" liberally. Amazing potential is Nate MacKinnon. The potential to be a starting goalie is not "amazing" potential.

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05-09-2013, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Revisionist history? Come on. Bob did not show "amazing" potential. He certainly showed potential. Certainly potential to become a starter. But you are really using that word "amazing" liberally. Amazing potential is Nate MacKinnon. The potential to be a starting goalie is not "amazing" potential.
You didn't think Bob showed amazing potential? The speed, lateral movement, athleticism in general? He had skills that you can't teach, yet lacked many of the skills that can be taught but he showed a very good ability to learn and respond to coaching. That's all pretty amazing. It's also pretty rare. How many Bob's have we seen in the NHL? How many undrafted guys with nor formal coaching make their way straight in the NHL and keep themselves afloat on athletic skill alone? It doesn't happen often. It's pretty amazing, actually.

Let me revise that: he had the potential to be our goaltending solution, and I was nowhere close to coming to that conclusion on my own. Lots of people saw that, lots of people said it, lots of people continued to say it for a while. For that reason alone, I don't understand how anybody can claim we're using hindsight, when so many of us have been saying these things all along. A lot of fans, both Flyers fans and non-Flyers fans, considered "starting goaltender" to be his floor, not his ceiling.

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05-09-2013, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You didn't think Bob showed amazing potential? The speed, lateral movement, athleticism in general? He had skills that you can't teach, yet lacked many of the skills that can be taught but he showed a very good ability to learn and respond to coaching. That's all pretty amazing. It's also pretty rare. How many Bob's have we seen in the NHL? How many undrafted guys with nor formal coaching make their way straight in the NHL and keep themselves afloat on athletic skill alone? It doesn't happen often. It's pretty amazing, actually.

Let me revise that: he had the potential to be our goaltending solution, and I was nowhere close to coming to that conclusion on my own. Lots of people saw that, lots of people said it, lots of people continued to say it for a while. For that reason alone, I don't understand how anybody can claim we're using hindsight, when so many of us have been saying these things all along. A lot of fans, both Flyers fans and non-Flyers fans, considered "starting goaltender" to be his floor, not his ceiling.
Ok, and that is completely fine. I agree with that 100%. Bob had the potential to be the solution and be a long-term starter. That is very different than saying he has amazing potential. I don't think I ever said Bob didn't have the potential to be the long-term starter. What I did say was that there was a risk in hoping Bob pans out. At that point in time he had 60 or so NHL games under his belt. His stats were good, not great. As I have said for the past two years, there is a risk in putting all your eggs in that basket. There was a risk in putting all your eggs in Bryz's basket as well. To me (and I would imagine many others), the risk in Bryz was less than the risk in Bob. Bryz had shown over a relatively long career that he can play at the level of a legit starting goalie. Yes, the contract was too long and a lot of those years likely would have been "decline" years. But it was a safe bet that Bryz would come in and play AT LEAST as good as Bob, if not better. That turned out to not be the case, but at the time it is hard to argue that a safer bet would have been Bob. It has hard to argue that the right move would have been hoping an guy who came out of nowhere and played well for one season would have been the better choice than a proven, former Vezina nominee.

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05-09-2013, 05:09 PM
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Ok, and that is completely fine. I agree with that 100%. Bob had the potential to be the solution and be a long-term starter. That is very different than saying he has amazing potential. I don't think I ever said Bob didn't have the potential to be the long-term starter. What I did say was that there was a risk in hoping Bob pans out. At that point in time he had 60 or so NHL games under his belt. His stats were good, not great. As I have said for the past two years, there is a risk in putting all your eggs in that basket. There was a risk in putting all your eggs in Bryz's basket as well. To me (and I would imagine many others), the risk in Bryz was less than the risk in Bob. Bryz had shown over a relatively long career that he can play at the level of a legit starting goalie. Yes, the contract was too long and a lot of those years likely would have been "decline" years. But it was a safe bet that Bryz would come in and play AT LEAST as good as Bob, if not better. That turned out to not be the case, but at the time it is hard to argue that a safer bet would have been Bob. It has hard to argue that the right move would have been hoping an guy who came out of nowhere and played well for one season would have been the better choice than a proven, former Vezina nominee.
At this point we mostly agree except on semantics. Yeah, I expected Bryz to be at least as good as Bob, at minimum. I truly expected him to be better. But, I expected him to be a less-than=long-term solution. That's why I wanted to bring in Vokoun to help Bob along and develop him. A Bob/Vokoun tandem would have been pretty solid. It would have allowed him to develop without undue pressure.

In the immediate here and now, Bob wasn't a safer bet than Bryz. But in terms of long term planning, he was; it was perfectly reasonable to assume that Bob would be as good as, or better than Bryz in 5 years. Unfortunately the Flyers don't do long term planning.

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05-09-2013, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
At this point we mostly agree except on semantics. Yeah, I expected Bryz to be at least as good as Bob, at minimum. I truly expected him to be better. But, I expected him to be a less-than=long-term solution. That's why I wanted to bring in Vokoun to help Bob along and develop him. A Bob/Vokoun tandem would have been pretty solid. It would have allowed him to develop without undue pressure.

In the immediate here and now, Bob wasn't a safer bet than Bryz. But in terms of long term planning, he was; it was perfectly reasonable to assume that Bob would be as good as, or better than Bryz in 5 years. Unfortunately the Flyers don't do long term planning.
It seems like we are disagreeing on Bob's likelihood of reaching his potential. You seem to feel that Bob was a lock to become a long-term solution. ("But in terms of long term planning, he was; it was perfectly reasonable to assume that Bob would be as good as, or better than Bryz in 5 years.") I don't think it was perfectly reasonable to assume that. It was definitely possible. But after one season coming out of nowhere, far from reasonable to assume that. Even with this shortened season under his belt, I wouldn't call it safe to assume he will even be a long-term solution in Columbus. I mean, look just at Philadelphia over recent history (not even other teams where this is also somewhat normal). Brian Boucher came in and looked to have the same type of potential that Bob had when he came here. He fizzled. Roman Chechmanek came in and took the starting job from him, getting named to the All-Star Team and nominated for the Vezina. Certainly he had the same potential as Bob, if not higher. He fizzled. Robert Esche came in, a little older and with more experience IIRC, but he played well and still young enough where he had the potential to be the long-term solution. He fizzled. Then there was a bunch of rif-raf until Bob. Obviously that doesn't mean that Bob would have (or will) fizzle, but I don't think you can tell me it was "safe to assume" anything about what would happen based on ONE season of GOOD play.

EDIT: It seems like we just have differing philosophies on this type of thing. I liken this scenario to trading draft picks. I typically don't have a problem trading draft picks for current NHL players. IIRC you are not a fan of doing this in many situations. I have always been a "bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" type of person. With Bob you have a lot of potential, but no guarantees. With Bryz you have (had) what was thought to be a guarantee. With hindsight obviously that was not the case, but in practice, I do it every time because the bird in hand (Bryz) is worth the two in the bush (Bob).


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05-09-2013, 05:45 PM
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It seems like we are disagreeing on Bob's likelihood of reaching his potential. You seem to feel that Bob was a lock to become a long-term solution. ("But in terms of long term planning, he was; it was perfectly reasonable to assume that Bob would be as good as, or better than Bryz in 5 years.") I don't think it was perfectly reasonable to assume that. It was definitely possible. But after one season coming out of nowhere, far from reasonable to assume that. Even with this shortened season under his belt, I wouldn't call it safe to assume he will even be a long-term solution in Columbus. I mean, look just at Philadelphia over recent history (not even other teams where this is also somewhat normal). Brian Boucher came in and looked to have the same type of potential that Bob had when he came here. He fizzled. Roman Chechmanek came in and took the starting job from him, getting named to the All-Star Team and nominated for the Vezina. Certainly he had the same potential as Bob, if not higher. He fizzled. Robert Esche came in, a little older and with more experience IIRC, but he played well and still young enough where he had the potential to be the long-term solution. He fizzled. Then there was a bunch of rif-raf until Bob. Obviously that doesn't mean that Bob would have (or will) fizzle, but I don't think you can tell me it was "safe to assume" anything about what would happen based on ONE season of GOOD play.

EDIT: It seems like we just have differing philosophies on this type of thing. I liken this scenario to trading draft picks. I typically don't have a problem trading draft picks for current NHL players. IIRC you are not a fan of doing this in many situations. I have always been a "bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" type of person. With Bob you have a lot of potential, but no guarantees. With Bryz you have (had) what was thought to be a guarantee. With hindsight obviously that was not the case, but in practice, I do it every time because the bird in hand (Bryz) is worth the two in the bush (Bob).
Bob's work ethic and well-adjusted attitude gave/gives every reason to believe he will reach his potential. That's what truly made him special and set him apart from the rest of the failed goaltending herd the org has been through.

I still go with Vokoun/Bob, because of that and everything else I've stated.

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05-09-2013, 06:12 PM
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Bob's work ethic and well-adjusted attitude gave/gives every reason to believe he will reach his potential. That's what truly made him special and set him apart from the rest of the failed goaltending herd the org has been through.

I still go with Vokoun/Bob, because of that and everything else I've stated.
Fair enough. Like I said, we seem to just have different philosophies in this type of thing.

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05-09-2013, 06:20 PM
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Fair enough. Like I said, we seem to just have different philosophies in this type of thing.
Well, at least it didn't take us 15 pages to get here.

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05-09-2013, 06:38 PM
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Meltzer commented on this topic in today's blog post..I'm sure some have seen it. Just wondered what people thought of it? While I agree with the overall premise that Bob was bound to be traded once Snider meddled and spurred the acquisition of Bryz and I'm glad Bill said he was overzealous with his assessment of Bob as a "fringe" starter..... it is still aggravating how badly management and even the coach botched the whole situation. Then again Bryz hasn't exactly held his end of the deal but again it seems to fall on management for not assessing whether Bryz even had the right personality or goaltending style for this team.

As far as Bill's comment and other's comments about "we will see" if Bob is the real deal when he plays a full season or is consistently a vezina candidate....well I think that is a pretty lame copout. I want to know what leads Bill and other's to doubt that he can't sustain it? We will see implies people still doubt his capabilities. I want to know why because I don't see it and didn't see it when we first got him. I saw a starting goaltender who was raw but had limitless potential and who worked his butt off and said all the right things (i.e. had motivation and resolve). I mean I heard an interview with John Davidson and although obviously he's touting his own player...he did say he never saw a goalie work as hard as Bob and he said he witnessed many great goalies like Beezer and Richter....

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Bobrovsky and the Flyers

The announcement yesterday that former Flyers goaltender Sergei Bobrovsky is one of the three top finishers in the Vezina Trophy balloting came as no surprise around the hockey world. The Columbus Blue Jackets netminder had a magnificent season, and it would be a small injustice if either reigning Vezina winner Henrik Lundqvist or San Jose's Antti Niemi were selected over him to win the award this season.

Nevertheless, Bobrovsky nomination absolutely does not mean the Flyers were mistaken to trade him last summer for draft picks. In hindsight, the Flyers' errors in judgment born of impatience actually came to roost the PREVIOUS spring and summer.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...6#.UYwzSY43YyE

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05-09-2013, 06:43 PM
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I still go with Vokoun/Bob, because of that and everything else I've stated.
You and some others were right about going the Bob and Vokoun rout......I didn't agree at the time but obviously it most likely would have worked out better for the Flyers. To me Bob's work ethic and resolve would have overcome some of the internal Flyers barriers. Bryz was obviously the biggest barrier to him still being around....

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05-09-2013, 06:55 PM
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Well, at least it didn't take us 15 pages to get here.
Yeah, we need a new topic to get that going I think. I don't think anything else could possibly be said on the topic of goalies and the Flyers between you and I. From Leighton to Bob to Bryz, we've covered it all.

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