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Old
05-09-2013, 10:10 PM
  #901
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Originally Posted by molsonmuscle360 View Post
A lot of what I was trying to point out was he was saying NHL players from all cities take their money "home" in the off-season. Well, many NHL players call Alberta home, so therefore that theory of his that all the hockey money goes off somewhere else is wrong.
I Don't buy that there are a lot of NHL players that call Edmonton home. I'm not sure how it benefits Edmonton if they call Alberta home.

Something else as well is that when a player lives in many cities the amount they have to pay for living expenses lodgings is extreme. Cost of living here is cheap.

So in NY a player pays a minimum of a couple Million for sufficient lodging in Manhattan. Luongo famously paid 4.5M for his crib in Vancouver.

A player would have to be buying Katz Wayne Manor to drop that kind of coin in this market. Thus making the trickle down here even more negligible. It simply isn't expensive in any way for a player to live here. Thus they spend significantly less in this market than most any other market.

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05-09-2013, 10:32 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I Don't buy that there are a lot of NHL players that call Edmonton home. I'm not sure how it benefits Edmonton if they call Alberta home.

Something else as well is that when a player lives in many cities the amount they have to pay for living expenses lodgings is extreme. Cost of living here is cheap.

So in NY a player pays a minimum of a couple Million for sufficient lodging in Manhattan. Luongo famously paid 4.5M for his crib in Vancouver.

A player would have to be buying Katz Wayne Manor to drop that kind of coin in this market. Thus making the trickle down here even more negligible. It simply isn't expensive in any way for a player to live here. Thus they spend significantly less in this market than most any other market.
What about the out of town fans, is our contribution negligible too? I find it pretty funny that people actually have brought this up as a subject here to begin with. You wanna talk about taxes leaving our province every single day? Look to Fort Mac. Tons of people live in camp, and as soon as their last shift is done, they are on a company paid plane, headed to Newfoundland, or Ontario, or Saskatchewan and various other places. Not to mention the property taxes Fort Mac loses to Edmonton and Calgary residents as well who do the same thing.

Hell, a friend of mine from high school (who I'm pretty sure posts here, we just have never talked about it) lived here in Fort Mac for 5 years, but realized he could make a lot more money and enjoy himself more by commuting to and from Edmonton, and with his extra money, he got himself season tickets to the Oilers.

You can pass off various people's accounts on how the Oilers help the city in various ways, but I think the main thing that they bring to the city is a sense of pride. 2006 is the best example of why we should have a new arena. When this team actually becomes what we have expected from them, I'd much rather they be playing here than in Seattle or Quebec or wherever.

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05-09-2013, 10:35 PM
  #903
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Why can't we sell the naming rights to the new arena now, and take a loan out against it to get the rest of the money needed to start building this thing?

An average deal on the naming rights would easily cover the rest of the money + interest.

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05-09-2013, 10:59 PM
  #904
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Why can't we sell the naming rights to the new arena now, and take a loan out against it to get the rest of the money needed to start building this thing?

An average deal on the naming rights would easily cover the rest of the money + interest.
Cause guess what? KATZ gets the naming rights, worth hundreds of millions , to an arena he doesnt even own & contributed to minimally.

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05-09-2013, 11:11 PM
  #905
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Why can't we sell the naming rights to the new arena now, and take a loan out against it to get the rest of the money needed to start building this thing?

An average deal on the naming rights would easily cover the rest of the money + interest.
Building naming rights are typically considered a valuable source of advertising revenue. Any suggestion of using it as collateral for the remaining 30 million would probably be as well received by Katz as the suggestions of raising the ticket tax.

Ie. cutting into the revenue streams from the building.

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05-09-2013, 11:18 PM
  #906
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Cause guess what? KATZ gets the naming rights, worth hundreds of millions , to an arena he doesnt even own & contributed to minimally.
Exactly.

How hard is it for people to actually be aware of the present agreement on the table while wading into the debate?

Its laughable That Katz has the naming rights for a building he doesn't own and a building he doesn't front one dime in.

Even worse, the amount that Katz puts in annually is barely more than what he can make on naming rights and the 2M/yr "advertising" payback the city is giving him for the first 10yrs.

Its quite conceivable that Katz will be out of pocket 1M/year for the first 10 years.

On an arena project worth 600M and for which he gets all revenue from all events.

Yet Katz was demanding MORE than this deal. lmfao

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05-10-2013, 12:01 AM
  #907
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They have a 30 year lease that extends to 2033, with a clause that would force anyone attempting to move the tea out of Glendale to pay out upwards of 750 million dollars to the city.

It's why every owner has to run the gauntlet of legal proceedings to revise the agreement to more favorable terms(it costs the team too much per year), and the only real option the NHL has is to fold the franchise outright if they want to try relocation.

Greg Jamison is the most recent prospective owner to fail to come up with the capital to satisfy Glendale's financial requirements on the revised lease agreement.
This is incorrect.
The City of Glendale was an unsecured creditor in the Coyotes bankruptcy hearing. When they agreed to support the NHL's bid for the team over Balsille's, they voided the lease and the judge warned them they were forgoing any future possibility to pursue claims.
Glendale has since entered into a series of one year leases with the NHL, that the league has a ten year option to continue to renew the yearly lease at its sole discretion.
As a result of the deals the NHL can decide that they are selling the team to a group that wish to relocate the team and the COG has no legal recourse.

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05-10-2013, 12:09 AM
  #908
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Exactly.

How hard is it for people to actually be aware of the present agreement on the table while wading into the debate?


Its laughable That Katz has the naming rights for a building he doesn't own and a building he doesn't front one dime in.

Even worse, the amount that Katz puts in annually is barely more than what he can make on naming rights and the 2M/yr "advertising" payback the city is giving him for the first 10yrs.

Its quite conceivable that Katz will be out of pocket 1M/year for the first 10 years.

On an arena project worth 600M and for which he gets all revenue from all events.

Yet Katz was demanding MORE than this deal. lmfao
I'm sorry I haven't spent enough time reading all about the tabled deal for you.

Actually, no I'm not.

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05-10-2013, 12:12 AM
  #909
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Originally Posted by SeriousBusiness View Post
I'm sorry I haven't spent enough time reading all about the tabled deal for you.

Actually, no I'm not.
Take a step back and consider how and why you are talking about, and evaluating this deal, if you don't know the deal.

I'll leave that for you to consider.

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05-10-2013, 01:09 AM
  #910
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Exactly.

How hard is it for people to actually be aware of the present agreement on the table while wading into the debate?

Its laughable That Katz has the naming rights for a building he doesn't own and a building he doesn't front one dime in.

Even worse, the amount that Katz puts in annually is barely more than what he can make on naming rights and the 2M/yr "advertising" payback the city is giving him for the first 10yrs.

Its quite conceivable that Katz will be out of pocket 1M/year for the first 10 years.

On an arena project worth 600M and for which he gets all revenue from all events.

Yet Katz was demanding MORE than this deal. lmfao
So you don't consider the $145M to purchase the Oilers, along with a $100M investment into the arena "not a single dime"? Yet you're parading around complaining about nickles and dimes that come from the taxpayers pothole fund it's going to take to complete it?

Your argument has always been steeped in some ulterior motive. There is no rational discourse about the arena without these hyperbolic claims such as in your post I quoted.

I have no idea what your beef is with not supporting a joint project between Katz and the City in regards to a world class arena that is a major step in modernizing the city, but I have a feeling that you've taken it personal. There is no way someone who believes themselves to be logical to engage in such illogical and emotionally fueled rhetoric.

This isn't a project that screws anyone. Katz collects the revenue to keep the Oilers in Edmonton; it has to be done otherwise this team will not be able to remain competitive. This benefits the city because it involves the community on top of a revitalization project. The increased tax revenue alone is worth it not to mention the property values that will skyrocket. The people enjoy the pride of probably one of if not the best arenas in the world that houses a team with some incredible history with an owner that's committed to winning. And all you can do is sit there and moan and complain about tax dollars this and greedy Katz that. Stop being bitter and embrace what this will do to Edmonton.

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05-10-2013, 01:13 AM
  #911
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So you don't consider the $145M to purchase the Oilers, along with a $100M investment into the arena "not a single dime"? Yet you're parading around complaining about nickles and dimes that come from the taxpayers pothole fund it's going to take to complete it?

Your argument has always been steeped in some ulterior motive. There is no rational discourse about the arena without these hyperbolic claims such as in your post I quoted.

I have no idea what your beef is with not supporting a joint project between Katz and the City in regards to a world class arena that is a major step in modernizing the city, but I have a feeling that you've taken it personal. There is no way someone who believes themselves to be logical to engage in such illogical and emotionally fueled rhetoric.

This isn't a project that screws anyone. Katz collects the revenue to keep the Oilers in Edmonton; it has to be done otherwise this team will not be able to remain competitive. This benefits the city because it involves the community on top of a revitalization project. The increased tax revenue alone is worth it not to mention the property values that will skyrocket. The people enjoy the pride of probably one of if not the best arenas in the world that houses a team with some incredible history with an owner that's committed to winning. And all you can do is sit there and moan and complain about tax dollars this and greedy Katz that. Stop being bitter and embrace what this will do to Edmonton.
None of your post is relevant at all to what I stated.

Theres no substantiation whatsoever to the bolded subjective comments.

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05-10-2013, 05:52 AM
  #912
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None of your post is relevant at all to what I stated.

Theres no substantiation whatsoever to the bolded subjective comments.
Well...it would go a long way to helping revitalize that area so I get the modernizing comment. It would be near impossible to ascertain the exact spinoff of such a developement but it isn't far fetched to assume (I know the saying...he he) property values would increase. Even now real estate listings in that area are trying to cash in on the revived upsacale urban community that the arena once built, would become. I get why Edmontonians are pissed at Katz but I have a hard time viewing the arena as anything but a positive step for developement in our city. Considering the other hair brained money wasted schemes the city has come up with, 55 mil seems like a drop in the bucket.

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05-10-2013, 09:48 AM
  #913
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So you don't consider the $145M to purchase the Oilers, along with a $100M investment into the arena "not a single dime"? Yet you're parading around complaining about nickles and dimes that come from the taxpayers pothole fund it's going to take to complete it?
Purchasing the team is not an investment in the building unless he wants to put up part ownership in the team as stake in the building. His investment in the building is an agreement to pay rent, does it really make much sense for the city to invest $500 million + dollars to make back $146.5 million over 35 years?

It looks like the city is taking all the risk and making all the commitment to this team for minimal benefit. There is a deal to be worked out here but this looks to be incredibly beneficial to Katz whereas selling or moving looks to be a tricky proposition at best. The city shouldnt let Katz dictate the terms of the deal, if it makes sense then do it but he will still be better off making a deal here than he will elsewhere.

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05-10-2013, 10:29 AM
  #914
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Originally Posted by molsonmuscle360 View Post
A lot of what I was trying to point out was he was saying NHL players from all cities take their money "home" in the off-season. Well, many NHL players call Alberta home, so therefore that theory of his that all the hockey money goes off somewhere else is wrong.
This is actually a very good point, which pretty much negates the whole theory that players who play here take their money and run.

Jbo, Lupul, Boychuck, Chimera, Bourque, Iginla(use to), Brodziak off the top of my head guys that spend most the summer here.

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05-10-2013, 10:46 AM
  #915
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So you don't consider the $145M to purchase the Oilers, along with a $100M investment into the arena "not a single dime"? Yet you're parading around complaining about nickles and dimes that come from the taxpayers pothole fund it's going to take to complete it?

Your argument has always been steeped in some ulterior motive. There is no rational discourse about the arena without these hyperbolic claims such as in your post I quoted.

I have no idea what your beef is with not supporting a joint project between Katz and the City in regards to a world class arena that is a major step in modernizing the city, but I have a feeling that you've taken it personal. There is no way someone who believes themselves to be logical to engage in such illogical and emotionally fueled rhetoric.

This isn't a project that screws anyone. Katz collects the revenue to keep the Oilers in Edmonton; it has to be done otherwise this team will not be able to remain competitive. This benefits the city because it involves the community on top of a revitalization project. The increased tax revenue alone is worth it not to mention the property values that will skyrocket. The people enjoy the pride of probably one of if not the best arenas in the world that houses a team with some incredible history with an owner that's committed to winning. And all you can do is sit there and moan and complain about tax dollars this and greedy Katz that. Stop being bitter and embrace what this will do to Edmonton.
What sheer and utter nonsense. How some people actually buy into the baloney of Katz being some benevolent prince on a white horse that is only through his generosity keeping a team here is just laughable. $145 million? LOL bargain of the century for an NHL team. $100 million investment? As in over the life of the project as in paying a few million a year on a project where he will be RAKING in huge dollars.

All of the benefits for Katz are based on pretty sound projections of revenue from past arena revenue and oiler ticket sales. All the benefits to the whole city of Edmonton are based on some nebulous optimistic projections and oft disproven theories that a hockey arena brings in tons of benefits for a city.

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05-10-2013, 10:53 AM
  #916
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This is actually a very good point, which pretty much negates the whole theory that players who play here take their money and run.

Jbo, Lupul, Boychuck, Chimera, Bourque, Iginla(use to), Brodziak off the top of my head guys that spend most the summer here.
How much of Sheldon sourays money has stayed in Edmtonon, we are talking about 15 million or so. How much of whitneys money, 12 million or so is going to stay here? How much of hemsky money will stay here at 25 million or so? How about Katz himself with a residence in Vancouver.

Heck the best thing you can say about horcoff is he seems to be settled here with all his millions. At least until he retires at which time who knows.

The over all principle is that these guys make so much money from the community and teams they play for that in most cases and I would say this for all teams, the majority of the millions teams pay in salaries do not end up staying in the city they got paid in.

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05-10-2013, 10:56 AM
  #917
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Exactly.

How hard is it for people to actually be aware of the present agreement on the table while wading into the debate?

Its laughable That Katz has the naming rights for a building he doesn't own and a building he doesn't front one dime in.

Even worse, the amount that Katz puts in annually is barely more than what he can make on naming rights and the 2M/yr "advertising" payback the city is giving him for the first 10yrs.

Its quite conceivable that Katz will be out of pocket 1M/year for the first 10 years.

On an arena project worth 600M and for which he gets all revenue from all events.

Yet Katz was demanding MORE than this deal. lmfao
I bet you'll be lucky to get it done for that. At least north another 100M before this is all said and done.

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05-10-2013, 10:57 AM
  #918
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How much of Sheldon sourays money has stayed in Edmtonon, we are talking about 15 million or so. How much of whitneys money, 12 million or so is going to stay here? How much of hemsky money will stay here at 25 million or so? How about Katz himself with a residence in Vancouver.

Heck the best thing you can say about horcoff is he seems to be settled here with all his millions. At least until he retires at which time who knows.

The over all principle is that these guys make so much money from the community and teams they play for that in most cases and I would say this for all teams, the majority of the millions teams pay in salaries do not end up staying in the city they got paid in.
How much of the money that Smyth made while in Colorado and LA came here? How about the guys I mentioned, let alone all the guys from Southern alberta that live in this province. There are lots of guys that train here in the off-season as well that have no ties to the city, Chara use to spend a month every summer here as his agent had all his clients training here.

Maybe the whole 65mil in salary isn't accounted for, but a good chunk is.

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05-10-2013, 12:13 PM
  #919
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
How much of the money that Smyth made while in Colorado and LA came here? How about the guys I mentioned, let alone all the guys from Southern alberta that live in this province. There are lots of guys that train here in the off-season as well that have no ties to the city, Chara use to spend a month every summer here as his agent had all his clients training here.

Maybe the whole 65mil in salary isn't accounted for, but a good chunk is.
On what basis do you make that assumption?

There's nothing but your opinion on that.

Is it true that many Oiler players leave Edmonton after the season is over, and that some do not invest their salaries in town?

Absolutely.

Is it true that some non-Oiler NHL players still come back to Edmonton during the off season and may have houses here?

Sure.

What does it matter that Chara trains for a month here? Did he buy a house here? I'm guessing that Chara renting for a month here doesn't mean he's investing any significant amount of money into the city.

In order to get any clarity in the issue - do we know which NHL players actually own a house in Edmonton and its environs?

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05-10-2013, 12:26 PM
  #920
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On what basis do you make that assumption?

There's nothing but your opinion on that.

Is it true that many Oiler players leave Edmonton after the season is over, and that some do not invest their salaries in town?

Absolutely.

Is it true that some non-Oiler NHL players still come back to Edmonton during the off season and may have houses here?

Sure.

What does it matter that Chara trains for a month here? Did he buy a house here? I'm guessing that Chara renting for a month here doesn't mean he's investing any significant amount of money into the city.

In order to get any clarity in the issue - do we know which NHL players actually own a house in Edmonton and its environs?
So why is the opposite true then? Why can we assume that Gagner is taking all his moeny and not spending it here? Or Souray never spent any money in Alberta?

And where exactly is the money Jbo, Boychuck, Langkow, Chimera, etc... going? It can't be STL, Boston or Washington right?

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05-10-2013, 02:19 PM
  #921
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So you don't consider the $145M to purchase the Oilers, along with a $100M investment into the arena "not a single dime"? Yet you're parading around complaining about nickles and dimes that come from the taxpayers pothole fund it's going to take to complete it?

Your argument has always been steeped in some ulterior motive. There is no rational discourse about the arena without these hyperbolic claims such as in your post I quoted.

I have no idea what your beef is with not supporting a joint project between Katz and the City in regards to a world class arena that is a major step in modernizing the city, but I have a feeling that you've taken it personal. There is no way someone who believes themselves to be logical to engage in such illogical and emotionally fueled rhetoric.

This isn't a project that screws anyone. Katz collects the revenue to keep the Oilers in Edmonton; it has to be done otherwise this team will not be able to remain competitive. This benefits the city because it involves the community on top of a revitalization project. The increased tax revenue alone is worth it not to mention the property values that will skyrocket. The people enjoy the pride of probably one of if not the best arenas in the world that houses a team with some incredible history with an owner that's committed to winning. And all you can do is sit there and moan and complain about tax dollars this and greedy Katz that. Stop being bitter and embrace what this will do to Edmonton.
Katz is not investing 100 million into this project

Go to your banker and ask to borrow money for a commercial building and when he asks you what your equity involvement will be, tell him it will come from repayment of the loan via cashflow you earn from the new building. Circle back and tell me how hard he laughs at you.

Katz has zero interest in using any of his own money for this venture, hell he borrowed a substantial part of the purchase price from CTI.

I have no issue with this but please don't sell me garbage and tell me its a steak

And as any economist worth his salt wil ltell you, the notion that increased tax revenues from a new buidling will in essence fund the said building is a story built on sand. Any increase in tax revenue will come from A) an adjustment in assessment value that is controlled by the city (commonly referred to as a tax increase) B) at the expense of other areas of the city that will likely see a loss of property value.

Again I'm not anti-arena but I am anti-being treated like a a$$h***. CRL and long term payback of arena funds via hockey revenue are just fancy ways of saying this building will be substantially paid for by tax payers and will be done so via tax increases in Edmonton

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05-10-2013, 02:26 PM
  #922
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Originally Posted by Halibut View Post
Purchasing the team is not an investment in the building unless he wants to put up part ownership in the team as stake in the building. His investment in the building is an agreement to pay rent, does it really make much sense for the city to invest $500 million + dollars to make back $146.5 million over 35 years?

It looks like the city is taking all the risk and making all the commitment to this team for minimal benefit. There is a deal to be worked out here but this looks to be incredibly beneficial to Katz whereas selling or moving looks to be a tricky proposition at best. The city shouldnt let Katz dictate the terms of the deal, if it makes sense then do it but he will still be better off making a deal here than he will elsewhere.
If there's no team, there's no arena. So ignoring the reason behind all this constitutes cherry picking.

There is no risk involved in this project. It's going to make money for both Katz and the City. And of course you assume the city is stealing $500M for the project.

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05-10-2013, 02:38 PM
  #923
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Katz is not investing 100 million into this project

Go to your banker and ask to borrow money for a commercial building and when he asks you what your equity involvement will be, tell him it will come from repayment of the loan via cashflow you earn from the new building. Circle back and tell me how hard he laughs at you.

Katz has zero interest in using any of his own money for this venture, hell he borrowed a substantial part of the purchase price from CTI.

I have no issue with this but please don't sell me garbage and tell me its a steak

And as any economist worth his salt wil ltell you, the notion that increased tax revenues from a new buidling will in essence fund the said building is a story built on sand. Any increase in tax revenue will come from A) an adjustment in assessment value that is controlled by the city (commonly referred to as a tax increase) B) at the expense of other areas of the city that will likely see a loss of property value.

Again I'm not anti-arena but I am anti-being treated like a a$$h***. CRL and long term payback of arena funds via hockey revenue are just fancy ways of saying this building will be substantially paid for by tax payers and will be done so via tax increases in Edmonton
Katz Funding: $146.5M
City Funding: $219M

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
What sheer and utter nonsense. How some people actually buy into the baloney of Katz being some benevolent prince on a white horse that is only through his generosity keeping a team here is just laughable. $145 million? LOL bargain of the century for an NHL team. $100 million investment? As in over the life of the project as in paying a few million a year on a project where he will be RAKING in huge dollars.

All of the benefits for Katz are based on pretty sound projections of revenue from past arena revenue and oiler ticket sales. All the benefits to the whole city of Edmonton are based on some nebulous optimistic projections and oft disproven theories that a hockey arena brings in tons of benefits for a city.


No white knight thinking here, just the facts. It's a joint project that benefits the entire city. Please don't forget to visit http://www.edmonton.ca/city_governme...agreement.aspx so you can stop assuming Katz is not contributing to the project and the city is funding the entire thing. Being educated and informed on the matter can do wonders.

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05-10-2013, 02:42 PM
  #924
bleed_oil
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
This is getting stupid and a lot of people here are showing their true understanding of this situation, which is to say nil.

They're not moving from Phoenix because the city of Glendale built a new arena for the Coyotes to play in. The NHL is not giving up on that market. Plain and simple. Bettman is showing future owners and potential markets that they will do their best to keep those franchises in those cities that have built new arenas.

There are many other markets that the Coyotes could relocate to and many that are waiting in the wings for expansion and/or relocation. Including: Quebec City, Seattle, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Houston, Hamilton to name a few.

And Katz isn't going to move the team, all he's going to do is sell it. The new owner will not likely be a local (No more billionaires left in Edmonton) nor would he really see any interest in keeping the Oilers in a market that is tiny and completely saturated with no economically viable arena. So he'll just move it to some new market.

That's the reality. The hubris that Edmonton will get another team or that this team will never move is astounding. You really willing to call that bluff? Did you forget how close they were to moving last time?

Hopefully the decision makers in this city will make the right decision and do what it takes to get this thing going before the cost estimates become so stale it needs another $5M/year addendum.
Seattle has no rink and will not have a rink unless an NBA team is relocated there. QC already has a proposed owner and will get a team likely through expansion so the league gets its expansion fees. But do you think a team in QC will have better revenue generation abilities than one in Edmonton? If so you are truly ignorant.
Quebec City has a metro population MUCH smaller than Edmonton and none of the resource based revenue we have.
Hamilton is still very much in question as a relocation market due to territorial issue with Buffalo and Toronto.
Kansas City, Houston and Vegas are hardly slam dunks in terms of revenue generation and none of them would be the hockey markets Edmonton is.
How did the Phoenix Coyotes do financially? How about Atlanta? Those are large American markets where teams lost ~20 Million a year. Do you think Katz loses that kind of money in his old run down rink in Edmonton? No I would suspect he is breaking even or making a small amount of money.

I'm sorry the fear mongering will not work here. Also I cant help but notice that you do not reside in Edmonton and thus your taxes would'nt be effected by the city forking over a huge chunk of change to a billionaire so he can get another golden goose.

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05-10-2013, 02:56 PM
  #925
Moose Coleman
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Katz Funding: $146.5M
City Funding: $219M
Again: Katz is not putting a single penny in up front on this. The city pays the freight, Katz pays some of it back over time. It's not funding if your pay to use something someone else built.

HotToddy's characterization is bang on.

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