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Hurricanes Off Season Thread: When Tlusty doesn't score 40, who will be to blame?

View Poll Results: When Tlusty doesn't hit 40 next year, whose fault will it be?
Eric Staal's Leadership 16 5.80%
Kirk Muller's Coaching 4 1.45%
Patrick Eaves' Shoe Collection 25 9.06%
Defense 5 1.81%
Lack of depth everywhere 5 1.81%
Special Teams 3 1.09%
No team toughness 10 3.62%
JR needs to go!!! 5 1.81%
NO FLAGS AT CENTER ICE!?! 203 73.55%
Voters: 276. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-10-2013, 02:45 PM
  #226
StormCast
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Originally Posted by wallym View Post
It's not having a lot of centers. It's trying to replace all-star centers with inferior centers/players in juniors, so the all-stars can move to the wing based on, usually, non-sensical rationales.

But I guess that's par for the course. I know there was a contingent on these boards that were adamantly calling for Eric to be moved to wing for years, too.

Re Jordan's playmaking. The board was gushing over his passing pre-skinner concussion. And once Ruutu rejoined the fold, Jordan finished the season with 8 assists in 11 games.

The real travesty in all this, though, is how Riley Nash, savior of the 3rd line thanks to his play vs. Florida and Washington AHL rosters, has dropped out of the discussion. Could have sworn he was going to stick!
But in terms of JStaal moving to wing, either on the first or second line it's anything but non-sensical. He is frankly not an effective playmaker regardless of how many assists he got in final 11 games. As I contended earlier, I'd rather have Ruutu center the second line which he did very well for the Skins and Finns line.

He isn't as good as JStaal defensively but that line shouldn't be playing a shutdown role anyway - build the 3rd line for that and keep Skinner on the 2nd line. Ruutu is far from elite but sees the ice better and is a better passer than Jordan.

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05-10-2013, 02:45 PM
  #227
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They have to be dismantled. They're at the cap next year with like 8 roster spots open.

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05-10-2013, 02:56 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
They have to be dismantled. They're at the cap next year with like 8 roster spots open.
Didn't realize their situation was Chicago-bad. Moving Luongo this summer will be really crucial for them to avoid a total meltdown.

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05-10-2013, 02:58 PM
  #229
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What did Jordan Staal do so wrong this year that we *have* to move him to wing? He scored at 40+ ES point pace this year (again) while being a physical man beast. The only criticism is that he wasn't as strong defensively as advertised and that he isn't a "playmaker".

For Skinner at center, I think its fine if we can actually get Welsh/Dalpe/Boychuk/Rask/5th overall to come in and help with our winger problem. The reason it's so insane to me right now is that it makes Tuomo Ruutu and Patrick Dwyer our 2nd line wingers when healthy (:facepalm). On paper, our top 6 is only 'great' if we can slot Skinner and Ruutu on the 2nd.

If we can get impact wingers, I'm fine with it. Skinner would excel against 3rd pairing competition, and it would give us a great 1-2-3 punch.

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05-10-2013, 03:01 PM
  #230
tarheelhockey
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Jordan's lack of being a playmaker is not a problem if we find him a winger who IS a playmaker.

There is no rule that says the center has to be the one doing all the playmaking. Jordan has a solid offensive game in other areas.

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05-10-2013, 03:04 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
What did Jordan Staal do so wrong this year that we *have* to move him to wing? He scored at 40+ ES point pace this year (again) while being a physical man beast. The only criticism is that he wasn't as strong defensively as advertised and that he isn't a "playmaker".

For Skinner at center, I think its fine if we can actually get Welsh/Dalpe/Boychuk/Rask/5th overall to come in and help with our winger problem. The reason it's so insane to me right now is that it makes Tuomo Ruutu and Patrick Dwyer our 2nd line wingers when healthy (:facepalm). On paper, our top 6 is only 'great' if we can slot Skinner and Ruutu on the 2nd.

If we can get impact wingers, I'm fine with it. Skinner would excel against 3rd pairing competition, and it would give us a great 1-2-3 punch.
JStaal was ok - just ok. But what I'm advocating is that he could be better and more impactful on the wing. Again, I say Ruutu centers JStaal and Skinner. Basically JStaal taking over for Jokinen in the old Skins and Finns line.

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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Jordan's lack of being a playmaker is not a problem if we find him a winger who IS a playmaker.

There is no rule that says the center has to be the one doing all the playmaking. Jordan has a solid offensive game in other areas.
But then have both Staals at center being reliant on playmaking wings? Makes little sense to me. Now take your comment and apply it to the transition game. Jordan is a plodding skater, though decent for his size, and has very marginal stickhandling ability. The solution is to not to have your playmaking wing take over to get the puck in the zone because his ice is limited.

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05-10-2013, 03:08 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
They have to be dismantled. They're at the cap next year with like 8 roster spots open.
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Originally Posted by Oenatzu View Post
Didn't realize their situation was Chicago-bad. Moving Luongo this summer will be really crucial for them to avoid a total meltdown.
This is where smart teams manage to skip a step or two in their building process. Atlantapeg scooped Byfuglien and Ladd out of Chicago for peanuts. Even though it blew up in their face, Toronto got Kessel at what should have been a discount price.

Considering our situation, JR would be wise to circle the Canucks like a shark smelling blood. This is not the time to be a nice guy. If he thinks he can get a guy like Edler at a discount, he should go for it. There's no better time.

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05-10-2013, 03:09 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
JStaal was ok - just ok. But what I'm advocating is that he could be better and more impactful on the wing. Again, I say Ruutu centers JStaal and Skinner. Basically JStaal taking over for Jokinen in the old Skins and Finns line.


But then have both Staals at center being reliant on playmaking wings? Makes little sense to me. Now take your comment and apply it to the transition game. Jordan is a plodding skater, though decent for his size, and has very marginal stickhandling ability. The solution is to not to have your playmaking wing take over to get the puck in the zone because his ice is limited.
So JStaal becoming the playmaker on the old Skins and Fins line? I think you are confusing which Fin is which, because I'm 99% Jokinen played center.

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05-10-2013, 03:12 PM
  #234
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So JStaal becoming the playmaker on the old Skins and Fins line? I think you are confusing which Fin is which, because I'm 99% Jokinen played center.
They both saw time at C, but Ruutu was the primary center on that line.

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05-10-2013, 03:17 PM
  #235
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They both saw time at C, but Ruutu was the primary center on that line.
Fair enough, i must have misremembered. i guess my question is what exactly makes Ruutu a better "play maker"? Ruutu seems just as perfectly suited to play wing as you suggest JStaal is.

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05-10-2013, 03:18 PM
  #236
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They both saw time at C, but Ruutu was the primary center on that line.
Yes, in accordance to Stormy's reference to the "old" Skins n Fins, playing at their best when we made the Eastern Conference Finals.

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05-10-2013, 03:19 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Jordan's lack of being a playmaker is not a problem if we find him a winger who IS a playmaker.

There is no rule that says the center has to be the one doing all the playmaking. Jordan has a solid offensive game in other areas.
This is true but the list of legit top-6 playmaking wingers is very small.

Hemsky or Parenteau might be available, they are good ones. Hossa, Sharp, and Eriksson might be available at a high costs.

Semin already plays for the Canes. MSL, Kane, and Wheeler aren't being traded. Whitney and Elias probably aren't available or wanted.

Prospal and Jagr are ancient but available as UFA.

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05-10-2013, 03:21 PM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
JStaal was ok - just ok. But what I'm advocating is that he could be better and more impactful on the wing. Again, I say Ruutu centers JStaal and Skinner. Basically JStaal taking over for Jokinen in the old Skins and Finns line.

I'd rather have an "ok" Jordan Staal than anyone else on our team center the second line. But then, that's just me.

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05-10-2013, 03:23 PM
  #239
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Jordan was brought here to play center. He's a better natural fit at center than Sutter, and we never thought about moving Sutter. If we're going to evaluate his career potential based off 40 odd games of a shortened lockout season then so be it, but Pittsburgh won a cup with him playing center and playing it well so the history of him being effective at that position is more important than gut hunches about where he'd be better suited.

Skinner is a different story because he hasn't played center since Juniors and he won a Calder as a winger. He loves to drive wide and use his skating to make chances and when he's on his game that is where he is most effective. Limiting his offensive creativity by taking him off the boards is not the answer to get him to distribute the puck more evenly. The answer to getting him to do that is working on what makes him successful on the wing and fixing what is broken, not throwing out the baby with the bathwater and forcing him to pass because he's not leading the play up the ice.

What about Skinner screams center to everybody? His lack of playmaking? His terrible defense? His inability in the faceoff dot? The fact that he's a one man show in the offensive zone? Never taking the simple option and instead trying to gain the zone by himself?

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05-10-2013, 03:23 PM
  #240
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Fair enough, i must have misremembered. i guess my question is what exactly makes Ruutu a better "play maker"? Ruutu seems just as perfectly suited to play wing as you suggest JStaal is.
Roger that, Joe.

Again, I don't think Ruutu is a great center but I do think he's clearly better than Jordan in terms of vision and hands. Both of which lead to better passing and he's a better stickhandler.

Quote:
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I'd rather have an "ok" Jordan Staal than anyone else on our team center the second line. But then, that's just me.
Even if he could be a top power-wing? I think Ruutu could be a decent 2C again but Jordan could really elevate his game on the wing. I'll take that every time.

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05-10-2013, 03:24 PM
  #241
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I'd rather have an "ok" Jordan Staal than anyone else on our team center the second line. But then, that's just me.
...and Kirk Muller I'm guessing.

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05-10-2013, 03:33 PM
  #242
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This is true but the list of legit top-6 playmaking wingers is very small.

Hemsky or Parenteau might be available, they are good ones. Hossa, Sharp, and Eriksson might be available at a high costs.

Semin already plays for the Canes. MSL, Kane, and Wheeler aren't being traded. Whitney and Elias probably aren't available or wanted.

Prospal and Jagr are ancient but available as UFA.
I don't think anyone expects we are going to go out and acquire a player of the caliber you're suggesting, given our current cap situation. Given that this player would be on a line with Skinner and Staal, he doesn't have to be an All Star. He just has to be capable of playing the role.

Think Dalpe, if he ever got his act together.

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05-10-2013, 03:35 PM
  #243
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Tlusty is a good playmaking winger as well, but that Sweet TEA line is too good to mess with. I honestly can't say how I feel with Skinner at center because I've never seen a Kitchner game and missed the last game of this season where he supposedly played center. However, I feel that Jordan's playmaking is a little underrated. Ruutu too, and maybe Ruutu's vision overshadowed that of Jordan's once he returned and Skinner went down. Jordan's hands were less than impressive, something he must work on, but I think we should keep that line in tact for next season as well.

Jokinen was the better playmaking winger of that bunch, but if the money that went to his buyout is used on someone just as, if not more effective than he, I'll be satisfied.

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05-10-2013, 03:40 PM
  #244
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Instead of focusing on Jordan's weaknesses and trying to adapt the line to that, instead, why not play to his strengths. Jordan is a bull in a china shop (and I mean that in a good way). Even with an "elite playmaker", I don't expect him to light it up as he's not that type of player.

I still think the 2nd line could be very effective as a physical, hard to play against, bruising line that wears the other team down, is responsive defensively, and gets ugly goals by working hard in the corners and driving to the net. Personally, I'd like to see the Canes get another physical winger with decent skill to go along with Jordan and Ruutu.

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05-10-2013, 03:41 PM
  #245
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I don't think anyone expects we are going to go out and acquire a player of the caliber you're suggesting, given our current cap situation. Given that this player would be on a line with Skinner and Staal, he doesn't have to be an All Star. He just has to be capable of playing the role.

Think Dalpe, if he ever got his act together.
From what I've seen, Rask and Terry are the only possible NHL calibre pass first forwards in the system. Monahan would be another.

Di Giuseppe may be another, I haven't ever watched him play so I can't say.

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05-10-2013, 03:47 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
Instead of focusing on Jordan's weaknesses and trying to adapt the line to that, instead, why not play to his strengths. Jordan is a bull in a china shop (and I mean that in a good way). Even with an "elite playmaker", I don't expect him to light it up as he's not that type of player.

I still think the 2nd line could be very effective as a physical, hard to play against, bruising line that wears the other team down, is responsive defensively, and gets ugly goals by working hard in the corners and driving to the net. Personally, I'd like to see the Canes get another physical winger with decent skill to go along with Jordan and Ruutu.
What you just described as our effective 2nd line, is pretty much the exact definition of a traditional 3rd line in the NHL.

This is why some people call them a 3rd line, more to do with the role than the minutes given.

I think the team would be most effective with a 20, 15, 15, 10 ideal split (taking out pp and PK) anyways. Just saying this is where the confusion stems from, IMO.

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05-10-2013, 03:52 PM
  #247
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1. Draft Drouin (I actually think he is liable to fall a la Fowler, Couturier, etc. due to playstyle and size).
2. Put him on a wing with Jordan Staal and Skinner.
3. ????
4. Profit.

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05-10-2013, 03:57 PM
  #248
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Even if he could be a top power-wing? I think Ruutu could be a decent 2C again but Jordan could really elevate his game on the wing. I'll take that every time.
I think he could be a top power wing, I just also happen to think that the Ruutu-Jordan relationship will be more successful with Staal in the center.

In either case, we need someone who has playmaking abilities, either at wing or at center, to help Jordan Staal.

We should tender this guy an offer:


If you look closely enough, you will see that Danny Briere is in that photo.

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05-10-2013, 03:58 PM
  #249
Boom Boom Anton
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What you just described as our effective 2nd line, is pretty much the exact definition of a traditional 3rd line in the NHL.
Maybe, but not quite IMO. I'd see a line like this putting up quite a few more points than a traditional 3rd line.

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05-10-2013, 03:59 PM
  #250
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Instead of focusing on Jordan's weaknesses and trying to adapt the line to that, instead, why not play to his strengths. Jordan is a bull in a china shop (and I mean that in a good way). Even with an "elite playmaker", I don't expect him to light it up as he's not that type of player.

I still think the 2nd line could be very effective as a physical, hard to play against, bruising line that wears the other team down, is responsive defensively, and gets ugly goals by working hard in the corners and driving to the net. Personally, I'd like to see the Canes get another physical winger with decent skill to go along with Jordan and Ruutu.
I like this idea as well. We should have waited until Ruutu came back to release Juice because he really would thrived under these circumstances. He and Skinner always showed good chemistry imo, so the third line wouldn't be a bad option for the both of them. His problem was that he wasn't aggressive enough and may have lacked a scoring touch, and oh yeah, diving! He wasn't utilized properly when he was centering the third line with options such as LaRose, Bowman, and Wallace. But if the third line is our secondary scoring unit this upcoming season, Jokinen's presence will surely be missed. Now our problem is that we lack depth, so lining up Skinner will do next to nothing about improving chemistry with other players. I know it's hindsight but I just can't help not to tinker with my fantasy lineup.

Sweet TEA
Ruutu-Staal-Dwyer (checking line)
Jokinen-Rask-Skinner
Nodl-Nash-Wallace
Westgarth

Gleason-Faulk
Pitkanen-McBain
Harrison-Murphy
Sangs

Ward
Ellis

Hey, maybe we should trade McBain for Jokinen.

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