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Subban and that bridge contract..(what to expect with his next extension)

View Poll Results: Bridge contract
Bridge contract was a smart deal. It was a good move for both parties 107 54.04%
Should have signed him long term (likely cheaper) when we had the chance. Bit of a blunder by MB. 91 45.96%
Voters: 198. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-10-2013, 02:00 PM
  #126
MM425
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Pk is such a different animal to the hockey establishment , in terms of energy, the way he communicates, his swagger , and yes his colour there are going to be some who assess him with these things in mind.

I have some of my own stories as well and I will just say this . Subban has rippled the milquetoast middle aged hockey world and some people don't like it.
I think you are 100% dead on... it still boggles my mind he's garnered this much hatred by some of those "in the establishment" as you say. Reading some of the main board stuff on him is laughable.

Or how CBC made a big deal of him yelling at Paicoretty. OH MY STOP THE PRESSES teammates yelling at each other! He must be disrespectful!

I know Canada likes to think of hockey players as a "different" brand of professional athlete but with that said... Subban's "energy" or "swagger" or ego or whatever is nothing even close to comparable athletes in the other major North American sports.

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05-10-2013, 02:00 PM
  #127
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The whole bridge contract thing was just a matter of sticking to club's MO was it not?
Maybe. That's what was said. I don't really have any reason to believe there were other reasons, but MB could have been embellishing the truth here. There's what is being said to the public and what is the real truth.

But if that's purely because of a club modus operandi, some type of unwritten rule... then it's stupid. You gotta make room for exceptions. There are exceptions to every rule.

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I don't think you need to worry about bad blood... I mean, I wouldn't have had a problem if they locked him up long-term but at the same time, I respect the club's right to adhere to certain policies or principles in contract negotiations.
Did you hear Subban's comments in the medias right before our big slump ? He sounded pretty bitter about how he was treated. He said he took notes on who questioned him and he remembers. He sounds like a guy who has a long memory. I just hope that he truly has an allegiance to the habs.

****ing medias. They were so dumb last summer and when he was holding out. Turned the fans against him too.

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At the end of the day, Subban is among the most talented hockey players in the world right now and likely will be at the end of his contract and will be paid accordingly. It will be a much easier negotiation in that sense.
I said last summer that Subban was MB's easiest no brainer move of the summer. But instead he turned it into a circus hold out. What we see as the easy thing... can turn out differently than we thought I guess.

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05-10-2013, 02:10 PM
  #128
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I don't know how anyone rational can say the contract is not a blunder.

Was it the contract that motivated him? Not a chance. It was unnecessary to go through that painful process with him, it did more harm than good long term. But I have faith in my boy Subban, he loves the Canadiens and won't abandon our team over petty stuff like this, he will make his millions (especially now).

What humbled Subban was part his own doing as he matured greatly as a person, and also Therrien whom I assume sat down with him earlier in the year.

The on-ice performance is merely a carry-over from the previous season where he was dominant on both ends of the ice like he has been all year. And that was on a last place team. No coach or contract can ever take credit for that he is truly a great player that with every season grows exponentially. I'm truly excited to think of him in his prime years. Anyone remember Markov at this age? He barely had 24 points and wasn't a defensive wizard yet. He's going to be an absolute monster and it's going to happen.

Bergevin's first mistake no doubt in my mind, and the second was the hasty signing of DD. But I still love him.

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05-10-2013, 02:12 PM
  #129
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wow, some crazy posts in this thread.

Personally I thought it was a good move at the time, think it looks even better now as long as the team gets Subban inked long term at some point.

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05-10-2013, 02:13 PM
  #130
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For the pole, a bit of both. It was a smart move to sign PK cheap, it helped for the cap and would have been brilliant had PK not been as good. But now MB has to extend him with a good contract, more than what was probably asked before.

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05-10-2013, 02:13 PM
  #131
Des Louise
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
It just don't make sense and really amplifies that MB is a rookie. Goes on stingy contracts talks with pk which results in his team losing a top defender for a few games, but then goes out in middle of the season and rewards, what seems to me at least, the medias golden boys in cube and DD which seemed like more then generous contracts.

MB needs to stick to trusting the people who work for the game like timmins, instead on focusing building a media loved roster.
Much is made of the Bouillon and DD deals. Not entirely without reason but the truth is that.. when MB signed DD, it was a good deal at the time. If DD kept on being a 55-60 pts offensively minded center who has great vision and works hard every shift. But instead, DD just seemed to go into hibernation mode. I am truly baffled at what has happened since he signed the big deal. It's like he became a completely different player. I don't know what it is. But something is going on there. I don't know if MB could have seen that coming... if he could then it's a mistake, if he couldn't then the deal was a good one at the time. I'm going to give him 20 games into the next season to show me that the player MB signed isn't completely gone.

As for Bouillon. He was doing a perfectly fine job on the #1 seed in the east as the 6th guy and he wasn't paid much. He brings an examplary attitude and has a lot of experience. He also has an allegiance to the team. Now after that, Bouillon was put in a role he couldn't possibly live up to because of injuries. But really, signing Bouillon doesn't mean we can't upgrade the D. He could be the 7th guy next season. Bouillon as a 7th guy is actually pretty awesome. Few teams would have a better 7th guy. And really, if you look at other teams and their 6th dman, I don't think there is much difference between Bouillon and them.

A lot of guys on these boards just look for any reason to hate Bouillon and DD because they combine certain characteristics that are hated by people around here. But the hate is just over the top. Especially since they are both going to be marginal players on the habs.

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05-10-2013, 02:17 PM
  #132
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I just voted.

But it was more than just a bit of a blunder. It was kind of a big one. We could have inked him long term at 5M, now it will cost 7+. Not to mention the potential bad blood it created.
Who gives a flying ****? Next year and this summer, we'll be in cap heaven, and these 2M will be very easy to find.

Who cares about paying major money for a player who proved had franchise d-man status?

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05-10-2013, 02:18 PM
  #133
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But if that's purely because of a club modus operandi, some type of unwritten rule... then it's stupid. You gotta make room for exceptions. There are exceptions to every rule.

Did you hear Subban's comments in the medias right before our big slump ? He sounded pretty bitter about how he was treated. He said he took notes on who questioned him and he remembers. He sounds like a guy who has a long memory. I just hope that he truly has an allegiance to the habs.

****ing medias. They were so dumb last summer and when he was holding out. Turned the fans against him too.

I said last summer that Subban was MB's easiest no brainer move of the summer. But instead he turned it into a circus hold out. What we see as the easy thing... can turn out differently than we thought I guess.
I think a big part of Subban's break out season was being motivated by the contract negotiation. And he's most certainly going to remember it next time he negotiates with MB. That doesn't mean there's bad blood though.

Lots of franchises... in fact two of the most successful ones of the last 25 years; Detroit and New Jersey, operate under strict club policies so while I agree exceptions should be made, I respect the right for teams to stick to principles. I don't think you can say that a guy sticking to his principles in a negotiation is ever "wrong"... that's how negotiations work.

PK is an obvious can't-miss talent and huge piece of this team moving forward. MB isn't stupid. He's gonna open up Mr. Molson's checkbook for the next contract, rest assured.

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05-10-2013, 02:21 PM
  #134
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I don't see what the problem is with being forced to pay someone alot of money because they earned it.

He'll have earned his next contract...pay him

NOthing wrong with that

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05-10-2013, 02:23 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Who gives a flying ****? Next year and this summer, we'll be in cap heaven, and these 2M will be very easy to find.
So the important thing was to make cap room for when we aren't contenders and don't need cap room - this year and next year ? Seems a bit silly to me.

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Who cares about paying major money for a player who proved had franchise d-man status?
So we're in cap heaven next season and that's awesome - as per your post above - but it won't matter later just because ?

You have convinced me. I'm sold.

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05-10-2013, 02:24 PM
  #136
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Much is made of the Bouillon and DD deals. Not entirely without reason but the truth is that.. when MB signed DD, it was a good deal at the time. If DD kept on being a 55-60 pts offensively minded center who has great vision and works hard every shift. But instead, DD just seemed to go into hibernation mode. I am truly baffled at what has happened since he signed the big deal. It's like he became a completely different player. I don't know what it is. But something is going on there. I don't know if MB could have seen that coming... if he could then it's a mistake, if he couldn't then the deal was a good one at the time. I'm going to give him 20 games into the next season to show me that the player MB signed isn't completely gone.

As for Bouillon. He was doing a perfectly fine job on the #1 seed in the east as the 6th guy and he wasn't paid much. He brings an examplary attitude and has a lot of experience. He also has an allegiance to the team. Now after that, Bouillon was put in a role he couldn't possibly live up to because of injuries. But really, signing Bouillon doesn't mean we can't upgrade the D. He could be the 7th guy next season. Bouillon as a 7th guy is actually pretty awesome. Few teams would have a better 7th guy. And really, if you look at other teams and their 6th dman, I don't think there is much difference between Bouillon and them.

A lot of guys on these boards just look for any reason to hate Bouillon and DD because they combine certain characteristics that are hated by people around here. But the hate is just over the top. Especially since they are both going to be marginal players on the habs.
I'm not a fan of their contracts, but doesn't make them bad contracts/players. Just don't think there was any rush to signing them. (IMO no need either, much rather focus on upgrading those spots and offer them contracts if upgrade not viable)
Kind of funny observation, but there seemed to be no rush i n signing pk (mb basically waited until pk said yes) but some kind of rush in locking up two relativly meaningless players.

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05-10-2013, 02:33 PM
  #137
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I think a big part of Subban's break out season was being motivated by the contract negotiation. And he's most certainly going to remember it next time he negotiates with MB. That doesn't mean there's bad blood though.
I disagree. I think Subban takes his training and his career seriously. He is a consummate professional. I don't think that motivation had much to do with it.

Only PK knows about bad blood really. It's pointless to keep discussing it I shouldn't have brought it up but I only brought it up to say it was possible there might be some. Not saying that Subban is mad at the org for sure.

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Lots of franchises... in fact two of the most successful ones of the last 25 years; Detroit and New Jersey, operate under strict club policies so while I agree exceptions should be made, I respect the right for teams to stick to principles. I don't think you can say that a guy sticking to his principles in a negotiation is ever "wrong"... that's how negotiations work.
Sure you can have policies. But it depends on what they are and how they are applied. Common sense is king in all things. Blindly following policies and rules is good for people with no imagination and no genius.

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PK is an obvious can't-miss talent and huge piece of this team moving forward. MB isn't stupid. He's gonna open up Mr. Molson's checkbook for the next contract, rest assured.
It would be shocking if not, but my point was that it was shocking last summer too.

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05-10-2013, 02:37 PM
  #138
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I'm not a fan of their contracts, but doesn't make them bad contracts/players. Just don't think there was any rush to signing them. (IMO no need either, much rather focus on upgrading those spots and offer them contracts if upgrade not viable)
Kind of funny observation, but there seemed to be no rush i n signing pk (mb basically waited until pk said yes) but some kind of rush in locking up two relativly meaningless players.
I agree, in that sense it was a bit silly. DD was a player we could have waited after the summer to sign. I don't know what Bergevin's motivations were. Maybe he thought that DD would cost more later and he had him where he wanted him ?

So far I'm not a big fan of MB's contractual negotiations. His best deal is the Patch deal. But other than that he has gotten the short end of the stick quite a bit. I remember back before we hired our GM, Bergevin had said he wasn't a numbers guy. With the amount of people he hired I would have guessed that a numbers guy would have been amongst them. Maybe his guy isn't doing a good job of it.

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05-10-2013, 02:37 PM
  #139
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Lots of franchises... in fact two of the most successful ones of the last 25 years; Detroit and New Jersey, operate under strict club policies so while I agree exceptions should be made, I respect the right for teams to stick to principles. I don't think you can say that a guy sticking to his principles in a negotiation is ever "wrong"... that's how negotiations work.
No negotiations work because you make compromises and you find a common ground. Which is what we saw when lock out was resolved. Compromise. PKs contract talks was no negotiation, it was basically MB gave out number and waited for PK to sign.
Which is basically how next contract talks will be, except PK will be in MB shoes. And if MB don't like it, arbitration 1 year, then go fetch UFA money and choose a team that's already built to win.

Sticking to principles and ideas is bad way of negotiating. Its all about NOT sticking to your principles and all about being able to understand the other party's principles, making the other party understand what your needs and principles are and finding a middle ground.

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05-10-2013, 02:46 PM
  #140
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I agree, in that sense it was a bit silly. DD was a player we could have waited after the summer to sign. I don't know what Bergevin's motivations were. Maybe he thought that DD would cost more later and he had him where he wanted him ?

So far I'm not a big fan of MB's contractual negotiations. His best deal is the Patch deal. But other than that he has gotten the short end of the stick quite a bit. I remember back before we hired our GM, Bergevin had said he wasn't a numbers guy. With the amount of people he hired I would have guessed that a numbers guy would have been amongst them. Maybe his guy isn't doing a good job of it.
Honestly I wanted and still want a gm that is a numbers guy ( at least if not skilled at it, just more aware of it)
Same for therrien, he's not an Xs and Os guy. Rather have a coach who is, given how badly he got out coached against sens, even if he surrounds himself with guys who are strategically oriented, obviously it didn't change much.

All to say is that MB is all over the place when it comes to contract talks, and doesn't use much of a logical flow to his job. And I fully agree that there is bad blood. I was pissed with lack of respect got during his contract talks: from fans to media to MB and his team. Can't imagine how PK must feel.

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05-10-2013, 02:53 PM
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In hindsight, it obviously would've been preferable to have him sign a longer contract at the beginning of this season. However, we were all pleased with the bridge contract at the time, since it seemed to be the best thing to do, at the time. You can't blame Bergevin.

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05-10-2013, 02:58 PM
  #142
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In hindsight, it obviously would've been preferable to have him sign a longer contract at the beginning of this season. However, we were all pleased with the bridge contract at the time, since it seemed to be the best thing to do, at the time. You can't blame Bergevin.
It's not hidsight it's specualtion.

If MB signs Subban to an 8 year 48 mil contract, do you think he comes in with a much different attidude? Do you think he comes in with an open mind to learning/progressing?

Part of the huge step forward this season was playing much more of a simple team minded game. I doubt he does that with a massive contract.

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05-10-2013, 03:00 PM
  #143
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In hindsight, it obviously would've been preferable to have him sign a longer contract at the beginning of this season. However, we were all pleased with the bridge contract at the time, since it seemed to be the best thing to do, at the time. You can't blame Bergevin.
No we were not. And no it didn't seem to be the best thing to do at the time. And yes Bergevin can be blamed.

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05-10-2013, 03:01 PM
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It's not hidsight it's specualtion.

If MB signs Subban to an 8 year 48 mil contract, do you think he comes in with a much different attidude? Do you think he comes in with an open mind to learning/progressing?

Part of the huge step forward this season was playing much more of a simple team minded game. I doubt he does that with a massive contract.
No this is massive speculation.

PK grew internally, it happens to athletes once they get more maturity. It's his 3rd season and he knew what he had to do to be better.

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05-10-2013, 03:03 PM
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If MB signs Subban to an 8 year 48 mil contract, do you think he comes in with a much different attidude? Do you think he comes in with an open mind to learning/progressing?
Yes why wouldn't he? Because all he cares about is money? Yes I'm sure that's the education his parents gave him.

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05-10-2013, 03:09 PM
  #146
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No this is massive speculation.

PK grew internally, it happens to athletes once they get more maturity. It's his 3rd season and he knew what he had to do to be better.
Truth.

Thing is PK has improved an aspect of his game every year since we drafted him. He improved again, and people will claim that this time it's different, it's the contract negotiations ? Far fetched IMO.

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05-10-2013, 03:26 PM
  #147
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It's not hidsight it's specualtion.

If MB signs Subban to an 8 year 48 mil contract, do you think he comes in with a much different attidude? Do you think he comes in with an open mind to learning/progressing?

Part of the huge step forward this season was playing much more of a simple team minded game. I doubt he does that with a massive contract.
And now the price-tag has gone up. First of all, the price tag you gave was probably sky-high compared to what Subban was requesting. Second of all, the pricetag now will realistically be in the ball park of 8 years, 56 million. But a year later you think the money's not going to go to his head? Why?

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05-10-2013, 03:36 PM
  #148
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So the important thing was to make cap room for when we aren't contenders and don't need cap room - this year and next year ? Seems a bit silly to me.



So we're in cap heaven next season and that's awesome - as per your post above - but it won't matter later just because ?

You have convinced me. I'm sold.
Team growth isn't done overnight. All important pieces can't be added in only one summer. If you believe that in 2 years, we'll be ready to turn the switch on and enter "contender mode" by doing all our moves within one month, you're up for a big surprise. If we can't eliminate our deficiencies by that time, we won't be any further in two years than we are now.

Plus, going crazy because of 2M when the salary cap will probably go back up to 70M, all that while having two vets in Markov AND Gionta freeing up an additional 10.75M in cap space, with Subban, and Eller as pretty much the only important players to re-sign...

Yeah...

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05-10-2013, 04:14 PM
  #149
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And now the price-tag has gone up. First of all, the price tag you gave was probably sky-high compared to what Subban was requesting. Second of all, the pricetag now will realistically be in the ball park of 8 years, 56 million. But a year later you think the money's not going to go to his head? Why?
Let me play devil's advocate.

Bergevin has reports telling him Subban is taking too much space in the locker room for how old and experienced he is. So they think if they give him the big deal, he'll be un-coachable because they think Martin and co let him run around and do whatever he wanted (triple low fives, etc). So they say : We'll show him who's the boss, it's not him, it's us. Only way to do that is to make him come to camp with a bridge deal because if they give him a big deal, he will have the big head and think he's untouchable. We can give him his big deal after we have shown him something else than the Gauthier/Martin circus.

Not saying I believe that.. but again playing devil's advocate just to see what others think.

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05-10-2013, 04:19 PM
  #150
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Team growth isn't done overnight. All important pieces can't be added in only one summer. If you believe that in 2 years, we'll be ready to turn the switch on and enter "contender mode" by doing all our moves within one month, you're up for a big surprise. If we can't eliminate our deficiencies by that time, we won't be any further in two years than we are now.
What I meant was that we weren't going to be contender this season, nor the next. We have a shot at becoming a contender beyond that. Maybe. So it makes no sense to save cap room in the short term at the cost of saving long term cap space. That was the gist of the point I was making.


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Plus, going crazy because of 2M when the salary cap will probably go back up to 70M, all that while having two vets in Markov AND Gionta freeing up an additional 10.75M in cap space, with Subban, and Eller as pretty much the only important players to re-sign...

Yeah...
Who is going crazy ?

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