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The Rumours and Speculation Thread #4

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Old
05-11-2013, 01:56 PM
  #626
Flyotes
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Is Edler truly good enough defensively to mend the hole made by trading Couturier? I wager he isn't. Edler is just another one of those players we already have enough of...a top 4 guy who isn't a true number 1. We already have plenty of those. We don't need to trade people to get another. We don't need to gut the forward group's defensive play to do it, either.
This. By a mile.

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05-11-2013, 02:11 PM
  #627
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Toss me into the "no way should we move Couturier in any deal involving Edler" group.

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05-11-2013, 02:13 PM
  #628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Is Edler truly good enough defensively to mend the hole made by trading Couturier? I wager he isn't. Edler is just another one of those players we already have enough of...a top 4 guy who isn't a true number 1. We already have plenty of those. We don't need to trade people to get another. We don't need to gut the forward group's defensive play to do it, either.

Well we need a puck-moving dman that can play top pairing minutes, so I don't know how you expect to get one.

THE FLYERS ARE NOT GETTING A NO. 1 DMAN. NOBODY IS GOING TO TRADE ONE AT A REASONABLE PRICE.

Time to move on from that dream. What they need to do is stock up on no. 2s and 3s that are all defensively responsible and reliable.

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05-11-2013, 02:23 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by TheLegendkiller View Post
Well we need a puck-moving dman that can play top pairing minutes, so I don't know how you expect to get one.

THE FLYERS ARE NOT GETTING A NO. 1 DMAN. NOBODY IS GOING TO TRADE ONE AT A REASONABLE PRICE.

Time to move on from that dream. What they need to do is stock up on no. 2s and 3s that are all defensively responsible and reliable.
We have Timonen right now.

We have Gustafsson right now.

Neither are #1 defense but...

You go hard after Streit in the offseason.

You continue to develop Gostisbehere.

And you draft a defenseman high in this draft and next year.



Also, I'm not saying that Gus is going to be a #1 defenseman, but I really think his ability to carry minutes is going to be solid through his prime. Some people around here underestimate him substantially. He's not Timonen, but I have him penciled into our top 4 starting next year.


If you see the Flyers follow the model I just demonstrated, they will have no problems with their defense for years to come.

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05-11-2013, 02:25 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Just look at 2003, because that's the only comparable draft for depth.

By the time the Flyers' turn comes, there will be 4 or 5 D available who are going to be better than Edler.

If you accept the top 5 are, in whatever order: Jones, Drouin, Mackinnon, Barkov and Nichushkin

Then the next group is: Nurse, Lindholm, Monahan, Ristolainen, Horvat, Shinkaruk, Zadorov and even Fucale. That's 8, although I don't think the goalie will go that high.

We're going to get our pick of a couple guys from this group, or our pick of the rest: Hennessey, Pulock, Morin, Wennberg, Domi, Hagg, Mueller etc. and I'm quite sure that picking the right guy will yield a better player than Edler. This is the deepest draft in 10 years.
Here are the defensemen drafted in the top 11 since 1993:

1993: Pronger (2), Kenny Jonsson (11)
1994: Jovanovski (1), Tverdovsky (2)
1995: Berard (1), Redden (2), Berg (3), McLaren (9)
1996: Phillips (1), Zyuzin (2), Richard Jackman (5), Aitken (8), Lance Ward (9), Derrick Morris (11)
1997: Brewer (5), Paul Mara (7), Boynton (9), Brad Ference (10)
1998: Brad Stuart (3), Allen (4), Vishnevsky (5)
1999: Mezei (10)
2000: Klesla (4), Lars Jonsson (7)
2001: Komisarek (7)
2002: Bouwmeester (3), Pitkanen (4), Ryan Whitney (5), Ballard (11)
2003: Suter (7), Coburn (8), Phaneuf (9)
2004: Barker (3), Smid (9), Valabik (10)
2005: Jack Johnson (3), Brian Lee (9), Bourdon (10)
2006: Erik Johnson (1)
2007: Hickey (4), Alzner (5), Ellerby (10)
2008: Doughty (2), Bogosian (3), Pietrangelo (4), Luke Schenn (5)
2009: Hedman (2), Ekman-Larsson (6), Jared Cowen (9), Ellis (11)
2010: Gudbranson (3), McIlrath (10)
2011: Larsson (4), Hamilton (9), Brodin (10), Siemens (11)
2012: Murray (2)

How many franchise defensemen over 20 years have been picked in the top eleven, let alone the 9th, 10th or 11th picks specifically?

Believing you're going to get a franchise defenseman with the 11th overall pick is pure fantasy. It's a crap shoot, like every other player outside the first 3 or four picks... every draft.

For reference, Edler was drafted in 2004 in the 3rd round.

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05-11-2013, 02:31 PM
  #631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Is Edler truly good enough defensively to mend the hole made by trading Couturier? I wager he isn't. Edler is just another one of those players we already have enough of...a top 4 guy who isn't a true number 1. We already have plenty of those. We don't need to trade people to get another. We don't need to gut the forward group's defensive play to do it, either.
yup I agree. Edler is a good defenseman but as you said we have enough of what he brings already. i think Couturier could get traded this summer. But it should not be for a guy like Edler.
I would think about a "change of scenery" deal involving around Coburn for Edler but I am not sure Vancouver would.

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05-11-2013, 02:42 PM
  #632
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I'm baffled some fans are willing to trade away Couts for Edler or Goligoski. Couts is one of our best defensive forwards, if not the best. On a team that's sorely lacking solid defensive play from our forwards, I would not trade away Couts, especially since he's young and not in his prime yet. I know we need a young, stud d-man badly. But I'd rather keep Couts and draft at the 11th spot.

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05-11-2013, 02:46 PM
  #633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
yup I agree. Edler is a good defenseman but as you said we have enough of what he brings already. i think Couturier could get traded this summer. But it should not be for a guy like Edler.
I would think about a "change of scenery" deal involving around Coburn for Edler but I am not sure Vancouver would.
Just curious, if the Flyers wouldn't let go of Couterier for Weber, what defenseman would Homer trade him for that as good as Weber, or better? It just seems odd to me that Homer was adamant about not trading Couts last summer, but he'd change his mind now after a shortened season with no training camp.

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05-11-2013, 02:54 PM
  #634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
We have Timonen right now.

We have Gustafsson right now.

Neither are #1 defense but...

You go hard after Streit in the offseason.

You continue to develop Gostisbehere.

And you draft a defenseman high in this draft and next year.



Also, I'm not saying that Gus is going to be a #1 defenseman, but I really think his ability to carry minutes is going to be solid through his prime. Some people around here underestimate him substantially. He's not Timonen, but I have him penciled into our top 4 starting next year.


If you see the Flyers follow the model I just demonstrated, they will have no problems with their defense for years to come.

Streit - Schenn
Timonen - Coburn
Grossmann - Gustaffson


I mean that's ok but once you take out Timonen is get's a little hairy. I'm just saying that if you get somebody like Edler, you have an established puck-mover that you know can play top minutes. Streit might not even be a guarantee to sign.

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05-11-2013, 03:01 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by flyersgal View Post
Just curious, if the Flyers wouldn't let go of Couterier for Weber, what defenseman would Homer trade him for that as good as Weber, or better? It just seems odd to me that Homer was adamant about not trading Couts last summer, but he'd change his mind now after a shortened season with no training camp.
This was never confirmed.
The rumour actually wasn't Couturier + (a combination of Meszaros, Read, Voracek and draft picks) but Couturier and Brayden Schenn +.
Shea Weber to me has around the same value as Pronger did when he was traded: 2 first round draft picks, a top6 forward and a top4 defender. Trading B.Schenn, Couturier plus Read, Meszaros or Voracek would have gutted this team for the future.

Also I'd rather have Yandle than Edler.

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05-11-2013, 03:02 PM
  #636
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Just to note, in case it looks like I'm advocating a trade centring around Edler and Couturier, I'm not...

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05-11-2013, 04:30 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
This was never confirmed.
The rumour actually wasn't Couturier + (a combination of Meszaros, Read, Voracek and draft picks) but Couturier and Brayden Schenn +.
Shea Weber to me has around the same value as Pronger did when he was traded: 2 first round draft picks, a top6 forward and a top4 defender. Trading B.Schenn, Couturier plus Read, Meszaros or Voracek would have gutted this team for the future.

Also I'd rather have Yandle than Edler.
Ahh, I see. I thought the rumor was Schenn or Couterier+, not both+. What do you think it would take on PHI's end to get Yandle? What about Shattenkirk?

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05-11-2013, 05:25 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by flyersgal View Post
Ahh, I see. I thought the rumor was Schenn or Couterier+, not both+. What do you think it would take on PHI's end to get Yandle? What about Shattenkirk?
Phoenix needs scoring, and possibly a goaltender.
Since they probably won't take back Bryz I could see them being interested in Read, Couturier and maybe Briere (they'd obviously be interested in Voracek, G, Simmonds, B.Schenn etc. too, but I believe these guys are untouchable).

Briere + 2013 first rounder + 2013 third rounder for Yandle
Read + 2013 first rounder for Yandle + 2013 second rounder
Couturier + 2013 second rounder for Yandle + rights to Boys Gordon

Probably a little low, if other teams get into a bidding war I could see Yandle returning three major pieces, as in first rounders and roster players.

The Blues really don't seem to have a lot of holes in their lineup.
Couturier certainly would make sense as their centers are kind of average, but he wouldn't be an immediate improvement.

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05-11-2013, 06:01 PM
  #639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
Phoenix needs scoring, and possibly a goaltender.
Since they probably won't take back Bryz I could see them being interested in Read, Couturier and maybe Briere (they'd obviously be interested in Voracek, G, Simmonds, B.Schenn etc. too, but I believe these guys are untouchable).

Briere + 2013 first rounder + 2013 third rounder for Yandle
Read + 2013 first rounder for Yandle + 2013 second rounder
Couturier + 2013 second rounder for Yandle + rights to Boys Gordon

Probably a little low, if other teams get into a bidding war I could see Yandle returning three major pieces, as in first rounders and roster players.

The Blues really don't seem to have a lot of holes in their lineup.
Couturier certainly would make sense as their centers are kind of average, but he wouldn't be an immediate improvement.
THe Coyotes are not trading Yandle for those packages. If you remember back at last year's draft, it was rumored they were asking for 3 big pieces+ for Yandle. Clearly, they value Yandle like he is Weber which he is not. The price to acquire Yandle would not be worth the cost.

The one piece I believe the Blues are missing is an elite scorer. I think BBS hit the nail on the head on why they lost to the Kings this year.

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05-11-2013, 06:15 PM
  #640
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Originally Posted by FlyingPhilly View Post
THe Coyotes are not trading Yandle for those packages. If you remember back at last year's draft, it was rumored they were asking for 3 big pieces+ for Yandle. Clearly, they value Yandle like he is Weber which he is not. The price to acquire Yandle would not be worth the cost.

The one piece I believe the Blues are missing is an elite scorer. I think BBS hit the nail on the head on why they lost to the Kings this year.
I would imagine their price for Yandle will come down with the emergence of OEL and possibly shedding some payroll for the new ownership.

Couturier, 1st rounder (2013 or 2014), and a prospect should get it done. Personally I wouldn't do that but that's about what it would cost.


Last edited by LegionOfDoom91: 05-11-2013 at 06:33 PM.
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05-11-2013, 06:21 PM
  #641
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Flyers should be better next year. I find it unlikely that injuries could be as tragic.

It was a shortened season. Couts and Schenn will probably have better years-- so will the D-- and I expect the goaltending to be marginally better. Raising the standard all around will push this team reasonably high above .500 mark and into the playoffs.

Lines were juggled like nuts. Besides the Penguins, a lot of teams have fallen off and are frauds (re: Montreal/Toronto). Climate should be better next year.

/excuses

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05-11-2013, 07:05 PM
  #642
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Is Edler truly good enough defensively to mend the hole made by trading Couturier? I wager he isn't. Edler is just another one of those players we already have enough of...a top 4 guy who isn't a true number 1. We already have plenty of those. We don't need to trade people to get another. We don't need to gut the forward group's defensive play to do it, either.
you also have to consider asset allocation. How much are you going to pay Coots to be a third line center? Will he reach his potential as a 3rd line center.

I am not saying make a Sharp type trade but if you fill a position of need on d and fill in for coots with a smaller drop off in Laughton then it only makes sense.

I like Edler and Yandle but I would like to get a better 2 way dman for Coots even of it means not getting as much of an offensive dman.

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05-11-2013, 07:07 PM
  #643
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
I would imagine their price for Yandle will come down with the emergence of OEL and possibly shedding some payroll for the new ownership.

Couturier, 1st rounder (2013 or 2014), and a prospect should get it done. Personally I wouldn't do that but that's about what it would cost.
I am not giving up Coots and this year's #1 for Yandle.

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05-11-2013, 07:52 PM
  #644
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Call it overconfidence or arrogance...but I'm fairly confident going into next year with this or something similar to this lineup:

Gagne/Akeson - Giroux - Voracek
Simmonds - Couturier - Schenn
Hartnell - Laughton - Read
Rinaldo - Holmstrom/Hall - Talbot

Timonen - Schenn
Gustafsson/Streit - Coburn
Gustafsson/PMD - Grossmann

Mason/Bryzgalov
Mason/Bryzgalov

We may not be Stanley Cup Champions, but I think that gives us a legitimate chance to compete with the East. Can that be a top 2 team in NHL? Maybe not, but definitely a top 4-8. As long as Couturier, Gustafsson and both Schenns continue to make strides, we will be a direct competitor. All you can ask for is a shot. People act like we should be Cup Contenders every year, but that's unrealistic. There are only ever 6-8 teams with a legit shot. We can definitely be one of those teams with our roster.

Believing that we won't make changes is definitely a mistake though. Something will happen this offseason. We're the Flyers, so it always does. However, if no changes are made, I'm confident we can hang with the best.

In all honesty, I'd trade the 11th and 41st or Cousins for Gardiner...

Gagne - Giroux - Voracek
Simmonds - Couturier - Schenn
Hartnell - Laughton - Read
Rinaldo - Hall - Talbot

Timonen - Schenn
Gardiner - Coburn
Gustafsson - Grossmann

Mason
Bryzgalov

I like that team.

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05-11-2013, 08:02 PM
  #645
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In all honesty, I'd trade the 11th and 41st or Cousins for Gardiner...
I don't want any part of trading our 1st this year or Couts for Gardiner. The Leafs can keep him.

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05-11-2013, 08:04 PM
  #646
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Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr
Simmonds-Schenn-Voracek
Gagne-Couturier-Read
Rinaldo-Laughton-Talbot

Streit-Schenn
Timonen-Coburn
Gustafsson-Grossman

Mason
Backup

What do you think the chances of this team being good would be?

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05-11-2013, 08:21 PM
  #647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JABEE View Post
Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr
Simmonds-Schenn-Voracek
Gagne-Couturier-Read
Rinaldo-Laughton-Talbot

Streit-Schenn
Timonen-Coburn
Gustafsson-Grossman

Mason
Backup

What do you think the chances of this team being good would be?
Voracek is going to play with Giroux.

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05-11-2013, 08:22 PM
  #648
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I doubt Jagr is coming back

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05-11-2013, 08:26 PM
  #649
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I am sick and tired of knee jerk roster turnarounds.

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05-11-2013, 08:59 PM
  #650
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Why would anyone in their right mind split up G and V?

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