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05-11-2013, 02:01 PM
  #251
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And biased.
It annoys me because a lot is from left field and focuses on only the negatives that are gaping with players instead of weighing out sides.

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05-11-2013, 02:06 PM
  #252
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He only scores more goals than that because of his ice time. He is a good PKer, but he wouldn't be top unit PP on teams with competent powerplay.
That's all conjecture. If the coaching staff draw up a PP, and he happens to score 1/4 of all the goals in said PP, then he's going to get ice time in said PP. Maybe he doesn't play on the first unit on a team with a competent PP, or maybe he scores more with a better PP system around him. He does have decent hands around the net. But you really can't guess at this stuff and assume what a guy may or may not do on another roster. He could score a lot more or a lot less, but all we can do is blindly guess at that.

I don't see the point in this baseless conjecture though. I understand the team is playing like crap in their away games and is down in the series. And he is the captain. There are valid complaints that can be levied at that and the team in general for their playoff performance. But calling him a 3rd liner or wildly guessing what he may or may not do on another team, what's the point of that?

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05-11-2013, 02:06 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Guess What View Post
Kershaw where do you come up with some of this banter? A lot of it seems very baseless and overdrawn, and exaggerated.
I'd like to know as to why. I don't see much exaggerated comments from my behalf, but rather telling it how I see it.

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05-11-2013, 02:18 PM
  #254
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That's all conjecture. If the coaching staff draw up a PP, and he happens to score 1/4 of all the goals in said PP, then he's going to get ice time in said PP. Maybe he doesn't play on the first unit on a team with a competent PP, or maybe he scores more with a better PP system around him. He does have decent hands around the net. But you really can't guess at this stuff and assume what a guy may or may not do on another roster. He could score a lot more or a lot less, but all we can do is blindly guess at that.

I don't see the point in this baseless conjecture though. I understand the team is playing like crap in their away games and is down in the series. And he is the captain. There are valid complaints that can be levied at that and the team in general for their playoff performance. But calling him a 3rd liner or wildly guessing what he may or may not do on another team, what's the point of that?
I call it Horcoffitis.

An average offensive player getting prime time PP minutes on bad PP units and producing points.

Oilers current captain Shawn Horcoff in 2006-07, 2007-08, 2008-09 averaged around 4 minutes per game on the Powerplay. He, like Callahan, played extensive minutes on the PP/PK. Both are carried by superior offensive linemates at ES (Hemsky, Stepan).

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05-11-2013, 02:18 PM
  #255
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I'd like to know as to why. I don't see much exaggerated comments from my behalf, but rather telling it how I see it.
Everything you say bashes this team or says how all our players suck and no one's good. I don't know anyone who proclaims Callahan to be a 1st liner or some supremely elite player. He is a good leader. You grasp at straws constantly to make sure you're right all the time.

Also, you really put that much faith into a 19 year old eh? Very young player. Guarantee he isn't consistent yet and has a lot to learn. So you can throw that out the window.

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05-11-2013, 02:44 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
I call it Horcoffitis.

An average offensive player getting prime time PP minutes on bad PP units and producing points.

Oilers current captain Shawn Horcoff in 2006-07, 2007-08, 2008-09 averaged around 4 minutes per game on the Powerplay. He, like Callahan, played extensive minutes on the PP/PK. Both are carried by superior offensive linemates at ES (Hemsky, Stepan).
The last 3 seasons combined, Callahan is in the top 20 percent in the league in scoring. Not sure where you get this stuff from, but offensively in the top 1/5 does not equal average.

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05-11-2013, 03:08 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Guess What View Post
Everything you say bashes this team or says how all our players suck and no one's good. I don't know anyone who proclaims Callahan to be a 1st liner or some supremely elite player. He is a good leader. You grasp at straws constantly to make sure you're right all the time.

Also, you really put that much faith into a 19 year old eh? Very young player. Guarantee he isn't consistent yet and has a lot to learn. So you can throw that out the window.
Huh? Throughout my time on this website, it has been constantly claimed by Rangers fans that Ryan Callahan is a 1st line player. Hell, I've seen people say he's a better player than Marian Gaborik, a multiple 40g scorer.

I don't put much faith in Jaskin to produce right now, but he would help with the youth movement.

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05-11-2013, 03:11 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Cake or Death View Post
The last 3 seasons combined, Callahan is in the top 20 percent in the league in scoring. Not sure where you get this stuff from, but offensively in the top 1/5 does not equal average.
In the 3 yr span I got from Horcoff, his PPG was also top 20 percent.

Both are average offensive players who got spoonfed favorable minutes.

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05-11-2013, 03:13 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Huh? Throughout my time on this website, it has been constantly claimed by Rangers fans that Ryan Callahan is a 1st line player. Hell, I've seen people say he's a better player than Marian Gaborik, a multiple 40g scorer.

I don't put much faith in Jaskin to produce right now, but he would help with the youth movement.
I can see exactly what you're getting at but I've seen that much more from the unwashed masses of casual fans, which every team has. Can't generalize our own fanbase now.

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05-11-2013, 03:18 PM
  #260
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I can see exactly what you're getting at but I've seen that much more from the unwashed masses of casual fans, which every team has. Can't generalize our own fanbase now.
Meh, it's not really generalization. A lot of Rangers fans think Callahan is a 1st line player and point to his '30 goal season' and 'overall game' as to reference that point. The point is moot either way, because Ryan Callahan is a first line player on this team, so I guess they are right. This speaks volumes about the team itself.

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05-11-2013, 03:27 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Meh, it's not really generalization. A lot of Rangers fans think Callahan is a 1st line player and point to his '30 goal season' and 'overall game' as to reference that point. The point is moot either way, because Ryan Callahan is a first line player on this team, so I guess they are right. This speaks volumes about the team itself.
No he isn't He is is inserted there on the lineup card that don't mean he's a 1st liner. You don't differentiate and you generalize our own fanbase too much. He brings it to the table and more often than not plays well, usually. Yeah he;s sucked this series but you can't just throw everything else out. You can't even support your claims here. "A lot" "Most" "lots" this is your own claims and have nothing to back it up by unless you look for huge Cally homers or very casual fans.

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05-11-2013, 03:50 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
In the 3 yr span I got from Horcoff, his PPG was also top 20 percent.

Both are average offensive players who got spoonfed favorable minutes.
Dude, wtf are you talking about?! Over the past 3 seasons combined, Callahan is 133 pts in 181 games for .73 PPG (72nd in the league) and Horcoff is 73 pts in 159 games for .46 PPG (266th in the league). These numbers are not in the same stratosphere. Wanna see who they rank near to make it more clear:

Jaromir Jagr 0.75
Nugent-Hopkins 0.75
Bobby Ryan 0.75
Danny Briere 0.73
Ryan Callahan 0.73
Jeff Carter 0.73
Tomas Fleischmann 0.73

Niclas Bergfors 0.46
Andrew Brunette 0.46
Shawn Horcoff 0.46
Guillaume Latendresse 0.46
Mark Letestu 0.46
Linus Omark 0.46
Jason Arnott 0.45

Cally and Horcoff are in totally different leagues offensively! Dude, you're arguing in retarded useless circles, with wrong data no less. If you want to insist a guy who over a three season span finishes top 20 percent in league wide scoring is average, knock yourself out. You want to call him a third liner, when he scores more goals than the average third liner scores points, have a blast. I can no longer engage in this, however. Cheers

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05-11-2013, 03:56 PM
  #263
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Would you be able to remove powerplay points from them for the last 3 years and see how it looks?

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05-11-2013, 03:59 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Guess What View Post
No he isn't He is is inserted there on the lineup card that don't mean he's a 1st liner. You don't differentiate and you generalize our own fanbase too much. He brings it to the table and more often than not plays well, usually. Yeah he;s sucked this series but you can't just throw everything else out. You can't even support your claims here. "A lot" "Most" "lots" this is your own claims and have nothing to back it up by unless you look for huge Cally homers or very casual fans.
Problem is, 90% of the fanbase are huge Cally homers.

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05-11-2013, 04:01 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Cake or Death View Post
Dude, wtf are you talking about?! Over the past 3 seasons combined, Callahan is 133 pts in 181 games for .73 PPG (72nd in the league) and Horcoff is 73 pts in 159 games for .46 PPG (266th in the league). These numbers are not in the same stratosphere. Wanna see who they rank near to make it more clear:

Jaromir Jagr 0.75
Nugent-Hopkins 0.75
Bobby Ryan 0.75
Danny Briere 0.73
Ryan Callahan 0.73
Jeff Carter 0.73
Tomas Fleischmann 0.73

Niclas Bergfors 0.46
Andrew Brunette 0.46
Shawn Horcoff 0.46
Guillaume Latendresse 0.46
Mark Letestu 0.46
Linus Omark 0.46
Jason Arnott 0.45

Cally and Horcoff are in totally different leagues offensively! Dude, you're arguing in retarded useless circles, with wrong data no less. If you want to insist a guy who over a three season span finishes top 20 percent in league wide scoring is average, knock yourself out. You want to call him a third liner, when he scores more goals than the average third liner scores points, have a blast. I can no longer engage in this, however. Cheers
I was referring to Horcoff from 2007-06 to 2008-09.

Horcoff during that 3yr span: 154 pts in 213 GP. 0.72 PPG.

Horcoff and Callahan were similar players. Horcoff's body is done and Callahan's play took a big hit too. This is why I want him nowhere near this team in the long haul, because he is made from the same material that Horcoff and Drury are made from.

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05-11-2013, 04:04 PM
  #266
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Would you be able to remove powerplay points from them for the last 3 years and see how it looks?
Not sure why... to me a goal is a goal is a goal. If you wanna try and figure that out in hockey-reference knock yourself out. I'm gonna have pizza and hang with my girl. Cheers

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05-11-2013, 04:12 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Problem is, 90% of the fanbase are huge Cally homers.
i dont know who you've been talking to but i have rarely seen cally called a first liner. actually the first time i saw was just now when you claimed most of the fanbase thinks hes a first liner.

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05-11-2013, 04:16 PM
  #268
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That's Kershaw for you bro
God forbid someone questions the NYRHF consensus every once in a while. I don't really agree with his conclusions regarding Callahan, but he does back them up with legitimate arguments.

Isn't debate what is supposed to be fun around here? When did people start finding circle-jerking more enjoyable?

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05-11-2013, 04:17 PM
  #269
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i dont know who you've been talking to but i have rarely seen cally called a first liner. actually the first time i saw was just now when you claimed most of the fanbase thinks hes a first liner.
Well directly, probably not. But there have been many who said he is better than Gaborik, who is actually a star first line players so......

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05-11-2013, 04:20 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
God forbid someone questions the NYRHF consensus every once in a while. I don't really agree with his conclusions regarding Callahan, but he does back them up with legitimate arguments.

Isn't debate what is supposed to be fun around here? When did people start finding circle-jerking more enjoyable?
I know how you feel now Kel. I don't agree with you and the defending of Torts, but I have come to respect a different view from general consensus. But I am coming to agree with you more and more lately. The players Torts has aren't that good.

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05-11-2013, 05:17 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Problem is, 90% of the fanbase are huge Cally homers.
There's a difference between being a fan and homer. Idk who you talk to that thinks he is legit 1st line material. While you can make the argument, your evidence is extremely flimsy and unsustainable.

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05-11-2013, 05:18 PM
  #272
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Callahan is a very overrated player. He is not a very damn good player, he is a player who only produces because he gets spoonfed with minutes with skilled players that he eventually has to produce. He is a very bad captain and fails to produce in the playoffs. I don't see him as much flak as Stepan, a sophomore got last year. He's had less playoff points than Girardi the past 2 playoffs, yet everyone is basically fine with him moving. He is a player who takes no accountability for his team and his own piss poor play and I don't want him around the younger players on the team. Why is Ryan Callahan an untouchable on this team exactly?

Jaskin is a very big, skilled LWer who had the highest PPG in the CHL. He is only 19 years old and got cup of coffee with the Blues early this season. He was so good, they didn't both sending him straight to the AHL, but rather right away with the NHL club. He is a very realistic target the Rangers should be after and Callahan is a good fit for the Blues.

As for Staal, I think we could get the 6th overall pick this year, although with his recent injury history, I doubt he holds much value at this point.
It doesn't matter if he's overrated by the fans what matters is if he is good enough I said he is a damn good player not a very good damn player because he is not a very good player but he is good and a good leader and a cog that can help this team win. As I said if you get something for him great so I'm obviously not saying he is untouchable. I am disappointed with him this year I'll admit to that for sure. But not so disappointed that I actively think he needs to be traded.

That said sometimes you have to predict when a player is going to fall off if you want your organization to be more than a joke (aka more than the rangers) If you think he is primed to fall off a cliff and we are in a prime spot to trade him than I understand that b/c it happens to every player ever.

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05-11-2013, 05:27 PM
  #273
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There's a difference between being a fan and homer. Idk who you talk to that thinks he is legit 1st line material. While you can make the argument, your evidence is extremely flimsy and unsustainable.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1388609&page=4

Evidence in that thread suggests that some do prefer Callahan over Gaborik it seems. But a lot of flimsy evidence as you said since variables such as contract aren't taken into account.

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05-11-2013, 05:30 PM
  #274
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It doesn't matter if he's overrated by the fans what matters is if he is good enough I said he is a damn good player not a very good damn player because he is not a very good player but he is good and a good leader and a cog that can help this team win. As I said if you get something for him great so I'm obviously not saying he is untouchable. I am disappointed with him this year I'll admit to that for sure. But not so disappointed that I actively think he needs to be traded.

That said sometimes you have to predict when a player is going to fall off if you want your organization to be more than a joke (aka more than the rangers) If you think he is primed to fall off a cliff and we are in a prime spot to trade him than I understand that b/c it happens to every player ever.
Ryan Callahan brings average 2nd line production despite being spoonfed PP times and favorable offensive zone starts with superior offensive linemates he leeches off of. He isn't the same player he was in 2011. He has a long injury history and has been wildly inconsistent this year. I prefer not investing the 5mil per he'll ask for in FA next season for 5-6 years. Trade him while he has value.

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05-11-2013, 05:38 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Ryan Callahan brings average 2nd line production despite being spoonfed PP times and favorable offensive zone starts with superior offensive linemates he leeches off of. He isn't the same player he was in 2011. He has a long injury history and has been wildly inconsistent this year. I prefer not investing the 5mil per he'll ask for in FA next season for 5-6 years. Trade him while he has value.
Heyread the post you quoted I have no argument with you here. I don't think his value has dropped that much BUT I can easily see him falling completely offa cliff next year. The hustle and plays he's made his entire career were few and far between this year which is very alarming. Still I think he has another year or two of the hockey we've known him for and he's the type of player who won't cost you more than 3 or 4 mil on his next contract and I'd like to see a career or near career ranger y'know? If we aren't winning championships it'd be nice to have players worth a damn to be proud of. Ah whatever on my death bed I won't be sitting there basking in the fact some guy named Callahan played well for the rangers so screw it trade him lol

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