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Should The Habs Replace MT With Patrick Roy ?

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Old
05-11-2013, 12:20 PM
  #101
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I was as skeptical as anyone when Therrien was hired but I chose to give him a chance as I wasn't part of the interview process and I felt like Bergevin (and Therrien) deserved a chance to prove themselves.

Today, seeing the results, I am forced to admit that they have both done an excellent job, well beyond my own expectations and if anyone claims that they had the Habs finishing 2nd in the Eastern Conference, good on them but I'll have my doubts.

Therrien doesn't stop pucks, he doesn't allow weak goals. Therrien doesn't win or lose faceoffs and mostly, Therrien cannot control injuries and the effect it has on his team. He did what he could with what he had, in a very difficult situation.

He's made some decisions all year which left (some) people puzzled. He won some games with those decisions, and he's lost some. If people had an ounce of honesty, they'd admit that it's the same thing with any coach in the NHL, even with Jack Adams' winners. Speaking of which, Therrien is, in my opinion, a finalist to this award and he has a very good chance of winning it.

I, for one, give full credit to Therrien and I'm so thankful to have him instead of his last two predecessors.

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05-11-2013, 12:56 PM
  #102
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
All the things you just said pretty much sum up the whole situation. They are all facts and they all fit together as clear as day. It shocks me that so many fans can't see that. A lot of people were thrashing all of our players in the GDT, trashing the coach, the system, every choice made since the dawn of time... fans booed, left before the end of the 3rd...

But a lot of fans were psyched when Martin was coaching the most boring and ineffective team on the planet that had no shot at going anywhere or do anything except on a miracle run like the one we went with Halak.

It's all just mind boggling to me.
The reasoning of fans seems to diminish year after year.
The GDT are just embarrassing.

What's really surprising is that we're talking about replacing MT with Patrick freaking Roy. We're not talking about a solid veteran coach here. We're talking a junior coach that is famous for throwing temper tantrums, that has no experience coaching men or at the pro level.
Some can say MT got outcoached in the POs. I think that's just something some fans like to say as if they actually have a clue of what is going on, but the reality is they probably can't even recognize a set play if it was laid out for them before. And this is not even talking about the extent of fatigue or injuries some players may have, we have no info on this. It's just lame..

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Old
05-11-2013, 01:30 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
There is

- Stupid ideas
- Very stupid ideas
- Extremely stupid ideas
..
..
..
- This idea.
10000% agreed. We do not need that characterless traitor anywhere near our Habs. I pray the Nordiques return soon so Roy can go there and we can end any hopes of that piece of garbage coming to Montreal.

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05-11-2013, 01:33 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Did you ever stop to think that maybe Roy was pretty stupid to think he could both coach the Montreal Canadiens, and be 'part' GM of this team, with zero NHL coaching or management experience?

And further, that Roy would invent 'co GM' as a position, and expect Habs to do that?

He's D...U....M....B. You can't see that?

He was a great goalie dude. Leave it at that.

Stay away, far away from Roy.
We actually agree on something!?!? Nice to see.

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05-11-2013, 01:36 PM
  #105
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Have you ever seen one of Roy's teams play?
How physical were the Remparts this year?

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05-11-2013, 01:44 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Travis Moen View Post
In two years, I will bump this thread and all those ridiculing the idea of firing Therrien will feel like complete idiots.

I get why MB hired him. He was the only francophone coach with experience available. Unfortunately, french doesn't win you cups. And experience doesn't make you competent. Especially when experience tells you Therrien was the sole responsible of his teams defeat a few times in the past.
In two years it might actually be a good idea to fire him. Nice that you have a crystal ball for that one.

Right now though it's a completely stupid idea. As for the whole French comment... wtf does that have to do with anything? Guy got us a Division title. Stop looking for things to be upset about.
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Drop words like synthesize and analyze all you want but Therrien got beat, do you want me to write a manifesto about it?

The Habs lost in 5 games to a team carrying 7 rookies and an injured star. They lost the same way they lost their last 8 games - opposing team stressing the D and pressuring in the neutral zone. Notice we didn't get trapped to death? That's because at all times, in all zones, the opposing team was tracking and hassling our D-men.

Therrien didn't adjust his PP to accommodate the pressure on Subban, nor did he adjust our forecheck in the face of this added defensive pressure - I won't comment on the lines as injuries ran amok but Therrien stuck by them even when they were misfiring. Those are not simple adjustments granted, but the playoffs aren't simple and I had repeatedly stressed that our d-scheme is hyper-aggressive and exposes our goaltending and leaves our crappier d-men vulnerable. Well that's what happened.
I actually think we were the better team on many occasion. Our problem was not going to the net. Could MT have done better there? Sure. But when you're given a lineup of guys who don't play that way it's going to be difficult.

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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
That's quite the statement you made there, care to back it up with facts? We got lots of shots, great..terrific! Anderson wasn't letting those in, so what was plan 'B'? The montreal forwards were often out of position, looked lost on a lot of plays. Why did we not have 2 centers out on a majority of the defensive zone faceoffs? When DD lost that critical draw when we were screwed on which side of the ice the faceoff should be, we only had 1 center.
Sure, thanks for asking.

We lost. I have no problem giving credit to Ottawa and good luck to them going forward. But that series could've easily gone the other way.

I didn't see game one but everyone says that we should've won it.
We won game two.
We could've/should've won game four if not for incompetent reffing.

We had tons of players get injured as well.

Look, I'm not saying that the Sens didn't deserve to win. They won, kudos to them. I'm also not saying that we couldn't have done some things differently - esp going to the net - but unfortunately, that's just not the way our team is. We don't have guys like Holmstrom who will sit there and pay the price. MT should've done something about that but it's a roster problem as well.

Price, Pac, Eller... not easy to win without those guys.

Look we lost. MT could've been better just like everyone else but I don't think MT was outcoached. Its a game of inches and we easily could've been up 3-1 in the series after game four.

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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
MT isn't a terrible coach, but watching him complain every game certainly trickles down to the players. Telling the press Gionta was 'crying in his arms' was almost creepy, a thing that a minor league coach wouldn't tell the press.

People are skeptical of MT because of his playoff history, his teams seem to fold when the going gets tough.
I really hate those kinds of arguments... MOST teams, players and coaches will never win cups. Doesn't make it a failing of the coach. And the players who do eventually win are called 'chokers' for most of their careers until they finally win and then everyone praises them for having a great career.

Yzerman is such a perfect example. He was awesome. His teams lost in spite of him but he was labeled a choker. He finally wins in his mid 30s because he finally has a good team with him and all of a sudden he's the best captain ever...

MT hasn't won a cup. So what? He did a great job in Montreal this year (even if I disagreed with a lot of what he did) and should be praised for it. The series was close and could've gone either way. But because we lost we should shoot the coach and say he was outdone by Maclean? Sorry but I don't see it that way at all.

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Old
05-11-2013, 01:50 PM
  #107
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Opting for Patrick Roy is equivalent to selecting a wife based solely on one's glands. It's an arrangement heading for the divorce courts even before the ceremony takes place. If anyone replies to this post, I hope it's based on the cerebral cortex, not, as I'm afraid it will be, some lower center. Good day and good night, wherever you are.

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05-11-2013, 01:56 PM
  #108
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No way. Look at Boucher? How did that work out? If Roy wants to go to Colorado let him go!!!

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05-11-2013, 02:01 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
How physical were the Remparts this year?
I don't believe fights = toughness but this is interesting:
http://www.hockeyfights.com/leaders/teams/6/reg2013

This isn't an exception either, the Remparts are at or near the bottom of the Q in fights for at least the past 5 years.

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05-11-2013, 02:02 PM
  #110
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So this thread is serious?

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05-11-2013, 02:08 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Opting for Patrick Roy is equivalent to selecting a wife based solely on one's glands. It's an arrangement heading for the divorce courts even before the ceremony takes place. If anyone replies to this post, I hope it's based on the cerebral cortex, not, as I'm afraid it will be, some lower center. Good day and good night, wherever you are.

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05-11-2013, 02:09 PM
  #112
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This can only be a joke.

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05-11-2013, 02:15 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by airic000 View Post
Have you ever seen one of Roy's teams play?
Nope. Only going by the anecdotes from people's commentary on this board for some L'Antichambre segment where he talked.

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05-11-2013, 02:34 PM
  #114
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I see Therrien possibly having the same path here as he had with the Pens. He's a good coach to take a last place team and install a solid work ethic and team spirit and make them into a contender. But ultimately, it may take another coach to come in and take that team all the way to the cup.

The way we got beat by the Sens this year is pretty much the same way we beat Therrien's Pens back in 2010. Therrien plays an offensive based system that is very effective in the regular season but not in the playoffs where he gets beat by teams that collapse defensively and allow the shots from the outside and then capitalize on the counter-attack.

Then Therriens says the same thing, we've heard it this year and in 2010 : "We take 45-50 shots a game, we'll win eventually", apparently not seeing that most of these shots are perimeter shot and aren't very dangerous so his team keep doing the same thing.

I still think firing him this summer is a stupid idea though. After a year, a new GM who told all the province that MT was the man of the situation can't fire him after he took a last place team to the division's championship.

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05-11-2013, 02:40 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Some can say MT got outcoached in the POs. I think that's just something some fans like to say as if they actually have a clue of what is going on, but the reality is they probably can't even recognize a set play if it was laid out for them before. And this is not even talking about the extent of fatigue or injuries some players may have, we have no info on this. It's just lame..
Of course, because some of us have a different analysis of coaching in this series we know nothing about hockey. There are tons of excuses and reasons why we lost. I don't think MT's coaching helped. We might have won under different circumstances, but we had to play with the cards we were dealt. And again, I'm not saying he should be fired; he did a really great job this season. But he faltered in the playoffs along with many others. He certainly deserves to be back though.

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05-11-2013, 02:43 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by LastRide View Post
Looks like the Av's are ready to steal him away. They Av's love digging through our organization. Losing MT isn't that big a deal as far as I am concerned. No big loss. Plus I didn't like some of the payers he was sending out on the PP among other things. I also read MT's games speech's are uninspiring. I would love to see Roy behind the bench.
Steal him away?
Steal him from what / who?

Let him prove himself elsewhere
Then after he has a lobotomy; maybe then I'll give him consideration

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05-11-2013, 03:16 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Guilliam View Post
I see Therrien possibly having the same path here as he had with the Pens. He's a good coach to take a last place team and install a solid work ethic and team spirit and make them into a contender. But ultimately, it may take another coach to come in and take that team all the way to the cup.

The way we got beat by the Sens this year is pretty much the same way we beat Therrien's Pens back in 2010. Therrien plays an offensive based system that is very effective in the regular season but not in the playoffs where he gets beat by teams that collapse defensively and allow the shots from the outside and then capitalize on the counter-attack.

Then Therriens says the same thing, we've heard it this year and in 2010 : "We take 45-50 shots a game, we'll win eventually", apparently not seeing that most of these shots are perimeter shot and aren't very dangerous so his team keep doing the same thing.

I still think firing him this summer is a stupid idea though. After a year, a new GM who told all the province that MT was the man of the situation can't fire him after he took a last place team to the division's championship.
It hurts the credibility of your entire argument if you don't get the facts right. We beat Bylsma's penguins. Not Therrien's.

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05-11-2013, 03:28 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
It hurts the credibility of your entire argument if you don't get the facts right. We beat Bylsma's penguins. Not Therrien's.
Ouch! Touché!

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05-11-2013, 03:30 PM
  #119
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There is no real reason to replace Therrien, yet. However, if we were thinking about it, I would look at Ruff way more than I would look at any other available guy out there. Man, I still wish we would have fired Martin in time to give Muller the Habs' job.

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05-11-2013, 04:00 PM
  #120
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I didn't respond to every line, but the hockey-related ones.
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
You are failing to take into account our gazillion injuries. The difference between Eller and Spezza is more than offset by the loss of Gionta, Pacioretty, Prust, Emelin, etc. All of whom missed games and/or played at a severly diminished capacity. The injury to Prust directly accounted for a loss when he grabbed his chest in game 4 and swiped the puck in the slot in desperation.
The injuries were bad, maybe too much for any team to overcome - but we didn't lose because of our forwards getting injured. We lost because of the D - who seem to have all been healthy.

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The team went into a small funk at the end of the season after clinching for many understandable reasons. Then they turned it back on right in time for the playoffs by winning against the jets and the leafs in convincing fashion.
You've clearly never played sports in your life. Aside from the obviously injured Prust, the players gave and give 100% for every game. Stop using ESPN terms like "turning it on" and insanely simplistic notions like that - that's not how real life works. That's actually how people can tell if you're a radio listener, TSN/AC junkie or someone who actually watches the games. Are you seriously suggesting that the players just stopped playing as hard for TWELVE STRAIGHT GAMES? These guys are the fiercest competitors in their sports - that's how they got to the NHL. Give them more credit than your inexperienced, completely ignorant-of-the-situation self has to offer.

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A part of the end of year slump is the fact that Price went zero kelvin degrees cold. Another part is the guys were resting for the playoffs and tried to keep some in the tank. I'd say it was the right way to handle things. I never panicked. It did bother the hell out of me that Price wouldn't step up at that point though. That's the exact time at which we needed him. Maybe it wouldn't have been enough to even win one more game if he had but he didn't so we'll never know.
Everyone can give up and it's okay but Price can't. Your obsession is showing. I thought you just said the guys were saving it for the playoffs? How come Price can't save it for the playoffs?

How dare Price get injured! I mean, we lost because Eller and Gionta and Patches were injured but F Price, that injured loser, he's the reason we lost!

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I noticed the habs pinning the sens in their own zone for large portions of the games forechecking aggressively and preventing the sens offense by generating offense. Getting more shots and chances on net and the sens being largely ineffectual offensively unless they were on the PP or unless the game was out of reach and the team had given up (game 3 and 5 in the 3rd period) with the exception of game 3 where the habs came out flat and the sens came prepared to wage war. It didn't help that in the opening minutes Condra decided to cross check subban in the face and the refs stood idly by while Ottawa was getting away with murder.
Change your glasses. I saw a forecheck that led to nothing as the Sens collapsed smartly in their zone, shots that led to nothing as they were at impossible angles and pinches that led to odd-man-rushes against us constantly. Anderson is no Timmy Thomas, he had maybe 3 important saves a game, tops. Our forwards were beyond ineffective.

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For one, we got so few PPs that I don't know if that was a huge difference in the series. Blah Blah Blah blaming the refs
You're looking at the surface again. There's tactics involved that you're not grasping, it's not SHOOT! SHOOT! SHOOT!!!! like most fans think. We had no one in front of the net, not once until Subban's goal in the last game - and I didn't really observe the PP as much because it's been the same from the mid-way point of the season on but it seemed like they were relying on risky, impossible passes even more than usual.

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If anything, having forwards be hyper aggressive on the forecheck is the best way to go about things when you have dmen who aren't big and aren't particularly good without the puck. You want to make sure to minimize the time the other team will spend in your zone. The best way to do that is put pressure in the O-zone and neutral zone with your forwards and try your best to prevent the puck from getting in our own zone. Not to mention our goalie who went stone cold in march, april and may. ...

There are no basis for your reasoning as far as I'm concerned. I find it to be complete lunacy to say that Therrien should be fire, and it's not much better to say Therrien got out-coached and is on a short leash.
I wasn't complaining about the forecheck, it was fine. The D was the problem. He got outcoached. I'm not saying he should be fired but if he were I wouldn't be shocked. He got outcoached and exposed and his track record with adjustments is ZERO. Ask Pens fans.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I actually think we were the better team on many occasion. Our problem was not going to the net. Could MT have done better there? Sure. But when you're given a lineup of guys who don't play that way it's going to be difficult.
Here's the thing though: we didn't score in the 3rd once. And I'd go on to argue that just by the way the team was playing down the stretch, it was pretty clear that other teams figured out Therrien's "system". Whereas Jacques Martin was all system, Therrien is nigh-no system. The team was a Faberge Egg defensively and it was because of the blue-line play.

You see it many times, and it was best exposed by Karlsson's rushes through the neutral zone: LD takes the RW, RD takes the C/LW and the C is supposed to track back and take the third winger (clearly it gets more complicated when there's dump-and-chase involved: from what I remember we USED to have 1mobile-1stationary in our D and then evolved to a chase-the-living-crap-out-of-the-puck as the season wore on, lack of discipline?). It was plain as day they were marking their wingers and not really playing their zone and that's why the 3rd man in was left unmarked so many god damn times.

This is remedial coaching 099 if you ask me.

You have a point re: lineup of guys. But Carbo achieved just as much with a wildly inferior lineup. Jacques achieved slightly more with an equal or inferior lineup. We have a damn good team, a damn fast team and a hungry team that doesn't quit (save one or two smurfs...) I don't think many can fault the players for their team getting exposed. Yes if Diaz actually played the body once and if Bouillon cleared the *** crease we'd have a much much more stability but we didn't.

No one can say that Gorges and Subban and Markov are bad defensively, it's not like they just plain forgot how to play over 10 months - the problem lies with how exposed they're getting. Same with Price and all the "softies" E=CH says he lets in. Anyone who's played team sports can see that the players are trying but just can't execute properly.

As for the offense, well, the one time they got a body in the vicinity of that overrated Anderson we scored a goal. Our PP stinks and our offense got stifled by the big D-men on the Sens, not to mention how our offense is arranged so that the D has got to pinch and keep the puck in and keep the play alive. It's like risk and on risk on risk - sure it pays off but the Sens put so much pressure on our D at both blue lines, we got shredded over and over... if it weren't that the Sens were less-talented and less-experienced we'd get blown out even faster.

We had the series in our hands if the D played it safer and we crashed the net but...

Anyway I don't like long posts after long posts so sorry everyone, I tried to keep it brief.

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05-11-2013, 04:21 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post


I really hate those kinds of arguments... MOST teams, players and coaches will never win cups. Doesn't make it a failing of the coach. And the players who do eventually win are called 'chokers' for most of their careers until they finally win and then everyone praises them for having a great career.
I'm not expecting a cup, I never was any time soon. However I'm not sure what else to judge a coach on besides he success in the post season, when it really comes down to it? You think Vigneaut is going to survive in Vancouver? I doubt it, because like it or not he hasn't delivered results as of late, and he's only a couple seasons removed from the finals.

So let me ask you this, why is it MT has such an awful playoff record? He makes key mistakes, at key times, and becomes unravelled in the post season. He starts making exsuses, starts blaming the other team, coaches etc... before looking in the mirror.

MT has only led a team past the first round once, I'm not breaking any news here. The Penguins would rather take a chance on a young, inexperienced coach in Bylsma than figure it out with MT. Red flag? I think so.

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Yzerman is such a perfect example. He was awesome. His teams lost in spite of him but he was labeled a choker. He finally wins in his mid 30s because he finally has a good team with him and all of a sudden he's the best captain ever...
I disagree, this just isn't true. Yzerman's teams were always missing a couple key components before the dominant years they had. Their goaltending was always iffy, and their defense was putrid plus they were small and injury prone. Sound familiar? Funny how things changed when they brought in Kocer and the boys to keep the other teams honest....

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MT hasn't won a cup. So what? He did a great job in Montreal this year (even if I disagreed with a lot of what he did) and should be praised for it. The series was close and could've gone either way. But because we lost we should shoot the coach and say he was outdone by Maclean? Sorry but I don't see it that way at all.
I really don't care if he won a cup, I'm telling you the truth. I care about details and leadership behind the bench, something I feel MT lost somewhere with 3 weeks left in the season. This team that played the Sens, is the same one that was in a downward spiral the last month. I firmly believe they would have been fighting for 8th had this been an 82 game schedule, they were playing that badly.

Its not all the coaches fault, I'm not suggesting it is. However do you honestly believe we would have walked into the playoffs in a 82 game schedule? If you do, congrats you have a lot of faith in MT, I won't knock you for it any more. I really don't know if we would have made it.

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05-11-2013, 04:50 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The reasoning of fans seems to diminish year after year.
The GDT are just embarrassing.

What's really surprising is that we're talking about replacing MT with Patrick freaking Roy. We're not talking about a solid veteran coach here. We're talking a junior coach that is famous for throwing temper tantrums, that has no experience coaching men or at the pro level.
Some can say MT got outcoached in the POs. I think that's just something some fans like to say as if they actually have a clue of what is going on, but the reality is they probably can't even recognize a set play if it was laid out for them before. And this is not even talking about the extent of fatigue or injuries some players may have, we have no info on this. It's just lame..
To be fair I am strongly in favor of replacing Therrien but do not want Roy to be the guy to do it.

I would like Boucher, Gallant, or at the risk of ostracizing myself, Martin.

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05-11-2013, 04:52 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I don't believe fights = toughness but this is interesting:
http://www.hockeyfights.com/leaders/teams/6/reg2013

This isn't an exception either, the Remparts are at or near the bottom of the Q in fights for at least the past 5 years.
I never equated fights with toughness, but if Roy has his teams hit intelligently, he can be given a chance to coach the Dogs.

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05-11-2013, 05:20 PM
  #124
hockeyrules123
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Originally Posted by LastRide View Post
Looks like the Av's are ready to steal him away. They Av's love digging through our organization. Losing MT isn't that big a deal as far as I am concerned. No big loss. Plus I didn't like some of the payers he was sending out on the PP among other things. I also read MT's games speech's are uninspiring. I would love to see Roy behind the bench.
If they wanted him, they would've hired him last year.

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05-11-2013, 05:22 PM
  #125
hockeyrules123
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
To be fair I am strongly in favor of replacing Therrien but do not want Roy to be the guy to do it.

I would like Boucher, Gallant, or at the risk of ostracizing myself, Martin.
Replacing Therrien? What stuff are these people smoking?

Do u think PK should be traded for Eric Brewer also?

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