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Old
05-11-2013, 08:08 PM
  #651
SeanCWombBroom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post

Gagne - Giroux - Voracek
Simmonds - Couturier - Schenn
Hartnell - Laughton - Read
Rinaldo - Hall - Talbot

Timonen - Schenn
Gardiner - Coburn
Gustafsson - Grossmann

Mason
Bryzgalov

I like that team.
Not in love with Bryz still being here (although I think realistically he may-- pending some luck like Luo being bought out and signing here).

I would switch Gagne and Hartnell. Hartnell's production would fall off a cliff there -- I'm not convinced Hartnell's little slump this year was permanent-- he also has chemistry with G and V. Both of whom are capable of loading him up for his one-timer from the circle, which seems (I haven't researched it) a higher percentage shot.

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05-11-2013, 08:20 PM
  #652
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don't want Gardiner

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Old
05-11-2013, 08:30 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
We have Timonen right now.

We have Gustafsson right now.

Neither are #1 defense but...

You go hard after Streit in the offseason.

You continue to develop Gostisbehere.

And you draft a defenseman high in this draft and next year.



Also, I'm not saying that Gus is going to be a #1 defenseman, but I really think his ability to carry minutes is going to be solid through his prime. Some people around here underestimate him substantially. He's not Timonen, but I have him penciled into our top 4 starting next year.


If you see the Flyers follow the model I just demonstrated, they will have no problems with their defense for years to come.
I dunno, I think you are taking a lot for granted there...at least some of those younger players won't pan out, meanwhile, the veterans are hobbled and/or questionable. Yes, Gus has looked good (and bad) at times, but he's yet to prove he's a full time top 4 guy...while I agree in drafting a d man or two or three to bolster the org'l depth there, they aren't going to help the team now or perhaps not even in a year or two from now. So this leaves the Flyers current D in serious doubt.

Timonen - aging, lost a step or two and breaking down - comign off season ending injury (broken bone) -- gone/retired in a year.

Coburn - Out of his depth and his game this season and coming off season ending injury. Which Coburn will show up next season?

Grossmann - Concussion issues- 'nuff said


Meszaros - Will be held together by duct tape - who knows if he can play and at what level..

Gus - Looked ok as a fill in in the top 4 but not ready to assume that role..not something to be depended on.

Gervais - Can move the puck a little but sucks at defensive coverage... needs to be limited, #7 reserve type guy.

Lauridsen - shows promise as a big physical defensive defenseman but a long way from being a regular.


If the team wants to be competitive next season and the season after that, they'd be well advised to get some top-4 D help...and they're going to need another after that, to replace Timonen. While most don't want to trade young assets with value unless it is for that alpha dog, "#1" defenseman, that trade may only come about once every few years or so, if at all. So, it's wait for something that may never come, whatever the consequences of that may be, or swing a trade to bring in one or two established, top four, puck carrying, offensively productive defensemen to complement the more defensively leaning crew we have (Grossman, Schenn, Coburn). There is a premium put on the top point producers, regardless of their defensive game..thus it will likely take a Couturier + or a Schenn + deal to make it happen. That's why I say, I would be willing to deal one of them, straight up, for top 4 offensive D men that are possibly available, such as Yandle, Bufyglien, Edler, or someone on that kind of level...you have to give to get, and this would be trading away a player whose value lies largely in his yet unfulfilled potential while bringing in a guy who is a proven top 4 D man in his prime who can produce 40-50+ points. Now, the exact target, I don't know...I named a few guys rumors swirl around... who knows who is actually available...regardless, I think these are the types of trades the team is more likely to pull off, while they continue to separately pursue a deal of that elusive Weber, Pietrangelo, Doughty, Chara type (i.e, deal that probably doesn't exist).

I also want to say that Couturier seems a touch overrated to me. I mean, I like him, and think he'll be a decent player, but his much ballyhooed "defensive abilites" took some breaks this season. I love his stuff against Malkin, but didn't see that kind of play with any frequency, but I did see a lot of gaffes at both ends of the ice. He, along with the rest of the team took a step back this year. He's so young, so you have to expect some growing pains, so my point is not to say that he's a bust or won't become a good player in the future, but rather to say that his play right now, is mediocre by NHL standards, and until there is progress sufficient enough to change that, his value will reside in the realm of hope and potential rather than actual performance. I think many people are letting their hopes and adulation for the player get ahead of the reality of where he's at and how that might factor in, in terms of his status as a potential trading chip.

Personally, I favor holding onto both Coots and Schenn as I think their value will go up substantially in the next few years as they develop their game in the NHL, but there's always the chance that this won't happen, and that the good-will they still have from being relatively recent top 10 draft picks will give way to a different reality, one of players who have yet to prove it in the NHL, thus making their value in trade decrease. That's why I am ok with the idea of trading a piece like one of them for the needed D if that opportunity presents itself...to trade a piece that is a largely unknown quantity for one that has a substantial proven value has a good risk/reward profile, imo. But hey, if a deal for such players can be made without moving the kids, say, centered around Hartnell and/or perhaps Coburn, or some prospects, that's great...we'll just have to see what Homer does.

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Old
05-11-2013, 08:36 PM
  #654
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the defense free agency crop sucks this year, and to get a top four defender it's going to make us weak somewhere else, better off keeping our picks and prospects, players and picks, see what we're doing close to the trade deadline

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05-12-2013, 12:08 AM
  #655
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The defense has question marks, but on paper it's pretty solid.

Timonen - L. Schenn
Coburn - Gustafsson
Grossmann - Meszaros
Gervais (yuck!)

Lauridsen, MA Bourdon, Manning, Alt, Konan among others down in the AHL is not bad at all either. If we draft a really nice defensive prospect (Nurse, Pulock, etc.) with our first rounder or even with our 2nd rounder (Morin, McCoshen, Santini, etc.) I don't think the organization is in bad shape. Even if they draft a blue-chip forward with the 1st rounder that opens up lots of ideas trade-wise.

If Alex Edler becomes available, jump on it! EDIT: Couturier, I would not move however.

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Old
05-12-2013, 01:12 AM
  #656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Call it overconfidence or arrogance...but I'm fairly confident going into next year with this or something similar to this lineup:

Gagne/Akeson - Giroux - Voracek
Simmonds - Couturier - Schenn
Hartnell - Laughton - Read
Rinaldo - Holmstrom/Hall - Talbot

Timonen - Schenn
Gustafsson/Streit - Coburn
Gustafsson/PMD - Grossmann

Mason/Bryzgalov
Mason/Bryzgalov

We may not be Stanley Cup Champions, but I think that gives us a legitimate chance to compete with the East. Can that be a top 2 team in NHL? Maybe not, but definitely a top 4-8. As long as Couturier, Gustafsson and both Schenns continue to make strides, we will be a direct competitor. All you can ask for is a shot. People act like we should be Cup Contenders every year, but that's unrealistic. There are only ever 6-8 teams with a legit shot. We can definitely be one of those teams with our roster.

Believing that we won't make changes is definitely a mistake though. Something will happen this offseason. We're the Flyers, so it always does. However, if no changes are made, I'm confident we can hang with the best.

In all honesty, I'd trade the 11th and 41st or Cousins for Gardiner...

Gagne - Giroux - Voracek
Simmonds - Couturier - Schenn
Hartnell - Laughton - Read
Rinaldo - Hall - Talbot

Timonen - Schenn
Gardiner - Coburn
Gustafsson - Grossmann

Mason
Bryzgalov

I like that team.
I am not convinced that Gagne can handle top line minutes anymore and be successful. Hes one of my favorites but I just dont think he can handle the minutes and the pounding that it would require for him to do.
Also am not sold on Akeson either. I dont care how he looked in his 1 game tryout. I personally think hes a tweener right now. may end up being too good for the AHL but not good enough to stick in the NHL full time. The guy is incredibly soft. See Jason Krog.
and I am not close to being interested in dealing a 1st and a 2nd for Jake Gardiner.
i think Couturier or Laughton are getting dealt this summer. I hope it doesnt happen, but I think it will happen. Wouldnt shock me if Holmgren overpays for Yandle.
And there will be something stupid/unpopular by Holmgren as well. Like Colton Orr to a multi year deal.

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Old
05-12-2013, 06:33 AM
  #657
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Oddly enough, I think Akeson could handle the first line. I didn't used to.

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05-12-2013, 06:55 AM
  #658
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Canuck's board seem pretty keen on a Coots + trade for Edler. I don't think Coots is what they really need (more goals and youth). Is Edler what the Flyers really need (PMD)?

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Old
05-12-2013, 07:00 AM
  #659
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Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
Oddly enough, I think Akeson could handle the first line. I didn't used to.
one game is to small a sample size, what remains to be seen is how he handles a cold streak, will he able o contribute in other ways or will he become invisible

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05-12-2013, 08:34 AM
  #660
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one game is to small a sample size, what remains to be seen is how he handles a cold streak, will he able o contribute in other ways or will he become invisible
Dat skating and passing though. It's high level. Looked natural.

I would add to the worries: Length of a full season, ability to play defense, muscled off the puck, and injuries caused by being smaller.

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05-12-2013, 09:25 AM
  #661
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Originally Posted by OzFlyer View Post
Canuck's board seem pretty keen on a Coots + trade for Edler. I don't think Coots is what they really need (more goals and youth). Is Edler what the Flyers really need (PMD)?
Not at the cost of Couturier+

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05-12-2013, 09:27 AM
  #662
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Not at the cost of Couturier+
I can agree. Also let me take this time to show appreciation for your avatar. That movie has the most muscle mass ever assembled in cinema history.

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05-12-2013, 02:41 PM
  #663
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I think the Flyers should really consider a deal for Yandle. He's far from perfect but his skillset is what this team needs. We have a bunch of guys who handle the puck like grenades. You need a guy on your team who can move the puck. Also, he could replace Kimmo who will be gone in a year. I think we need to drop the pursuit of a number one D-man. They don't come along very often and will cost you an arm and leg to acquire if they do hit the market. Yandle will cost you Coots or Laughton plus wihtout a doubt. You have to give up something to get something.

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05-12-2013, 04:37 PM
  #664
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I think the Flyers should really consider a deal for Yandle. He's far from perfect but his skillset is what this team needs. We have a bunch of guys who handle the puck like grenades. You need a guy on your team who can move the puck. Also, he could replace Kimmo who will be gone in a year. I think we need to drop the pursuit of a number one D-man. They don't come along very often and will cost you an arm and leg to acquire if they do hit the market. Yandle will cost you Coots or Laughton plus wihtout a doubt. You have to give up something to get something.
Thats an arm and a leg to me.

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05-12-2013, 04:43 PM
  #665
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I think the Flyers should really consider a deal for Yandle. He's far from perfect but his skillset is what this team needs. We have a bunch of guys who handle the puck like grenades. You need a guy on your team who can move the puck. Also, he could replace Kimmo who will be gone in a year. I think we need to drop the pursuit of a number one D-man. They don't come along very often and will cost you an arm and leg to acquire if they do hit the market. Yandle will cost you Coots or Laughton plus wihtout a doubt. You have to give up something to get something.
Trading for Yandle would be the worst thing Homer could do this summer. He's good offensively but he turns the puck over a ton and is a black hole defensively. If we're parting ways with Couturier, I would look else where for a defensemen.

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05-12-2013, 06:31 PM
  #666
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Trading for Yandle would be the worst thing Homer could do this summer. He's good offensively but he turns the puck over a ton and is a black hole defensively. If we're parting ways with Couturier, I would look else where for a defensemen.
We both know that's not true

While I think Yandle is generally over-rated (not a top end #1), he's a solid puck mover who plays adequate defense imo. He'd certainly produce at a significantly higher clip on a more gifted offensive team like Philadelphia. He does have a little of the Matt Carle-esque flair for the turnover, but given the architecture of the roster, he could easily be paired with a Schenn to form a very good top pairing. This would allow us to shelter Kimmo's minutes a little with Coburn or Grossmann, then line up Grossmann or Coburn with Gus to form a very balanced third pairing.

Now, all that said, Yandle is going to cost more than he's likely worth. That's whyI don't think it's worth the move. I'd prefer we improve through the draft, even if it means we are struggling to make the playoffs next season. We're not in a full rebuild, but we need enough re-tooling to realize that overpaying for Yandle at the expense of the longterm just isn't solid planning.

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05-12-2013, 06:58 PM
  #667
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Yandle is a one trick pony though. Saying hes adequate on defense is being kind. Theres a reason he doesnt play on the pk at all on a defense sound team.

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05-12-2013, 07:28 PM
  #668
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Yandle is a one trick pony though. Saying hes adequate on defense is being kind. Theres a reason he doesnt play on the pk at all on a defense sound team.
and if you put him with a defensive minded guy he will be fine. I like Yandle. Not enough to give up Couturier or the 11th for him but I like him.

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05-12-2013, 07:40 PM
  #669
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and if you put him with a defensive minded guy he will be fine. I like Yandle. Not enough to give up Couturier or the 11th for him but I like him.
Well ya I guess so. Kinda like Carle in a sense. Honestly, I think the Yandle is a better Carle is a perfect comparison. If Yandle is on the team, he'd easily be a scapegoat for most people. I have watched a decent amount of Yotes games due to my old roommate being a huge fan and from Arizona. The guys defense is pretty poor.

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05-12-2013, 07:50 PM
  #670
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Yandle is a one trick pony though. Saying hes adequate on defense is being kind. Theres a reason he doesnt play on the pk at all on a defense sound team.
I always thought his defensive play was lacking, as well. Maybe GFH is right, but to have to pair someone with a defensive minded guy at his price is asking a bit much, I think.

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05-12-2013, 08:05 PM
  #671
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Coots overall game reminds me of a smaller version of Martin Hanzel. Good defensively, can anchor a third line with some offensive aspects to his game. His skating will truly hold him back from from being a point producer in this league. You junior level point production does not always translate to the pros. I don't think he'll ever be a 60 to 70 point guy but a very good player in this league. I don't think he should be untouchable.

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05-12-2013, 08:51 PM
  #672
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Coots overall game reminds me of a smaller version of Martin Hanzel. Good defensively, can anchor a third line with some offensive aspects to his game. His skating will truly hold him back from from being a point producer in this league. You junior level point production does not always translate to the pros. I don't think he'll ever be a 60 to 70 point guy but a very good player in this league. I don't think he should be untouchable.
If Couts turns out that way it is only because he is given all the tough assignments night in, night out and never given a chance to flourish with linemates featuring offensive skill.

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05-12-2013, 09:18 PM
  #673
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I can agree. Also let me take this time to show appreciation for your avatar. That movie has the most muscle mass ever assembled in cinema history.


"you son of a *****!"

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05-12-2013, 09:31 PM
  #674
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Well ya I guess so. Kinda like Carle in a sense. Honestly, I think the Yandle is a better Carle is a perfect comparison. If Yandle is on the team, he'd easily be a scapegoat for most people. I have watched a decent amount of Yotes games due to my old roommate being a huge fan and from Arizona. The guys defense is pretty poor.
Yandle would be interesting because he would bring a new element to their back end. He is a border line elite offensive threat (much better than carle) from the back end, which the Flyers havent had in forever. He would fit well with Lavy's system and probably flourish in it. I could see him putting up 60-70 points, which would be pretty significant...a whole new threat for this team.

That being said, I agree with you about his defense. He is not really that stud, all around, number one D man everyone wants because his defensive game is nothing overwhelming. I still think he would greatly help our defense, especially since we have guys like Grossmann and Schenn to stabilize our own end...but he is not worth Couturier at this point.

I would offer something involving Read, maybe even Read + 1st. I still dont think PHX would do that but if they did...

Yandle-Schenn
Timonen-Coburn
Gustafsson-Grossmann
Meszaros

That's a pretty balanced and solid defense. I doubt they would pay Mez 4 mil to be our 7th, but I wouldnt be against it for next year only. Injuries happen, he could give Kimmon to occasional night off and if he plays well could even be a trade deadline chip. If he gets hurt, then he can just join pronger on the LTIR.

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05-12-2013, 09:48 PM
  #675
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Wasn't there a rumor that Homer offered Couturier+ for Yandle at the deadline?

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