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2013 Leafs Trades/Proposals/Signings XIV - UFA talk now

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Old
05-12-2013, 08:53 AM
  #726
Leafsforlife98
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Originally Posted by Rob Brown View Post
I hope Morgan makes the team next year. I'd like to see:

Phaneuf
Franson
Gardiner
Rielly
Gunnarsson

Then maybe go out and get another vet, with Fraser as the 7th man. Trade Liles IMO.
Way too many puckmovers, which would be great for our Powerplay, but we would get killed in the corners and in the playoffs, when shutdown defenceman actually earn their paychecks the most and value goes way up. Due to intensity levels increasing and matchups becoming a bigger factor. One of Franson, Gardiner or Rielly has to go IMO.

I would love to see Franson and our 1st go for a primo #2 shutdown to play with Dion. Then Gardiner can play 2nd pairing minutes (And 1st powerplay) with Gunnarsson. Rielly can then get sheltered minutes on the 3rd pairing with a Fraser/Holzer/Blacker/Liles

OR

Keep Franson on the 2nd pairing (which he has earned this year) and package Jake Gardiner with the 1st round pick and another asset (Kulemin, Grabovski, Frattin or others) and try to pick up a #1 center and a good shutdown defenceman. Maybe not good enough to pair with Dion, but good enough to play with Franson (2nd pair minutes) and get some of those big minutes off of Dion and Dion can continue to play with Gunnarsson.

Either plan is good for me.

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05-12-2013, 09:08 AM
  #727
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We can't have Gardiner, Gunnarson and Reilly on our blue line - it's just too soft IMO.


I think we'd be foolish to use our 1st + Franson for a #2 defenseman. Franson may very well be that #2 defenseman - we don't know yet because Carly hasn't been able to play them together.

But yes, completely agree that we should be trying everything possible to move up into the top-7 and draft one of MacKinnon, Barkov, Monahan or Lindholm. Each of those players is supposed to be what you'd call 'franchise' centres, with MacKinnon and Barkov expected to produce next year, and Monahan and Lindholm on the fence for playing in the show or needing 1 more year.

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05-12-2013, 10:49 AM
  #728
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I will never understand why people see Gunnarsson as a soft, puck-moving defenseman.

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05-12-2013, 11:11 AM
  #729
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Nonis has a lot of decisions to make this offseason.

If Bozak wants 5mil- bye bye. If he can be had for 4-4.5ish, sign him up. I like his attitude, his compete level, and he's a great PK'er and fast as hell. Not a #1 C of course, but he could work nicely as a #3C.

How good is Kadri really? Until we figure this out I don't see us trading for another C.

Clarkie is likely gone. I'd assume we go hard for Clarkson, which I don't mind. TBH I'd rather have Jagr; short term allowing our up and comers to step in in a couple years (I think Leivo will make this team sooner than you'd think).

Will Ranger sign an NHL contract? If so, I think a Ranger - Rielly third pairing could work. We need a steady presence like Ranger to play with him. Perhaps Ranger isn't NHL quality? Always a possibility, but I doubt it.

With so much defensive depth coming through the pipes, I don't think it's worth trading for a better partner for Dion right now. I'm not even convinced that Dion is here long term (not because he's not good, he is very good, but fitting him, Rielly, and Gards on our top two pairings will be tough).

Veteran backup is needed. Ironically enough, Giguere would be a good fit. If Reimer falters, and Scrivens goes in, it puts a lot of pressure on Reimer. If Reimer falters and a veteran goes in, the vet shoulders the pressure. Also don't really like Scrivens as a backup.
Next year I think we're looking at this:

JVR - Bozak - Kessel
Lupul - Kadri - Jagr/Clarkson
Frattin - Grabovski - Kulemin
Komarov - McClement - Orr

Dion - Gunnarsson
Gardiner - Franson
Rielly - Ranger
#7 Fraser

Reimer
Veteran

I don't expect huge changes
If Bozak wants 4 million on a multi year deal we should let him walk otherwise we'll regret it in a season or two when a player comes available we truly need.

Most of our off-season decisions are waiting on what Paul Ranger decides. If he signs we can trade out Liles for whatever little return we could (cap space being the biggest benefit). Or we could look at trading Gunnarson or Franson for the right return.

I like the thought of adding a veteran forward to be what Recchi was for the Bruins. Ideally they come in on a one year deal but I'd consider two for Jagr, McDonald or Briere once he gets bought out.

Contract negotiations need to be opened up with Kulemin this summer. If he looks to want to reink for something in the 3 range we extend him if he looks to want much more then we should deal him. We can't afford to overpay our secondary players but we also can't afford to keep losing them as UFAs (like CMac and potentially Bozak) this summer.

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Old
05-12-2013, 11:30 AM
  #730
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Originally Posted by Frank Stallone View Post
I will never understand why people see Gunnarsson as a soft, puck-moving defenseman.
Watching games helps

His 14 PIMs and generously reported 78 hits in just under 40 games this year certainly indicate as much. Or his 20 PIMs and 114 hits in 78 games last year. When was the last time he tuned a guy for running Reimer? Or lined a guy up for an open-ice devastating hit?

When was the last time he even got in a fight? Took a roughing penalty? Point is, he's not 'hard' at all - he doesn't inflict fear into the opposition, doesn't present any kind of threat, and doesn't even play with an edge to his game.

THATS why people see him as a soft, puck moving defenseman.

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05-12-2013, 11:51 AM
  #731
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We need big tough D watching the battles in front of Reimer has been painful

You cannot ice a team of 6 puck moving D...we need 2 Big stay at home D

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05-12-2013, 11:57 AM
  #732
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Originally Posted by dubplatepressure View Post
Watching games helps

His 14 PIMs and generously reported 78 hits in just under 40 games this year certainly indicate as much. Or his 20 PIMs and 114 hits in 78 games last year. When was the last time he tuned a guy for running Reimer? Or lined a guy up for an open-ice devastating hit?

When was the last time he even got in a fight? Took a roughing penalty? Point is, he's not 'hard' at all - he doesn't inflict fear into the opposition, doesn't present any kind of threat, and doesn't even play with an edge to his game.

THATS why people see him as a soft, puck moving defenseman.
So you'd rather have some poor skating, easily beat to the outside, penalty taking, get beat up in every fight defender?

They had one, and it was ugly.

I'll take the well rounded Gunnarsson over a one dimensional pylon everyday.

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05-12-2013, 11:58 AM
  #733
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Honestly I'd love to go into the season like this.

Phaneuf-Gunnar
Gardiner-Franson
With these 2 lines rotating as 3rd
Liles-Blacker
Rielly-Fraser

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Old
05-12-2013, 12:08 PM
  #734
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So you'd rather have some poor skating, easily beat to the outside, penalty taking, get beat up in every fight defender?

They had one, and it was ugly.

I'll take the well rounded Gunnarsson over a one dimensional pylon everyday.
Please tell me in what world does the rejection of one endorse the polar opposite of another this place makes me chuckle sometimes.

Were we discussing the degree of efficacy his playing style has on our blueline I'd consider your comment relevant but as is, whether his role still suits or fills our needs is irrelevant when discussing the elements of his playing style (which is that of a soft, puck-moving defenseman), and NOT how good or bad that is for the team.

As a footnote, I too would take Gunnarson over a pylon, but is it even necessary to make these plainly obvious assertions?

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05-12-2013, 12:53 PM
  #735
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Originally Posted by dubplatepressure View Post
Watching games helps

His 14 PIMs and generously reported 78 hits in just under 40 games this year certainly indicate as much. Or his 20 PIMs and 114 hits in 78 games last year. When was the last time he tuned a guy for running Reimer? Or lined a guy up for an open-ice devastating hit?

When was the last time he even got in a fight? Took a roughing penalty? Point is, he's not 'hard' at all - he doesn't inflict fear into the opposition, doesn't present any kind of threat, and doesn't even play with an edge to his game.

THATS why people see him as a soft, puck moving defenseman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubplatepressure View Post
Please tell me in what world does the rejection of one endorse the polar opposite of another this place makes me chuckle sometimes.

Were we discussing the degree of efficacy his playing style has on our blueline I'd consider your comment relevant but as is, whether his role still suits or fills our needs is irrelevant when discussing the elements of his playing style (which is that of a soft, puck-moving defenseman), and NOT how good or bad that is for the team.

As a footnote, I too would take Gunnarson over a pylon, but is it even necessary to make these plainly obvious assertions?
Why are his hits any more generously stated than other Leafs?
Why does a player have to fight to prove he is tough?
You missed his hit on Seguin the other night? I thought it was quite good and didn't take himself out of position to do it.
Having a high number of PiMs doesn't make you a good anything.

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05-12-2013, 01:08 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Why are his hits any more generously stated than other Leafs?
Why does a player have to fight to prove he is tough?
You missed his hit on Seguin the other night? I thought it was quite good and didn't take himself out of position to do it.
Having a high number of PiMs doesn't make you a good anything.
Physicality is a big part of the game especially come playoff time. I'd rather have my secondary dmen enjoy making life difficult for other teams by having that as part of their game.

Gunnarson is a defensive dman who can cover a good range of ice and play a simple game which works for playing with Phaneuf (who Gunnarson benefits from playing with) and he is able consistently make the simple pass up ice but adds very little in the offensive zone.

Gunnarson doesn't hit often enough or hard enough for my liking and I'd prefer 2nd pairing players with limited offensive upside like Orpik, Scuderi, Regehr, Boychuk, Ference on my team because they make life absolutely miserable for other teams by adding that dirty physical side to their game.

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05-12-2013, 01:11 PM
  #737
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All this talk about having "too many puck movers" is really making my brain hurt.

As we've seen time and time again, shutdown defensemen are a dying breed in today's NHL. It's the Karlssons and Gardiners that thrive (note that Gardiner has clearly been our best defenseman in this series). The Frasers, Holzers and O'Byrnes are one-dimensional pylons. They've been our worst defensemen.

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05-12-2013, 01:31 PM
  #738
dubplatepressure
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Why are his hits any more generously stated than other Leafs?
Why does a player have to fight to prove he is tough?
You missed his hit on Seguin the other night? I thought it was quite good and didn't take himself out of position to do it.
Having a high number of PiMs doesn't make you a good anything.

One hit doesn't a hard defenseman make. You seem to be getting stuck on the notion of effectiveness vs style of play. You do understand that we were discussing what type of player he was, right? Would YOU classify him as a hard-nosed, defensive defenseman?

My point was that Gunnarson is not categorically 'hard', synonymous with NHL jargon such as tough, grisly, hard-nosed, mean, etc. PIMs generally correlate to a level of toughness or meanness as playing on the edge tends to land you in penalty trouble occasionally. Having a high number of penalty minutes in fact does mean players are good at at least one thing - playing on or over the 'edge' of what is legal.


Do we need Gunnarson to be either more physical or tougher? Entirely different discussion. Please stop confusing them.

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05-12-2013, 01:41 PM
  #739
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Gunnarsson isn't much of a puck moving dman either.

Ditch the "soft" and "hard" term when it comes to him. He's a reliable defensive dman.

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05-12-2013, 02:12 PM
  #740
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Originally Posted by dubplatepressure View Post
Watching games helps

His 14 PIMs and generously reported 78 hits in just under 40 games this year certainly indicate as much. Or his 20 PIMs and 114 hits in 78 games last year. When was the last time he tuned a guy for running Reimer? Or lined a guy up for an open-ice devastating hit?

When was the last time he even got in a fight? Took a roughing penalty? Point is, he's not 'hard' at all - he doesn't inflict fear into the opposition, doesn't present any kind of threat, and doesn't even play with an edge to his game.

THATS why people see him as a soft, puck moving defenseman.
I could live with him not being "hard" to play against cause he's sound positionally but it's his puck moving abilities or should I say "LACK OF" makes him a tweener for me that wont be worth the 4million plus a year contract to re-sign him.

He's solid not going to lie but think of a top 4 like this for 5 v 5 hockey

Phaneuf
Franson
Gardiner
Reilly

Add 2 big, tough, shot blocking, shut down types that would be used heavily for the PK you end up with 2 pairings that could be relied on to play 25 minutes a game if need be. A top 4 like that would be the envy of NHL teams that the Leafs would have as a D core.

Think of the transition game with the speed of the forwards. Let teams try and dump & chase with a Gardiner and a Reilly back there to skate and move the puck.

I see a top 4 like that and I think to myself why invest 4+ million a year on Gunnarson. Just doesn't make sense to me. Especially when you got a Jesse Blacker ready for promotion to the big club on top of Reilly in the pipe lines.

Don Cherry criticized Vancouver's GM for not having any guts well IMO Nonis should show guts by making this Leaf team even younger and promote from within, D"Amigo is a player they should clear a roster spot for as a 3rd line 2way depth PK player in letting Mac go. He will be a favorite of Carlyle's

YOUTH MOVEMENT AND WATCH THIS TEAM GROW should be the way Nonis moves with this team.

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05-12-2013, 02:16 PM
  #741
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Originally Posted by dimi78 View Post
I could live with him not being "hard" to play against cause he's sound positionally but it's his puck moving abilities or should I say "LACK OF" makes him a tweener for me that wont be worth the 4million plus a year contract to re-sign him.

He's solid not going to lie but think of a top 4 like this for 5 v 5 hockey

Phaneuf
Franson
Gardiner
Reilly

Add 2 big, tough, shot blocking, shut down types that would be used heavily for the PK you end up with 2 pairings that could be relied on to play 25 minutes a game if need be. A top 4 like that would be the envy of NHL teams that the Leafs would have as a D core.

Think of the transition game with the speed of the forwards. Let teams try and dump & chase with a Gardiner and a Reilly back there to skate and move the puck.

I see a top 4 like that and I think to myself why invest 4+ million a year on Gunnarson. Just doesn't make sense to me. Especially when you got a Jesse Blacker ready for promotion to the big club on top of Reilly in the pipe lines.

Don Cherry criticized Vancouver's GM for not having any guts well IMO Nonis should show guts by making this Leaf team even younger and promote from within, D"Amigo is a player they should clear a roster spot for as a 3rd line 2way depth PK player in letting Mac go. He will be a favorite of Carlyle's

YOUTH MOVEMENT AND WATCH THIS TEAM GROW should be the way Nonis moves with this team.
Franson is an offensive d-man, and is adequate in his own zone. He's not who I'd want out there protecting the lead or when the opposition team is pressuring. Kind of like Carlyle puts out Gunnarsson to protect the lead over Franson.

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05-12-2013, 02:19 PM
  #742
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Keep Fraser, the guy is our enforcer on D and still is young. People continually overlook how toughness has been a key to us doing so well during the season. It might not mean as much come playoffs, but during the season it definitely does.

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05-12-2013, 02:32 PM
  #743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dimi78 View Post
I could live with him not being "hard" to play against cause he's sound positionally but it's his puck moving abilities or should I say "LACK OF" makes him a tweener for me that wont be worth the 4million plus a year contract to re-sign him.

He's solid not going to lie but think of a top 4 like this for 5 v 5 hockey

Phaneuf
Franson
Gardiner
Reilly

Add 2 big, tough, shot blocking, shut down types that would be used heavily for the PK you end up with 2 pairings that could be relied on to play 25 minutes a game if need be. A top 4 like that would be the envy of NHL teams that the Leafs would have as a D core.

Think of the transition game with the speed of the forwards. Let teams try and dump & chase with a Gardiner and a Reilly back there to skate and move the puck.

I see a top 4 like that and I think to myself why invest 4+ million a year on Gunnarson. Just doesn't make sense to me. Especially when you got a Jesse Blacker ready for promotion to the big club on top of Reilly in the pipe lines.

Don Cherry criticized Vancouver's GM for not having any guts well IMO Nonis should show guts by making this Leaf team even younger and promote from within, D"Amigo is a player they should clear a roster spot for as a 3rd line 2way depth PK player in letting Mac go. He will be a favorite of Carlyle's

YOUTH MOVEMENT AND WATCH THIS TEAM GROW should be the way Nonis moves with this team.
OK, I've been preaching this for a while now, but people need to lose this mentality. On a championship team a guy like D'amigo is a 4th line energy guy.

Think of DET with Maltby, Draper and Mcarty. OR NJ when Madden anchored the 4th line, and scored 24 goals, all even strength or short handed.

The third line still has to be able to produce offensively. Sure 3 two way players is ideal, but if the choice is between a Kadri-type and a McClemment-type then the choice should be obvious.

A 4th line of D'amigo McClemment Komarov I think is just the type of line a champion team can throw out for 8-10min a game to keep the KEssels and LUpuls fresh for offence late in the game.

Can anyone here say they would be comfortable putting Orr, McClement McLaren out there for a regular shift in double OT? I sure wouldn't.

Time to fully shed the 3rd line is a specialty Checking line mentality. UNless you have one that is capable of keeping up with, and shutting down the Crosby's and Tavares' of the league, then they had better have some offensive capabilities of their own.

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05-12-2013, 02:38 PM
  #744
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Franson is an offensive d-man, and is adequate in his own zone. He's not who I'd want out there protecting the lead or when the opposition team is pressuring. Kind of like Carlyle puts out Gunnarsson to protect the lead over Franson.
Franson is legitimate 2 way D men thank you very much. Would rather have him out there with his size, reach, forearm shivers and excellent passing abilities out there protecting the lead.

Honestly folks Gunnarson has become the most overrated underrated player on this forum. You lose Franson and a big chunk of the Leafs D core's depth go's down with him.

For the record Gunnarson go's out there to protect the lead not because he's more effective but because of that horse that he has as a D partner Phanuef can't play 5 minute shifts you need another horse on another pairing when he's not on the ice factor in Cody Franson.

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05-12-2013, 02:46 PM
  #745
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We are 2 pieces away from being a legit force in the East!

1. RHD that can log big minutes and play a solid 2 way game.

2. #1 center with size, skill and scoring ability.

Dream:

1. Pietrangelo

2. Kopitar

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05-12-2013, 02:49 PM
  #746
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I will never understand why people see Gunnarsson as a soft, puck-moving defenseman.
agreed.

He is a reliable rounded 2-way Dman.

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05-12-2013, 02:56 PM
  #747
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Franson is legitimate 2 way D men thank you very much. Would rather have him out there with his size, reach, forearm shivers and excellent passing abilities out there protecting the lead.

Honestly folks Gunnarson has become the most overrated underrated player on this forum. You lose Franson and a big chunk of the Leafs D core's depth go's down with him.

For the record Gunnarson go's out there to protect the lead not because he's more effective but because of that horse that he has as a D partner Phanuef can't play 5 minute shifts you need another horse on another pairing when he's not on the ice factor in Cody Franson.
When we are deep enough to be able to put Franson with Phaneuf, I think we will see both improve.

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05-12-2013, 03:15 PM
  #748
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If Bozak wants 4 million on a multi year deal we should let him walk otherwise we'll regret it in a season or two when a player comes available we truly need.Most of our off-season decisions are waiting on what Paul Ranger decides. If he signs we can trade out Liles for whatever little return we could (cap space being the biggest benefit). Or we could look at trading Gunnarson or Franson for the right return.

I like the thought of adding a veteran forward to be what Recchi was for the Bruins. Ideally they come in on a one year deal but I'd consider two for Jagr, McDonald or Briere once he gets bought out.

Contract negotiations need to be opened up with Kulemin this summer. If he looks to want to reink for something in the 3 range we extend him if he looks to want much more then we should deal him. We can't afford to overpay our secondary players but we also can't afford to keep losing them as UFAs (like CMac and potentially Bozak) this summer.
Like all the other number 1 centers that have been available over the years? its not unfair to say Bozak is not a number 1 center, but he has done a great job in the role he was placed in. Bozak is a much better player than many give him credit for, he has chemistry with his team mates, and hasnt hurt the team. To not sign him with the assumption that a top center will be available is extremely short sighted.

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05-12-2013, 03:27 PM
  #749
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Like all the other number 1 centers that have been available over the years? its not unfair to say Bozak is not a number 1 center, but he has done a great job in the role he was placed in. Bozak is a much better player than many give him credit for, he has chemistry with his team mates, and hasnt hurt the team. To not sign him with the assumption that a top center will be available is extremely short sighted.
I've wanted an upgrade, but KEssel is scoring a solid PPG with him and a decent winger on the other side. IF we load up the 2nd and 3rd lines this team can be a contender even with Bozak as our #1.

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05-12-2013, 03:28 PM
  #750
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Latest Luongo rumour....

I was in a bar last night and overheard Healy and Hughson.Hughson was crying that Gillis was in huge trouble with the Sedin's aging and being useless when it counts.Gillis had offered Nonnis Luongo and his first rounder(2013) for Grabo,Komi.

Nonnis said he wanted 2 firsts because Vancouver will suck next year.

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