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Should The Habs Replace MT With Patrick Roy ?

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Old
05-12-2013, 10:42 AM
  #151
Dr Gonzo
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I don't get why we should even consider him.

No pro experience, his player awards are completely irrelevant and he wins in the Q by buying a ton of imports.

This thread makes...no sense.

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05-12-2013, 10:45 AM
  #152
ZARTONK
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How is this thread still going?

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05-12-2013, 11:27 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
That said, I'd rather have Boucher than Roy for our next coach.. whenever we replace Therrien in the future.
I agree I would rather have Boucher than Roy and was hoping the Habs would hire him at the time, but no dice. Considering Therrien isn't going anywhere for now. Boucher will probably get a job somewhere else. We won't see Boucher with the Habs anytime soon.

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05-12-2013, 11:29 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by ZARTONK View Post
How is this thread still going?
Because people are blinded by the 2nd place finish.

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05-12-2013, 11:30 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by ZARTONK View Post
How is this thread still going?
Patrick Roy is in the thread title.

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05-12-2013, 11:39 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Born in 1909 View Post
Patrick Roy is in the thread title.



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05-12-2013, 11:40 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by ZARTONK View Post
How is this thread still going?
comedic relief

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Old
05-12-2013, 11:48 AM
  #158
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Bring back Jacques Martin at least with him we made it further....
Keep your day job...

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Old
05-12-2013, 02:36 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Millpool View Post
Of course, because some of us have a different analysis of coaching in this series we know nothing about hockey. There are tons of excuses and reasons why we lost. I don't think MT's coaching helped. We might have won under different circumstances, but we had to play with the cards we were dealt. And again, I'm not saying he should be fired; he did a really great job this season. But he faltered in the playoffs along with many others. He certainly deserves to be back though.
No, it's because some people think Therrien got outcoached since our players weren't crashing the net...
I must say that is some seriously deep analysis..
Am I supposed to believe Therrien actually tells his players not to crash the opposing goalie?? Doesn't every freaking coach out there tells his players to crash and screen the goalie? It's probably the simplest and most obvious strategy, everybody does it.

But no, apparently Therrien is so dumb and clueless that he can't tell his players to do it. When people say this, ya, I'm gonna say their knowledge of coaching is close to non-existent.

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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
To be honest, it's because Therrien looks like one of those old-school illiterate coaches who doesn't know much in the way of tactics or advanced stats - he's one of those player's coaches through and through.

I was bemused at his appointment and in disbelief as the season wore on and we still hadn't seen any adversity (were we that good?!?!) then the bad streak started and we didn't get out of it until our unceremonious ejection from the playoffs. Then came the excuses - injuries! refs! price! the PQ! - but in reality it was Therrien who couldn't right the ship, who couldn't adjust and whose team made the same critical mistakes night in, night out. The Habs were not prepared for any fight-back and did not adjust once.

Players like Ryder, Markov, Gorges, Diaz, Subban and yes, David Desharnais, woefully underperformed and looked like they a few gears from top speed - that's on the coach.

The Defensive breakdown and exposure of the goalie - that's on the coach.

The brutal special teams, the inept Diamond formation and the over-reliance on PK Subban - that's on the coach.

The thuggish bench brawls (that failed, and embarrassed us) - that's on the coach.

I'm not saying he's due to get fired but he's on a short leash for sure. If he bottles it next season and doesn't adjust his damn gameplan, he's gone by December.
Doesn't know advanced stats or tactics? Hmmm..like crashing the net? That's one of the reason why you said he was outcoached was it not? That our team didn't crash the net and screen Andy enough. That's some serious advanced tactic right there!
I mean, I don't think the fact our biggest net crasher is one of the smallest players in the NHL, and that our only big crasher played with a dislocated shoulder. Nope, that probably has nothing to do with it.
I'm sure it's Therrien just not telling his players to adopt this futuristic, creative, original, and seriously advanced strategy..

I mean, it's not like Therrien understands coaching to the point where he would send a different center on the ice if the faceoff is on the right or left. It's not like he does things like that..He clearly doesn't understand the game as good as you do...


It's become quite clear that you simply don't like Therrien. You blame him for some ridiculous things.

PK hasn't under performed. DD had a bad year, but let's blame Therrien for that..
Gorges also wasn't as solid. I think every player in the NHL that has a difficult season should blame their coach for it.
Markov was clearly just a step behind after playing so little hockey, and fans labeled him as a non playoff performer way before this season.
Diaz just got back from injury.
Ryder was given ample opportunities, like DD, but couldn't step up.

But you're confusing me, I thought you said in a previous post that if you played sports, then you'd know players would never drop their gears and always give out 100% through and through. Now you're saying those guys were a few gears away from top speed. So which is it? Oh let me guess, they probably don't like Therrien or didn't like his strategies so they subconsciously give less effort.

Please man, give it a rest, your attempt to discredit Therrien for whatever reason is so lame.

The defensive breakdown and exposure of Price might have to do with the fact that our biggest Dman is a rookie that weighs a tad over 200lbs. Let's also disregard goals that really had no business being goals in the first place. It's absolutely Therrien's fault that Price can't save a shot with no screen at the top of the faceoff circle.

Over reliance of PK? You mean the Norris nominee and leader of the NHL in PP points?? Ya, what a dumb strategy to rely on him, especially when you're next wave includes Bouillon..
Some things could have been done differently on the PP, but playing PK less isn't one.


What next? Oh yea, the brawl. Right. Please man, now that's just pathetic..I'm not gonna bother responding to that one. Let's blame everything on Therrien, it'll be simpler like that.



Therrien isn't perfect. He made mistakes. But he wasn't out coached. He was definitely out-witted, but coaching wise it was an even match up.
The reality of it is we could have beaten Ottawa with slightly better goaltending, or at least be up 3-1. I doubt we would have kept winning with all the injuries we had 4-5 games in. Coaching was a non issue.


Last edited by Kriss E: 05-12-2013 at 02:52 PM.
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Old
05-12-2013, 03:17 PM
  #160
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As much as I am not a fan of MT at this point I would take him over Roy. Now Roy in Hamilton over Lefebvre would be a good move. Get some professional coaching experience.

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05-12-2013, 04:37 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
In two years it might actually be a good idea to fire him. Nice that you have a crystal ball for that one.

Right now though it's a completely stupid idea. As for the whole French comment... wtf does that have to do with anything? Guy got us a Division title. Stop looking for things to be upset about.

I actually think we were the better team on many occasion. Our problem was not going to the net. Could MT have done better there? Sure. But when you're given a lineup of guys who don't play that way it's going to be difficult.


Sure, thanks for asking.

We lost. I have no problem giving credit to Ottawa and good luck to them going forward. But that series could've easily gone the other way.

I didn't see game one but everyone says that we should've won it.
We won game two.
We could've/should've won game four if not for incompetent reffing.

We had tons of players get injured as well.

Look, I'm not saying that the Sens didn't deserve to win. They won, kudos to them. I'm also not saying that we couldn't have done some things differently - esp going to the net - but unfortunately, that's just not the way our team is. We don't have guys like Holmstrom who will sit there and pay the price. MT should've done something about that but it's a roster problem as well.

Price, Pac, Eller... not easy to win without those guys.

Look we lost. MT could've been better just like everyone else but I don't think MT was outcoached. Its a game of inches and we easily could've been up 3-1 in the series after game four.


I really hate those kinds of arguments... MOST teams, players and coaches will never win cups. Doesn't make it a failing of the coach. And the players who do eventually win are called 'chokers' for most of their careers until they finally win and then everyone praises them for having a great career.

Yzerman is such a perfect example. He was awesome. His teams lost in spite of him but he was labeled a choker. He finally wins in his mid 30s because he finally has a good team with him and all of a sudden he's the best captain ever...

MT hasn't won a cup. So what? He did a great job in Montreal this year (even if I disagreed with a lot of what he did) and should be praised for it. The series was close and could've gone either way. But because we lost we should shoot the coach and say he was outdone by Maclean? Sorry but I don't see it that way at all.
By far the most intelligent post of this thread. It is entirely factual and unlike the hate posts that are driven by an agenda to remove MT from his coaching position by making false claims that he was outcoached, it is honest.
This from a guy that is one of the premier "rebuilders" on this forum so his opinion should be doubly critical considering we actually didn't tank like he wanted!

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Old
05-12-2013, 05:21 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
No, it's because some people think Therrien got outcoached since our players weren't crashing the net...
I must say that is some seriously deep analysis..
But no, apparently Therrien is so dumb and clueless that he can't tell his players to do it. When people say this, ya, I'm gonna say their knowledge of coaching is close to non-existent.

Doesn't know advanced stats or tactics? Hmmm..like crashing the net? That's one of the reason why you said he was outcoached was it not? That our team didn't crash the net and screen Andy enough. That's some serious advanced tactic right there!

I mean, it's not like Therrien understands coaching to the point where he would send a different center on the ice if the faceoff is on the right or left. It's not like he does things like that..He clearly doesn't understand the game as good as you do...
I don't understand why so many people are so anxious to absolve MT of all wrong-doing here. I don't think anyone here is saying that he is the reason we lost. That would be foolish. But he was out-coached in this series. It happens. It's ok. He still deserves another shot. But to ignore all evidence and blabber on and on about all the injuries just gets tiring. We know - a lot of guys were hurt. But that doesn't excuse your coach from making no adjustments at all and not trying to adapt and respond to your team. But wait, we outshot them! Then he obviously did a great job! Please.

I don't know why you're going on and on about crashing the net. That was hardly the only point brought up here. It's clear that the team was woefully exposed down the stretch and in the first round. Of course there were many factors, but coaching was one of them. Overall, he did a good job this year, but he definitely faltered at the end and will need to show that he is more willing to adjust as things change. (Also, I don't get your point about faceoffs, because that is laughable. Everyone knows that. What Therrien should have been doing at such an important stage was to have more than one out there)

This team is far from perfect. So I don't get why everyone is relying so hard on these excuses and not laying any blame at all on the team. You're right, the series very well could have gone differently. But it didn't. And having everyone healthy would have helped, but we didn't. Thus we had to respond, failed to, and didn't make much of a fight out of it. Hopefully lessons will be learned.

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05-12-2013, 05:28 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Over reliance of PK? You mean the Norris nominee and leader of the NHL in PP points?? Ya, what a dumb strategy to rely on him, especially when you're next wave includes Bouillon.. Some things could have been done differently on the PP, but playing PK less isn't one.
Also, he's not suggesting you play PK less. He's suggesting you diversify your playbook so you don't rely on feeding him the puck at the same spot over and over as your only way of scoring. How would that not improve the powerplay? Small point, you just missed it.

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05-12-2013, 06:35 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Millpool View Post
I don't understand why so many people are so anxious to absolve MT of all wrong-doing here. I don't think anyone here is saying that he is the reason we lost. That would be foolish. But he was out-coached in this series. It happens. It's ok. He still deserves another shot. But to ignore all evidence and blabber on and on about all the injuries just gets tiring. We know - a lot of guys were hurt. But that doesn't excuse your coach from making no adjustments at all and not trying to adapt and respond to your team. But wait, we outshot them! Then he obviously did a great job! Please.
I haven't read one person say MT was without flaws.
You can't just throw out meaningless things without being called out on it though. If people are gonna say he got out coached and all they can come up with is ''we got exposed and failed to answer. We needed to crash the net more.'' then I'm gonna say they're clueless.
Especially when they agree this could have easily been 3-1 for the Habs.

You can be sick of hearing about injuries, so am I, doesn't make them any less important though.

It's not about shots. We controlled the pace during most of the game in Game 1-2-4. We outchanced them as well.

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I don't know why you're going on and on about crashing the net. That was hardly the only point brought up here. It's clear that the team was woefully exposed down the stretch and in the first round. Of course there were many factors, but coaching was one of them. Overall, he did a good job this year, but he definitely faltered at the end and will need to show that he is more willing to adjust as things change. (Also, I don't get your point about faceoffs, because that is laughable. Everyone knows that. What Therrien should have been doing at such an important stage was to have more than one out there)
I focused on crashing the net because if you bring it up, then I have to wonder just how freaking stupid you think Therrien is. If you, or anybody else, are going to criticize Therrien by saying one of his mistakes was not telling our players to crash the net or screen the keeper, then I'm gonna call you clueless again.

About the FOs. Everyone knows that? Why would someone that does not know that he should his players to crash the net but smart enough to start using different centers depending on where the faceoff is taken? That just doesn't add up.
Don't come back to say ''again about the net crashing'', instead understand the point, that Therrien is a lot more aware of things than some people think.

He isn't free of mistakes, like every other coach, but that doesn't mean he got out coached. If Ottawa dominated us, then yea, we could talk about getting exposed, but they didn't. There was no mismatch in coaching.
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This team is far from perfect. So I don't get why everyone is relying so hard on these excuses and not laying any blame at all on the team. You're right, the series very well could have gone differently. But it didn't. And having everyone healthy would have helped, but we didn't. Thus we had to respond, failed to, and didn't make much of a fight out of it. Hopefully lessons will be learned.
Not sure what you've been reading really..
The team is far from perfect, nobody ever denied that. We all want to improve our size on the wing and on the back end. But again, in no way does this mean Therrien got out coached. We don't have the team that can respond to missing the players i that went out. We're not talking about Travis Moen, Armstrong or Bouillon here.
I know it's tough for certain fans to do, but at some point you have to be realistic. Missing Emelin, Eller, Gionta, MaxPac, Prust, White and Price was going to affect us a lot.

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Also, he's not suggesting you play PK less. He's suggesting you diversify your playbook so you don't rely on feeding him the puck at the same spot over and over as your only way of scoring. How would that not improve the powerplay? Small point, you just missed it.
I didn't miss anything. All of these words are so easy to say when you're sitting behind a cpu screen with very little info as to how things actually operate.
When are they supposed to practice this new PP strategy? After Thursday night and before Friday's game? We played 5 games in 8 nights and a lot of players were banged up and fatigued.
And I don't know about feeding PK at the same spot. PK and Markov are very mobile on the point and constantly switch positions, they also change formations going from Diamond to box.

Ottawa has the best PK in the league, and they also had arguably the best goalie of the NHL this year. We also didn't make life all that super hard for Andy by not screening him well. That has a lot more to do with our inability to score than lacking mobility.

I would have liked to see different line combos on the PP, and have been vocal about it all season. I like the good old way when even strength and pp lines were different.
I also think Bouillon or Gorges have no business playing on the 2nd wave.

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05-12-2013, 09:07 PM
  #165
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Roy for President in the Cam Neely role in Montreal.

He wouldn't let Bergevin get guys like Moen and Drewinsky and Armstrong.

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05-12-2013, 09:21 PM
  #166
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Roy for President in the Cam Neely role in Montreal.

He wouldn't let Bergevin get guys like Moen and Drewinsky and Armstrong.
MB never got Moen.

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05-12-2013, 10:43 PM
  #167
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Only coach I would fire MT for would be Babcock or maybe Quennville but since pigs don't fly I don't see that happening

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05-12-2013, 10:47 PM
  #168
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MB never got Moen.
MB signed him to an extension last summer.

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05-12-2013, 11:06 PM
  #169
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First off, I just want to say that I think these are constructive discussions, which I enjoy. There's no need to call anyone clueless. I think a lot of people on here are intelligent and many of us happen to have differing opinions. And that's why these boards exist and are interesting.

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I haven't read one person say MT was without flaws.
You can't just throw out meaningless things without being called out on it though. If people are gonna say he got out coached and all they can come up with is ''we got exposed and failed to answer. We needed to crash the net more.'' then I'm gonna say they're clueless.
Especially when they agree this could have easily been 3-1 for the Habs.

You can be sick of hearing about injuries, so am I, doesn't make them any less important though.

It's not about shots. We controlled the pace during most of the game in Game 1-2-4. We outchanced them as well.
It's not really meaningless. Coaching is one facet of the larger game. In my view, you can be out-chancing another team but still be out-coached, just as you could be out-chancing yet be out-goaltended or out-muscled or what have you. It's great that the Habs out-chanced the Sens fairly consistently. But it's not great that they never adapted a system that simply wasn't getting results. They kept taking the same chances, the D pinching the same ways that were resulting in myriad odd-man rushes and few goals for. They consistently failed at getting players to the net in the offensive zone (and nobody is saying that Therrien didn't tell them to do that... that's silly. But it's his system, and his responsibility. If it were simply not being executed that would be one thing, but it really didn't seem like a significant enough part of the plan). MT made questionable personnel decisions that didn't work out, such as sitting Galchenyuk and over-playing lines that weren't getting results. And so on. I think these are legitimate points. Again, I'm not saying he's a brutal coach. I actually like what he did for the team this season. I just think he had a bad first-round like so much of the team did.

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The team is far from perfect, nobody ever denied that. We all want to improve our size on the wing and on the back end. But again, in no way does this mean Therrien got out coached. We don't have the team that can respond to missing the players i that went out. We're not talking about Travis Moen, Armstrong or Bouillon here.
I know it's tough for certain fans to do, but at some point you have to be realistic. Missing Emelin, Eller, Gionta, MaxPac, Prust, White and Price was going to affect us a lot.
No doubt about it. We clearly aren't deep enough yet to cope with the bodies lost. But it's still the coaches responsibility to respond to his team and adapt with the players he has. And as I laid out above, I don't think he did that.

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I didn't miss anything. All of these words are so easy to say when you're sitting behind a cpu screen with very little info as to how things actually operate.
When are they supposed to practice this new PP strategy? After Thursday night and before Friday's game? We played 5 games in 8 nights and a lot of players were banged up and fatigued.
And I don't know about feeding PK at the same spot. PK and Markov are very mobile on the point and constantly switch positions, they also change formations going from Diamond to box.
They had all season to work on it, and a lot of time down the stretch. It was a condensed schedule, but that doesn't absolve you from responsibility to make adjustments.

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I would have liked to see different line combos on the PP, and have been vocal about it all season. I like the good old way when even strength and pp lines were different.
I also think Bouillon or Gorges have no business playing on the 2nd wave.
Agreed.

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05-12-2013, 11:17 PM
  #170
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hahahahahhahaha


awful thread

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05-12-2013, 11:29 PM
  #171
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Also, meant to add that never scoring in the 3rd is hugely problematic. Clearly the team was not in the right place after 40, ever. Everyone will probably agree with that, especially in game 4, when they were in completely the wrong mode.

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05-12-2013, 11:32 PM
  #172
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How is this thread still going?
I came here to ask this very question.

MT has a two-year contact. Next year its his job to show this year wasn't a fluke and/or that he can adjust, not grow stale quickly to the players, and lose the lockerroom.

If he can't do this or he isn't very impressive, we can easily let him go and see who else is available.

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05-13-2013, 12:30 AM
  #173
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Can't believe we are discussing about Therrien's replacement after only 53 games??? Get real. This thread isn't going anywhere and Therrien did really good this year. We don't need a new coach, we just need less midgets and more toughness and that's not Therrien's job to provide that but Bergevin's one.

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05-13-2013, 03:02 AM
  #174
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I put forth my arguments and don't really feel like engaging in a boring back and forth quote orgy.

Millpool is right on the nose with everything he's saying, which is what I'm trying to say too: you can't blame everyone except the coach, it doesn't work that way. We were out-coached and unceremoniously dumped by game FIVE. That's on the coach as much as anyone else, including Bergevin who thought it wise to not pick up anyone and burn a fifth on a useless lump called Drewiskie.

Therrien did good this year but maybe his good isnt good enough for a contending team. He didnt or couldn't adapt (I don't know which is worse) and our performance suffers against teams who knew how to exploit it.

I loved the offensive output, hated the defensive play.

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05-13-2013, 08:47 AM
  #175
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First off, I just want to say that I think these are constructive discussions, which I enjoy. There's no need to call anyone clueless. I think a lot of people on here are intelligent and many of us happen to have differing opinions. And that's why these boards exist and are interesting.
That's fine, except some are clueless, but fine, I will restrain from name calling.

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Originally Posted by Millpool View Post
It's not really meaningless. Coaching is one facet of the larger game. In my view, you can be out-chancing another team but still be out-coached, just as you could be out-chancing yet be out-goaltended or out-muscled or what have you. It's great that the Habs out-chanced the Sens fairly consistently. But it's not great that they never adapted a system that simply wasn't getting results. They kept taking the same chances, the D pinching the same ways that were resulting in myriad odd-man rushes and few goals for. They consistently failed at getting players to the net in the offensive zone (and nobody is saying that Therrien didn't tell them to do that... that's silly. But it's his system, and his responsibility. If it were simply not being executed that would be one thing, but it really didn't seem like a significant enough part of the plan). MT made questionable personnel decisions that didn't work out, such as sitting Galchenyuk and over-playing lines that weren't getting results. And so on. I think these are legitimate points. Again, I'm not saying he's a brutal coach. I actually like what he did for the team this season. I just think he had a bad first-round like so much of the team did.
How can you possibly out play a team, and yet be out coached? That doesn't make any sense. If your team is playing better than its opponent, the reason for the loss is likely not the strategies used, after all you are getting more chances and controlling the play.
You are getting the match ups you want, you are employing the strategies you feel gets your team a chance to win. Some display of excellence by certain players are likely to be the reason why you would lose, like goaltending.

You're not gonna out chance a coach that is owning you. That's just not going to happen. Not sure in what world this makes sense, but it ain't the real one.

Being out muscled can be useless. There isn't too many teams that we'll out muscle, but that has little impact on the actual game if you chose not to partake in that style.
Being out goaled is exactly what happened here. We out chanced the Sens in Games 1-2-4, but Anderson outplayed Price. It doesn't mean Therrien couldn't have done certain things different, but I fail to see where MacLean owned Therrien.
I mean, MacLean saw his team get out chanced and outplayed, he saw the opponent carry most of the play, how did he adapt to stop that?? He relied on Anderson, and even he admitted it.

This wasn't a coaching battle.
Our strength coming into the POs was our depth. We had three 2nd lines basically.
We were one of the very few teams that had 8 players with 10G+. That was our big strength. A very key player for us was Eller, our most effective center in terms of production. He also added some size down the middle for us. He was injured 13min into the POs. That crippled our team right off the bat. We still dominated Ottawa though, but Anderson stood on his head stopping 27 shots in the 2nd period alone. But ya MacLean really schooled Therrien there.
By game 2, we were without Eller, MaxPac and Gionta. A huge blow to our depth. That's pretty much a top 6 line gone. Still, we were able to dominate Ottawa for the better part of game 2 and pulled the Win.
By game 5, we had a battered roster missing 6 regulars. That is 1/3rd of your line up, almost half of our forwards were injured, and you're trying to argue that Therrien didn't use the proper strategies to respond to the bodies we lost despite admitting we lacked the depth to handle those losses to begin with??? You do not make any sense.

The strategies you're wishing Therrien would have switched were creating chances. That's all you want from a strategy, to create chances for your team, after that it's up to your players to put the puck in the net and it isn't uncommon for goalies to stone opponents, often, which is what happened to us.
Our players tried to crash the net, but you have four players that are easily to toss aside in DD, Plek, Galla and Gionta. I don't think Cowen, Methot or Phillips are gonna have big issues clearing them from the front, and they didn't. MaxPac got a shoulder separation, so he will naturally avoid some contact and just won't be as physical.
Bourque was our only guy and he had a great series. Ryder disappeared into the abyss.
As I previously mentioned, Therrien did some mistakes, he isn't free of criticism, but being out coached is something else entirely.

Ottawa had the guys to defend us well, and then our advantage (depth) disappeared due to injuries. Still, we outplayed Ottawa through 3 of the first 4 games.

We don't have the top end talent to sustain such injuries, we just don't. You can have the best coach in the history of all sports combined, we're just not going to win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Millpool View Post
No doubt about it. We clearly aren't deep enough yet to cope with the bodies lost. But it's still the coaches responsibility to respond to his team and adapt with the players he has. And as I laid out above, I don't think he did that.
That doesn't make much sense. On one side you agree that we don't have the depth to cope with such important losses, but on the other you say the coach failed to cope with our injuries. You just admitted we don't have the depth to deal with them, so how do you suggest he responds to them then??? Again, in what world does this make sense?

We were not going to win this series with 6 regulars out. No team aside from Pittsburgh could perhaps pull this off.

Again, this isn't a coaching issue, it's a depth issue. You have to be able to differentiate things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Millpool View Post
They had all season to work on it, and a lot of time down the stretch. It was a condensed schedule, but that doesn't absolve you from responsibility to make adjustments.
Not sure I follow...
We finished 5th on the PP this year with the two most productive Dmen in the NHL on the PP.

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