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New Arena deal agreed to by city and Katz group:mod warning #616

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Old
05-11-2013, 11:51 PM
  #951
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Originally Posted by Halibut View Post
Sure but at what cost?

I've said it for quite awhile now but there is a deal to be made here but it shouldnt be one where the city pays for everything and Katz reaps all the reward. Just look at your conservative estimate, Katz averages 10 mil/year in profit and the city has to pay him $2 million a year for the first 10 to advertise? Shouldnt they get free advertising after buying him an arena?

Having the team in the city is a benefit for the city we can agree on that but Katz is getting side benefits off of this as well. He stands to make huge gains on the surrounding developments, likely ones that dwarf what he'll make on the hockey team. I think he has more to lose if he sells the team or moves it than if he ends up paying a bit more on this deal. The city shouldnt cave to his demands and he should be open to paying his share of the $55 million that hasnt been found yet. There are more palatable options out there, like making it contingent on how much the CRL generates.

Everyone gets too polarized about this and want to pick one side or the other but that's not what deal making is about, it's about compromise and finding something both sides can agree on.
well, fair enough. i agree it is distasteful to see Katz continually trying to squeeze a public the way he would handle a takeover with London Drugs.

His needing all the profits from the arena is probably the part that bothers most people. I believe he needs this to compete in the NHL. this is more a function of the messed of economy that is pro-hockey then anything else. I don't believe katz is trying to bamboozle us, he is in a league inwhich many owners take monies from their other businesses and over-pay players with said monies. the actually revenues of the NHL do not warrant 2mil/year for the Mark Fistrics of the world.

sadly, if we want NHL in our outpost, small city (Edmonton is the Omsk of North America) we will have to give Katz a sweet deal. we can haggle a bit and try the best we can, but in the end, we will not get a 50-50 split. just my opinion

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05-12-2013, 03:08 PM
  #952
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well, fair enough. i agree it is distasteful to see Katz continually trying to squeeze a public the way he would handle a takeover with London Drugs.

His needing all the profits from the arena is probably the part that bothers most people. I believe he needs this to compete in the NHL. this is more a function of the messed of economy that is pro-hockey then anything else. I don't believe katz is trying to bamboozle us, he is in a league inwhich many owners take monies from their other businesses and over-pay players with said monies. the actually revenues of the NHL do not warrant 2mil/year for the Mark Fistrics of the world.

sadly, if we want NHL in our outpost, small city (Edmonton is the Omsk of North America) we will have to give Katz a sweet deal. we can haggle a bit and try the best we can, but in the end, we will not get a 50-50 split. just my opinion
He was just part of a labour war over a $3.3 billion pie. A second within ten years designed to implement a salary cap to ensure parity cost wise for all teams. It is irrelevant what Edmonton pays Fistric a strange point you may several times. All teams have a cost floor and ceiling. How they choose to distribute the wealth their prerogative. That they can't help themselves to overspend is a recurring issue and no reason public purse should be involved.

Your point is beyond flimsy for subsidizing a $3.3 billion entertainment industry.

Billionaires are the first to decry the free enterprise system when cutting jobs and gaming the stock market. Sadly they are also first to manipulate public will for subsides such as arena debates in North America.

Katz has one of the most profitable NHL franchise in monopoly conditions on the backs of ticket buyers. Now he's being given the keys to the kingdom with abroad new arena, ridiculous concessions including all revenue streams for all events therein inclusive of naming rights, other advertising, concessions, and parking. I say again for ALL events not just Oilers hockey.

There is no risk to him and anyone who thinks über competitive markets like Seattle would bare these high ticket prices and sell merchandise like Edmonton are simply delusional.

Katz stalked the previous ownership to buy this team. He knows the existing ROI and public sentiment around this team to curry up an amazing revenue machine based on the gullibility that other municipalities have been shown to do.

And we should place the issue at the feet of hockey scrubs like Mark Fistric trying to carve out his value on the short time he has to earn ludacrise money as an 'entertainer'?

A new rink may be needed. A new rink for the prime tenant who gains all control of revenue and its operations is just bizarre.

EDIT: a takeover of London Drugs would be more contentious as private shareholders fight tooth and nail for direct return on their investment. For an arena, wrapped around a city's virtual blind love of its sports team, he's waged a PR battle on this sentimentality with one part threat to move, fear of being unable to compete, and spurious economic value the team brings this city and non measurable prestige for having an NHL hockey team.


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05-12-2013, 03:25 PM
  #953
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He was just part of a labour war over a $3.3 billion pie. A second within ten years designed to implement a salary cap to ensure parity cost wise for all teams. It is irrelevant what Edmonton pays Fistric a strange point you may several times. All teams have a cost floor and ceiling. How they choose to distribute the wealth their prerogative. That they can't help themselves to overspend is a recurring issue and no reason public purse should be involved.

Your point is beyond flimsy for subsidizing a $3.3 billion entertainment industry.

Billionaires are the first to decry the free enterprise system when cutting jobs and gaming the stock market. Sadly they are also first to manipulate public will for subsides such as arena debates in North America.

Katz has one of the most profitable NHL franchise in monopoly conditions on the backs of ticket buyers. Now he's being given the keys to the kingdom with abroad new arena, ridiculous concessions including all revenue streams for all events therein inclusive of naming rights, other advertising, concessions, and parking. I say again for ALL events not just Oilers hockey.

There is no risk to him and anyone who thinks über competitive markets like Seattle would bare these high ticket prices and sell merchandise like Edmonton are simply delusional.

Katz stalked the previous ownership to buy this team. He knows the existing ROI and public sentiment around this team to curry up an amazing revenue machine based on the gullibility that other municipalities have been shown to do.

And we should place the issue at the feet of hockey scrubs like Mark Fistric trying to carve out his value on the short time he has to earn ludacrise money as an 'entertainer'?

A new rink may be needed. A new rink for the prime tenant who gains all control of revenue and its operations is just bizarre.

EDIT: a takeover of London Drugs would be more contentious as private shareholders fight tooth and nail for direct return on their investment. For an arena, wrapped around a city's virtual blind love of its sports team, he's waged a PR battle on this sentimentality with one part threat to move, fear of being unable to compete, and spurious economic value the team brings this city and non measurable prestige for having an NHL hockey team.

Something is generally not considered bizarre when it is the norm. And this is the norm in todays sporting world

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05-12-2013, 06:09 PM
  #954
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Whether you agree or disagree with his stance, Replacement makes well thought out and educated responses. Can you say the same?
forgot this

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05-12-2013, 07:03 PM
  #955
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Something is generally not considered bizarre when it is the norm. And this is the norm in todays sporting world
Well it is bizarre, perhaps we've just become accustomed to it in the pro sports world.

For an owner fronting zero bucks into a 600M arena, having all revenues from all events and getting stipends on top of that like naming rights, 2M payback per year for advertizing and not paying a dime of taxes on facility because he's not the *owner* is a little bizarre. Considering a hockey and entertainment mad market that promises to keep the arena buzzing with gate revenue and ticket sales of a magnitude seldom seen anywhere on the planet katz is making out like a bandit..

Too bad Katz didn't get the 6M annual subsidy he was demanding on top of this as he wasn't yet satisfied bending the city over. Oh gawd, how will Katz survive this deal..

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05-12-2013, 07:13 PM
  #956
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Well it is bizarre, perhaps we've just become accustomed to it in the pro sports world.

For an owner fronting zero bucks into a 600M arena, having all revenues from all events and getting stipends on top of that like naming rights, 2M payback per year for advertizing and not paying a dime of taxes on facility because he's not the *owner* is a little bizarre. Considering a hockey and entertainment mad market that promises to keep the arena buzzing with gate revenue and ticket sales of a magnitude seldom seen anywhere on the planet katz is making out like a bandit..

Too bad Katz didn't get the 6M annual subsidy he was demanding on top of this as he wasn't yet satisfied bending the city over. Oh gawd, how will Katz survive this deal..
You can't guarantee that gate revenue for the next 30 years. What happens if in 5 years Trudeau gets in power and thinks its a good idea to shut down the oilfield due to green house gases and pollution? What if all the oil companies feel they can get better deals elsewhere. Especially when you consider the US just opened up a huge part of North Dakota that used to be protected for Oil exploration. If alberta starts investing now in other industries besides Oil we may be able to weather a storm like the above but right now were putting all our bags in one basket and if that basket up and leaves the team and the new arena would have a hard time surviving IMO. Katz wants a good deal on this thing for that reason, sure he'll make money now but if there's ever a downturn then he'll be able to use that money to get by and not lose the team.

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05-12-2013, 08:40 PM
  #957
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You can't guarantee that gate revenue for the next 30 years. What happens if in 5 years Trudeau gets in power and thinks its a good idea to shut down the oilfield due to green house gases and pollution? What if all the oil companies feel they can get better deals elsewhere. Especially when you consider the US just opened up a huge part of North Dakota that used to be protected for Oil exploration. If alberta starts investing now in other industries besides Oil we may be able to weather a storm like the above but right now were putting all our bags in one basket and if that basket up and leaves the team and the new arena would have a hard time surviving IMO. Katz wants a good deal on this thing for that reason, sure he'll make money now but if there's ever a downturn then he'll be able to use that money to get by and not lose the team.
Gosh that's a lot of IF's ... may as well throw in that rogue comet we'll need Bruce Willis and Ben Affleck to stop.

That said, should all of your hypothetical's come to pass, the last person to worry about would be a billionaire and his no risk capital project.

Under such extreme conditions one has to think we will all have bigger concern for how we utilize our limited discretionary income.

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05-12-2013, 10:35 PM
  #958
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Gosh that's a lot of IF's ... may as well throw in that rogue comet we'll need Bruce Willis and Ben Affleck to stop.

That said, should all of your hypothetical's come to pass, the last person to worry about would be a billionaire and his no risk capital project.

Under such extreme conditions one has to think we will all have bigger concern for how we utilize our limited discretionary income.
Look at what's happened to Alberta in the last 30 years. People were losing their houses because of the National energy deal and high interest rates, the Oilsands were almost shut down in the early to mid 90's because it wasn't cost effective enough. Yes the last 10 years have been good to albertans but to expect that to continue for the next 30 years is foolish and people should start preparing for difficult financial times that may be coming.

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05-13-2013, 12:36 AM
  #959
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Look at what's happened to Alberta in the last 30 years. People were losing their houses because of the National energy deal and high interest rates, the Oilsands were almost shut down in the early to mid 90's because it wasn't cost effective enough. Yes the last 10 years have been good to albertans but to expect that to continue for the next 30 years is foolish and people should start preparing for difficult financial times that may be coming.
Where is his risk? Whats his downside? Where is there a better option?
None. None . None.

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05-13-2013, 01:29 AM
  #960
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Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines View Post
He was just part of a labour war over a $3.3 billion pie. A second within ten years designed to implement a salary cap to ensure parity cost wise for all teams. It is irrelevant what Edmonton pays Fistric a strange point you may several times. All teams have a cost floor and ceiling. How they choose to distribute the wealth their prerogative. That they can't help themselves to overspend is a recurring issue and no reason public purse should be involved.

Your point is beyond flimsy for subsidizing a $3.3 billion entertainment industry.

Billionaires are the first to decry the free enterprise system when cutting jobs and gaming the stock market. Sadly they are also first to manipulate public will for subsides such as arena debates in North America.

Katz has one of the most profitable NHL franchise in monopoly conditions on the backs of ticket buyers. Now he's being given the keys to the kingdom with abroad new arena, ridiculous concessions including all revenue streams for all events therein inclusive of naming rights, other advertising, concessions, and parking. I say again for ALL events not just Oilers hockey.

There is no risk to him and anyone who thinks über competitive markets like Seattle would bare these high ticket prices and sell merchandise like Edmonton are simply delusional.

Katz stalked the previous ownership to buy this team. He knows the existing ROI and public sentiment around this team to curry up an amazing revenue machine based on the gullibility that other municipalities have been shown to do.

And we should place the issue at the feet of hockey scrubs like Mark Fistric trying to carve out his value on the short time he has to earn ludacrise money as an 'entertainer'?

A new rink may be needed. A new rink for the prime tenant who gains all control of revenue and its operations is just bizarre.

EDIT: a takeover of London Drugs would be more contentious as private shareholders fight tooth and nail for direct return on their investment. For an arena, wrapped around a city's virtual blind love of its sports team, he's waged a PR battle on this sentimentality with one part threat to move, fear of being unable to compete, and spurious economic value the team brings this city and non measurable prestige for having an NHL hockey team.
The salary cap isn't the great equalizer the league makes it out to be. Unfortunately you still need to generate revenue to cover the salary. That means that certain markets, such as Philadelphia, NY, Boston, Toronto, have a distinct advantage when it comes to profitability. This allows them to spend to the cap freely, and at levels that would make small market teams cringe. The salary cap helps offset this, but as we've seen since the last lockout, the cap will continue to rise.

The Oilers might be making a profit now, and have been for the previous 6 years or so but that does not guarantee that this franchise will continue to profit. Our salary has been kept quite low during the rebuild, and as you should know, profit is what's left over after your costs have been covered by your revenue. Costs include salary.

To illustrate a point, if the Oilers right now in Rexall are making a $10M profit with a $40M payroll and the salary cap is raised to $50M, that means if they want to compete with the other teams such as Vancouver, Toronto, Chicago or Boston, they have a couple options: Use the model the EIG used, IE field a bunch of players with the most bang for the buck and watch as talent leaves as we wallow away in 1st round purgatory, or spend to retain that talent and remain competitive. If we don't move forward, eventually the cap floor will be unprofitable.

And that's what this all really comes down to. This notion that Edmonton is some lucrative money-making market where you make money hand over fist is a delusion. We're a small market that is still utilizing a 1980's NHL economic model that is just not sustainable now and assuredly not 10 years from now.

You might not like the idea that Katz has the control over all the revenue streams associated with this project, but that's just the reality for an NHL city in this day and age. No longer is the NHL a backwater 2nd rate league like it was in the 80's. It's becoming huge and it's going to be squeezing a lot of tiny markets like Edmonton's out in the very near future if things continue the way they are.

At the end of the day, it comes down to some very stark realities. Either the City of Edmonton as a whole ponies up for a good sized portion of the arena or the Oilers are literally on relocation notice. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If Katz cannot obtain a feasible economic structure suited to match the economic reality the present-and-future NHL, he'll sell the team. And he even said as much when he bought it off of EIG. That the future of the Oilers hinges on the construction of a new arena.

Edmonton has to decide if they want to move forward as a city with the Oilers as the NHL moves from a 2nd tier to a 1st tier sport. If you feel the Oilers are not worth having in Edmonton, then yeah the arena deal stinks. But all you're doing is damning this city to a slow death. Face it, the Oilers are the biggest thing Edmonton has going for it. And for once the Oilers and the new arena are poised to offer more than just a world class arena, but a catalyst for modernizing the city as a whole. It's really a great time to be an Edmontonian because backwards anti-progress thinking such as yours and others on this board are on the way out after 30 long years. Can't wait, personally.

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05-13-2013, 01:47 AM
  #961
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Where is his risk? Whats his downside? Where is there a better option?
None. None . None.
What other current owners in the league have paid for their own arena? What teams currently have free rent in the arenas? And there are options that could potentially be better then edmonton, it really disturbs me the attitude that edmontonians have that there's no place better for a hockey team then here. Especially when we're the most northern major professional sports team in North America. The risk comes when the economy totally tanks and people and business can no longer afford to go to hockey games here in edmonton, but Katz has to continue to pay huge salaries that were signed prior to a drop in the economy. If there were semi guaranteed contracts like the NFL I'm guessing Katz and NHL owners in general would need less support from the governments at all levels.

Edit: It should also be mentioned that TD is projecting that the loonie will drop to 90 cents this year. If it goes down any more then that we'd be a small market team again and wouldn't be able to pay to the cap with the current agreement.

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05-13-2013, 01:49 AM
  #962
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Edmonton has to decide if they want to move forward as a city with the Oilers as the NHL moves from a 2nd tier to a 1st tier sport. If you feel the Oilers are not worth having in Edmonton, then yeah the arena deal stinks. But all you're doing is damning this city to a slow death. Face it, the Oilers are the biggest thing Edmonton has going for it. And for once the Oilers and the new arena are poised to offer more than just a world class arena, but a catalyst for modernizing the city as a whole. It's really a great time to be an Edmontonian because backwards anti-progress thinking such as yours and others on this board are on the way out after 30 long years. Can't wait, personally.
Wow, some of the silliest stuff I've ever read on this board. What absolute claptrap.

You pull out every cliche in the book.

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05-13-2013, 01:53 AM
  #963
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What other current owners in the league have paid for their own arena? What teams currently have free rent in the arenas? And there are options that could potentially be better then edmonton, it really disturbs me the attitude that edmontonians have that there's no place better for a hockey team then here. Especially when we're the most northern major professional sports team in North America. The risk comes when the economy totally tanks and people and business can no longer afford to go to hockey games here in edmonton, but Katz has to continue to pay huge salaries that were signed prior to a drop in the economy. If there were semi guaranteed contracts like the NFL I'm guessing Katz and NHL owners in general would need less support from the governments at all levels.
You keep banging the same drum here. So what if the Edmonton economy completely collapses in worst possible scenarios. IF that were to happen do you think for a moment that a non relocation deal would be worth the ink its printed on?

Like any owner in any pro sport in NA Katz would be looking for concessions/renegotiation/kickbacks etc as he cries about how untenable it is in the market and threatens to sell or fold the club unless he gets his way.

This ironclad 35yr agreement to keep the club in Edmonton is junk. Not worth anything and theres no such thing as a guarantee when it comes to pro sports contractual hijinx. The general history of pro sports in NA is owners always holding out their hands for more and more.

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05-13-2013, 02:15 AM
  #964
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You keep banging the same drum here. So what if the Edmonton economy completely collapses in worst possible scenarios. IF that were to happen do you think for a moment that a non relocation deal would be worth the ink its printed on?

Like any owner in any pro sport in NA Katz would be looking for concessions/renegotiation/kickbacks etc as he cries about how untenable it is in the market and threatens to sell or fold the club unless he gets his way.

This ironclad 35yr agreement to keep the club in Edmonton is junk. Not worth anything and theres no such thing as a guarantee when it comes to pro sports contractual hijinx. The general history of pro sports in NA is owners always holding out their hands for more and more.
It would obviously have to be a massive economic downturn for him to ever consider moving the team. And I highly doubt the NHL would let him move the team without giving the market a chance to rebound. For example lets say that someone is elected in the states who really hates the effect the tar sands is having on the environment and blocks all crude coming from alberta. Obviously our economy would take a massive hit but I think the NHL would keep the team around for a minimum of 5 years to see if it would recover. Hell they kept the team in Atlanta a place they had no ties to for 10 years longer then they should have. If we have a brand new arena the choice to move becomes a lot harder. Also what is your recommendation if we don't build a new arena? And don't get me wrong because I'm all for a better deal but Katz really does have all the cards in this one. Also I think the provincial government should step up to the plate as this facility will be used by all northern alberta residents not just edmontonians. I feel the 100M from Katz, 200M from Provincial, and 200M from the city would be a fair compromise but that's just my opinion.

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05-13-2013, 10:48 AM
  #965
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The salary cap isn't the great equalizer the league makes it out to be. Unfortunately you still need to generate revenue to cover the salary. That means that certain markets, such as Philadelphia, NY, Boston, Toronto, have a distinct advantage when it comes to profitability. This allows them to spend to the cap freely, and at levels that would make small market teams cringe. The salary cap helps offset this, but as we've seen since the last lockout, the cap will continue to rise.

The Oilers might be making a profit now, and have been for the previous 6 years or so but that does not guarantee that this franchise will continue to profit. Our salary has been kept quite low during the rebuild, and as you should know, profit is what's left over after your costs have been covered by your revenue. Costs include salary.

To illustrate a point, if the Oilers right now in Rexall are making a $10M profit with a $40M payroll and the salary cap is raised to $50M, that means if they want to compete with the other teams such as Vancouver, Toronto, Chicago or Boston, they have a couple options: Use the model the EIG used, IE field a bunch of players with the most bang for the buck and watch as talent leaves as we wallow away in 1st round purgatory, or spend to retain that talent and remain competitive. If we don't move forward, eventually the cap floor will be unprofitable.

And that's what this all really comes down to. This notion that Edmonton is some lucrative money-making market where you make money hand over fist is a delusion. We're a small market that is still utilizing a 1980's NHL economic model that is just not sustainable now and assuredly not 10 years from now.

You might not like the idea that Katz has the control over all the revenue streams associated with this project, but that's just the reality for an NHL city in this day and age. No longer is the NHL a backwater 2nd rate league like it was in the 80's. It's becoming huge and it's going to be squeezing a lot of tiny markets like Edmonton's out in the very near future if things continue the way they are.

At the end of the day, it comes down to some very stark realities. Either the City of Edmonton as a whole ponies up for a good sized portion of the arena or the Oilers are literally on relocation notice. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If Katz cannot obtain a feasible economic structure suited to match the economic reality the present-and-future NHL, he'll sell the team. And he even said as much when he bought it off of EIG. That the future of the Oilers hinges on the construction of a new arena.

Edmonton has to decide if they want to move forward as a city with the Oilers as the NHL moves from a 2nd tier to a 1st tier sport. If you feel the Oilers are not worth having in Edmonton, then yeah the arena deal stinks. But all you're doing is damning this city to a slow death. Face it, the Oilers are the biggest thing Edmonton has going for it. And for once the Oilers and the new arena are poised to offer more than just a world class arena, but a catalyst for modernizing the city as a whole. It's really a great time to be an Edmontonian because backwards anti-progress thinking such as yours and others on this board are on the way out after 30 long years. Can't wait, personally.
Excellent! Well written and some of the more reasonable statements I've read in this thread...

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05-13-2013, 11:56 AM
  #966
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The salary cap isn't the great equalizer the league makes it out to be. Unfortunately you still need to generate revenue to cover the salary. That means that certain markets, such as Philadelphia, NY, Boston, Toronto, have a distinct advantage when it comes to profitability. This allows them to spend to the cap freely, and at levels that would make small market teams cringe. The salary cap helps offset this, but as we've seen since the last lockout, the cap will continue to rise.

The Oilers might be making a profit now, and have been for the previous 6 years or so but that does not guarantee that this franchise will continue to profit. Our salary has been kept quite low during the rebuild, and as you should know, profit is what's left over after your costs have been covered by your revenue. Costs include salary.

To illustrate a point, if the Oilers right now in Rexall are making a $10M profit with a $40M payroll and the salary cap is raised to $50M, that means if they want to compete with the other teams such as Vancouver, Toronto, Chicago or Boston, they have a couple options: Use the model the EIG used, IE field a bunch of players with the most bang for the buck and watch as talent leaves as we wallow away in 1st round purgatory, or spend to retain that talent and remain competitive. If we don't move forward, eventually the cap floor will be unprofitable.

And that's what this all really comes down to. This notion that Edmonton is some lucrative money-making market where you make money hand over fist is a delusion. We're a small market that is still utilizing a 1980's NHL economic model that is just not sustainable now and assuredly not 10 years from now.

You might not like the idea that Katz has the control over all the revenue streams associated with this project, but that's just the reality for an NHL city in this day and age. No longer is the NHL a backwater 2nd rate league like it was in the 80's. It's becoming huge and it's going to be squeezing a lot of tiny markets like Edmonton's out in the very near future if things continue the way they are.

At the end of the day, it comes down to some very stark realities. Either the City of Edmonton as a whole ponies up for a good sized portion of the arena or the Oilers are literally on relocation notice. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If Katz cannot obtain a feasible economic structure suited to match the economic reality the present-and-future NHL, he'll sell the team. And he even said as much when he bought it off of EIG. That the future of the Oilers hinges on the construction of a new arena.

Edmonton has to decide if they want to move forward as a city with the Oilers as the NHL moves from a 2nd tier to a 1st tier sport. If you feel the Oilers are not worth having in Edmonton, then yeah the arena deal stinks. But all you're doing is damning this city to a slow death. Face it, the Oilers are the biggest thing Edmonton has going for it. And for once the Oilers and the new arena are poised to offer more than just a world class arena, but a catalyst for modernizing the city as a whole. It's really a great time to be an Edmontonian because backwards anti-progress thinking such as yours and others on this board are on the way out after 30 long years. Can't wait, personally.
This is a masterpiece of sound logical thinking.


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05-13-2013, 12:51 PM
  #967
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The salary cap isn't the great equalizer the league makes it out to be. Unfortunately you still need to generate revenue to cover the salary. That means that certain markets, such as Philadelphia, NY, Boston, Toronto, have a distinct advantage when it comes to profitability. This allows them to spend to the cap freely, and at levels that would make small market teams cringe. The salary cap helps offset this, but as we've seen since the last lockout, the cap will continue to rise.

The Oilers might be making a profit now, and have been for the previous 6 years or so but that does not guarantee that this franchise will continue to profit. Our salary has been kept quite low during the rebuild, and as you should know, profit is what's left over after your costs have been covered by your revenue. Costs include salary.

To illustrate a point, if the Oilers right now in Rexall are making a $10M profit with a $40M payroll and the salary cap is raised to $50M, that means if they want to compete with the other teams such as Vancouver, Toronto, Chicago or Boston, they have a couple options: Use the model the EIG used, IE field a bunch of players with the most bang for the buck and watch as talent leaves as we wallow away in 1st round purgatory, or spend to retain that talent and remain competitive. If we don't move forward, eventually the cap floor will be unprofitable.

And that's what this all really comes down to. This notion that Edmonton is some lucrative money-making market where you make money hand over fist is a delusion. We're a small market that is still utilizing a 1980's NHL economic model that is just not sustainable now and assuredly not 10 years from now.

You might not like the idea that Katz has the control over all the revenue streams associated with this project, but that's just the reality for an NHL city in this day and age. No longer is the NHL a backwater 2nd rate league like it was in the 80's. It's becoming huge and it's going to be squeezing a lot of tiny markets like Edmonton's out in the very near future if things continue the way they are.

At the end of the day, it comes down to some very stark realities. Either the City of Edmonton as a whole ponies up for a good sized portion of the arena or the Oilers are literally on relocation notice. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If Katz cannot obtain a feasible economic structure suited to match the economic reality the present-and-future NHL, he'll sell the team. And he even said as much when he bought it off of EIG. That the future of the Oilers hinges on the construction of a new arena.

Edmonton has to decide if they want to move forward as a city with the Oilers as the NHL moves from a 2nd tier to a 1st tier sport. If you feel the Oilers are not worth having in Edmonton, then yeah the arena deal stinks. But all you're doing is damning this city to a slow death. Face it, the Oilers are the biggest thing Edmonton has going for it. And for once the Oilers and the new arena are poised to offer more than just a world class arena, but a catalyst for modernizing the city as a whole. It's really a great time to be an Edmontonian because backwards anti-progress thinking such as yours and others on this board are on the way out after 30 long years. Can't wait, personally.
Nonsense you are simply totally buying into the woe is me they are going to relocate so we have to bribe them with public funds to make sure they don't move. As Replacement said in another post it doesn't matter what happens now because if things do sewer the NHL: team will be coming back hat in hand.

I would say the bigger concern about an economic downturn is all the rosy predictions of how much development and thus tax revenue the city will get.

You simply can't have it both ways and no matter what the economy does the city is still way more at risk than the hockey team. The city is fronting all most everything so if things go south and we don't get the kind of development everything is being based on the city loses 1st and foremost.

I'll make one very very easy precondition righto now, as easy as the prediction made a year or more ago that provincial infra money would be used for the missing $100 million.

All of this development will start off slower than hoped and the city will have to give 'incentives' for people wanting to develop in the way of lower taxes.

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05-13-2013, 01:06 PM
  #968
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Nonsense you are simply totally buying into the woe is me they are going to relocate so we have to bribe them with public funds to make sure they don't move. As Replacement said in another post it doesn't matter what happens now because if things do sewer the NHL: team will be coming back hat in hand.
I would say the bigger concern about an economic downturn is all the rosy predictions of how much development and thus tax revenue the city will get.

You simply can't have it both ways and no matter what the economy does the city is still way more at risk than the hockey team. The city is fronting all most everything so if things go south and we don't get the kind of development everything is being based on the city loses 1st and foremost.

I'll make one very very easy precondition righto now, as easy as the prediction made a year or more ago that provincial infra money would be used for the missing $100 million.

All of this development will start off slower than hoped and the city will have to give 'incentives' for people wanting to develop in the way of lower taxes.
I can't believe any reasonable thinking person would actually believe that, let alone write it.
Perhaps in 10-15 years after a new arena is built....by some anonymous benefactor of course...

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05-13-2013, 01:12 PM
  #969
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So for all the naysayers, what's the alternative? Can you present any viable solutions other than "sucking it up" in a building that is 40+ years old?

NIMBY continues to get in the way of so much in this city. You'd think we'd learned our lesson multiple times over already.

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05-13-2013, 01:21 PM
  #970
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Nonsense you are simply totally buying into the woe is me they are going to relocate so we have to bribe them with public funds to make sure they don't move. As Replacement said in another post it doesn't matter what happens now because if things do sewer the NHL: team will be coming back hat in hand.

I would say the bigger concern about an economic downturn is all the rosy predictions of how much development and thus tax revenue the city will get.

You simply can't have it both ways and no matter what the economy does the city is still way more at risk than the hockey team. The city is fronting all most everything so if things go south and we don't get the kind of development everything is being based on the city loses 1st and foremost.

I'll make one very very easy precondition righto now, as easy as the prediction made a year or more ago that provincial infra money would be used for the missing $100 million.

All of this development will start off slower than hoped and the city will have to give 'incentives' for people wanting to develop in the way of lower taxes.
again, where will this new team play?

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05-13-2013, 01:25 PM
  #971
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I can't believe any reasonable thinking person would actually believe that, let alone write it.
Perhaps in 10-15 years after a new arena is built....by some anonymous benefactor of course...
Past history is often a good indicator of future behavior.

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05-13-2013, 01:29 PM
  #972
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So for all the naysayers, what's the alternative? Can you present any viable solutions other than "sucking it up" in a building that is 40+ years old?

NIMBY continues to get in the way of so much in this city. You'd think we'd learned our lesson multiple times over already.
I would dare say that almost all of the naysayers on this forum want a new arena. I would say that almost all of the naysayers are willing to try and make it as easy as possible for the Oilers and their owner to do well and make money.

The naysayers are simply saying that the deal as it was, before the missing 100 million was a massively gold plated deal for the Oilers with almost no risk to the team and almost all the risk on the city.

There comes a point where you have to look at a deal and be realistic about the priorities of the city as a whole.

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05-13-2013, 01:30 PM
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again, where will this new team play?

Perhaps I didn't communicative my point well in that post. Even if we build the new arena and give katz all he is looking for now, if the economy sewers he will be coming back hat in hand looking for help.

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05-13-2013, 01:33 PM
  #974
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Perhaps I didn't communicative my point well in that post. Even if we build the new arena and give katz all he is looking for now, if the economy sewers he will be coming back hat in hand looking for help.
He will?

Do you anything to substantiate this fact, other than the "Katz is the Bogeyman" theory?

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05-13-2013, 01:35 PM
  #975
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Perhaps I didn't communicative my point well in that post. Even if we build the new arena and give katz all he is looking for now, if the economy sewers he will be coming back hat in hand looking for help.
And at that point you tell him that there will be no help coming from the government and that he needs to find other avenues to cover those losses. This is why it's crucial to have a lengthy agreement in place that if it gets built that the team cannot move.

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