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Winnipeg girls win right to play on boys' hockey team

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Old
09-27-2006, 11:32 AM
  #101
puttinonthefOIL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph View Post
The thing about making these kinds of comparisons to boys sports is the assumption that boys sports and girls sports are equal, which they are not. There are far more options for boys than girls, as well as far more funding. Generally speaking in high school, there are fewer sports for girls to choose from, fewer levels of play, and fewer outside options beyond the school system. As such, it's far easier to exhaust one's options.
Perhaps I'm thinking too much about my own HS, but in my case opportunities to participate in HS sports was about equal for both boys and girls. While the level of competition wasn't always as great in all the girls sports, the opportunity to play was there. Some sports for girls were very competitive and played at a high level (volleyball, basketball, soccer) and some were not, just like some of the boys sports.

These girls were given the opportunity to play hockey, in my mind the school has done what it can. I don't know all the specifics of their situation, but I find it hard to believe these girls didn't have an avenue to pursure their athletic goals. Someone else here posted that they were able to make their provincial mens lacrosse team (which by the way, I think is great for them... a provincial team's only goal should be fielding the best possible team... which is not necessarily the case for school teams). So if they could do that, could they not try-out for a provincial girls hockey team or some other higher-level league outside the school system?

As many have said here, the separation of boys and girls sports is done for the benefit of girls overall (to ensure high levels of participation). While allowing talented girls to play on boys teams is better for those individuals, it is worse for girls sports overall. The overall goal a public school system's sports program should be increasing participation, not necesarily providing individuals with the "best" situation for their own development.


Last edited by puttinonthefOIL: 09-27-2006 at 11:59 AM.
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Old
09-27-2006, 12:08 PM
  #102
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Anyone imagining that this might turn into league A and league B now instead of a league of men and a league of women? If the best women go play mens hockey, shouldnt that let less quality men play with the women? If that happens, the league of women will no longer be just women playin then(because I am more then sure men in general have more a drive to play sports then women(although that means nothing to quality the women will play, just that more men probably play hockey then women)) lesser quality men playin for the girls, then more and more guys go and play since women can play with the men, why not men with the women? So now we have 5-8 women playing high quality league A hockey and now 5-8 women now playing womens hockey since it's league B since why can't the men play there?

Big mistake, dumb girls in this case(not that girls are dumb, just those 2)

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09-27-2006, 01:58 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Big mistake, dumb girls in this case(not that girls are dumb, just those 2)
They're not dumb. They got $3500 each and private coaching at the expense of a non-profit organization. One could wonder if they even thought they had a chance of making the boys team. They didnt want to play on the joke womans team and ended up with private coaching and cash instead.

Doesnt sound like dumb to me. A few other words could be used though.

I wonder if they will donate their settlement and coaching time to the womans hockey program? It would seem like the right thing to do if they were trying to blaze a trail for future female players.

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09-27-2006, 03:17 PM
  #104
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If you can't take the ice, get back in the kitchen

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09-27-2006, 03:46 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepOrange View Post
If you can't take the ice, get back in the kitchen

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Old
09-27-2006, 06:21 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by DeepOrange View Post
If you can't take the ice, get back in the kitchen
I believe its, quit your *****in and get back in the kitchen

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Old
09-27-2006, 07:00 PM
  #107
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If you can't take the ice, get back in the kitchen
Pure gold.


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09-27-2006, 07:50 PM
  #108
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If nothing else, maybe these girls will learn not to burn their bridges. It's going to be tough skating with the girls team now that they publicly announced that the team sucks.

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Old
09-28-2006, 08:55 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuttinOnTheFoil View Post
Perhaps I'm thinking too much about my own HS, but in my case opportunities to participate in HS sports was about equal for both boys and girls. While the level of competition wasn't always as great in all the girls sports, the opportunity to play was there. Some sports for girls were very competitive and played at a high level (volleyball, basketball, soccer) and some were not, just like some of the boys sports.

These girls were given the opportunity to play hockey, in my mind the school has done what it can. I don't know all the specifics of their situation, but I find it hard to believe these girls didn't have an avenue to pursure their athletic goals. Someone else here posted that they were able to make their provincial mens lacrosse team (which by the way, I think is great for them... a provincial team's only goal should be fielding the best possible team... which is not necessarily the case for school teams). So if they could do that, could they not try-out for a provincial girls hockey team or some other higher-level league outside the school system?

As many have said here, the separation of boys and girls sports is done for the benefit of girls overall (to ensure high levels of participation). While allowing talented girls to play on boys teams is better for those individuals, it is worse for girls sports overall. The overall goal a public school system's sports program should be increasing participation, not necesarily providing individuals with the "best" situation for their own development.
Keep in mind, I'm not really talking about these girls situation, but more trying to point out flaws in some of the kneejerk reactionary posts to this. I have no idea what is actually available to these two girls beyond school sports, or even at their school.

However, at well funded high schools, what you describe is not all that unusual. But many schools are not so well funded, and when the difficult decisions have to be made, girls sports get the axe long before boys' sports, usually leaving a disproportionate level of the quality and variety. To be fair, boys' sports often generate money for the school, so I can hardly blame the school's here. But it does leave the girls with fewer options and usually with worse options.

Though, I don't know if I agree that allowing girls to try out for boys' sports makes all of girl sports worse, especially in a sport like hockey where a person can dominate on the puck while they're on the ice. Playing hockey where one or two people are so disproportionately better than everyone else can often take the fun, competition and teamwork elements out of the game (all the benefits of high school sports for people who don't intend on playing pro). Too often the games become a give the puck to so-and-so and then they score. Individual skills get lost because no one's using them in gametime, no one else gets passed to; it becomes a one woman show, with everyone else just sorta acting as support staff. Also, since most girls, including these two, won't be able to make the boys' teams, few girls will be lost. It's only in rare, that a girl will play with the boys, and I don't think that will have much of an effect overall on girls' sports -- and it could even have a very positive effect.

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Old
10-03-2006, 01:02 AM
  #110
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both got cut i heard

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10-06-2006, 02:08 PM
  #111
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Are they going to sue now that they got cut? They already got $3500 in damages for not being allowed to play on a team that they weren't even good enough to play on.

Common sense tells me that if a girl is way too good for the girls league and playing with boys is her only alternative, then she should be allowed to do so. Common sense also tells me that boys should not be allowed to play on girls teams because they would have an unfair advantage and would take spots away from female players.

My problem with this is that they took it to the courts and made it this whole "human rights" issue. The trouble with this is that the courts like to establish objective standards based on precedent and literal interpretations of rulings and laws. There is no room for common sense or any subjectivity, which means that according to a literal interpretation of this ruling, it would be hypocritical to not allow boys to play on girls teams. Common sense may say that this shouldn't be allowed, but legal precedent says it must. This should never have been made into a broad issue of "discrimination" or "human rights", but rather should have simply been an issue of whether these specific girls should have been allowed to play on that specific team. They've now created a slippery slope and may not be able to get off.

As far as the on ice part goes, I have worries about girls playing with boys at that age. Other sports may be fine, but hockey is a contact sport and if these girls have been playing in women's leagues all their lives without hitting, it could be dangerous to suddenly step in and play against 17 year-old boys.

I also know from experience that as a guy, it can be difficult playing against a girl. No matter how hard I tried, I could never bring myself to play the same way against a girl as I would against another guy. Even if she was a good player, tough enough to handle the physical play, and wanted to be treated the same, I would still feel bad if I knocked her down even if she didn't. Playing shinny would be fine, but playing against girls in a real game, quite frankly, took all the fun out of it for me.

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Old
10-06-2006, 02:25 PM
  #112
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winnipeg has produced some of the best female players in the world. ie. jennifer botterill, sami jo small.

there are and were alot more options for these sisters to advance their careers had they chose than a boys high school team.

their refusal to play on any other team during the two years of the case, as well as now that they were cut, proves to me that they had a different agenda than merely "advancing their skills".

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Old
10-07-2006, 02:57 PM
  #113
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What you guys never thought about was the guy who got cut, because some girl wanted to play with the boys, even though there is a girls team .

That boy should be able to play for the girls right? I mean, same skill , just cause he's a boy?

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Old
10-07-2006, 03:24 PM
  #114
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If they truly cared about Women's hockey they would donate the $3,500 to a Women's hockey organization.

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10-09-2006, 05:36 AM
  #115
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Well, don't have much of an idea really of the status of women and men's hockey over there, but to me, if she's good enough to play on the team, let her. And I totally support Ti-girl in her posts. Of course those sisters shouldn't be bagging the women's team - that's selfish; but wanting to play on another team is not.

We're at a stage in women's hockey where to improve the game, you do need players who have trained at higher levels, and that currently is the men's game. Keeping good players at a level far below their own does nothing for themselves, for their teamates, or their sport. They should be encouraged to keep going on and perhaps help train those below them, just like your pro players hold youth camps etc.

One question though: What's the recruiting pool for women compared to men over there? Because if the recruiting pool for females is still relatively small, playing with men becomes even more important for improving your game.

I would support women in the NHL if they eventually prove they're up to it. When I say eventually its because there are so many obvious obstacles to overcome. Socially, legally etc. Even if it means there are only say 20% female compared to 80% male, as long as they have the chance. At the same time I'd support different types of leagues, to provide for the not so good players, the rec players, all types of players.

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10-09-2006, 10:20 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilerfan120582 View Post
I also know from experience that as a guy, it can be difficult playing against a girl. No matter how hard I tried, I could never bring myself to play the same way against a girl as I would against another guy. Even if she was a good player, tough enough to handle the physical play, and wanted to be treated the same, I would still feel bad if I knocked her down even if she didn't.
I definately could.

I remember playing a few top level travel teams in my state that had a girl on the team. And the girl usually was a mid-level player on a very talented team. They would hit and talk smack just like the other guys. Never complained when they got leveled. Just kept playing. I hit a few of them. Never saw a problem with it, since they got right back up.

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10-10-2006, 10:40 AM
  #117
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Like I said in my previous posts, if a girl is playing on a guy's team they shouldn't complain if (or when) they get nailed.
I got nailed plently of times. Most of them were clean checks and if they weren't they would get called.
Once and only once I tried to use my "I'm a girl" card. We were tied in the third with less than 10 minutes left. I went hard into the corner and centred the puck. Went around for a tip in and got LEVELED. I laid there until the ref called the play and he gave the guy 2 minutes for roughing. We scored on the PP.
When I got off the ice I got an EARFULL from my dad. He pretty much told me that if I wanted to play boys hockey I had to play and not wuss out. If he saw me dive again I would be in BIG trouble.
Didn't do it again and by the end of that year had 2 fights and game misconducts on my resume.


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10-10-2006, 10:45 AM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ti-girl View Post
Like I said in my previous posts, if a girl is playing on a guy's team they shouldn't complain if (or when) they get nailed.
I got nailed plently of times. Most of them were clean checks and if they weren't they would get called.
Once and only once I tried to use my "I'm a girl" card. We were tied in the third with less than 10 minutes left. I went hard into the corner and centred the puck. Went around for a tip in and got LEVELED. I laid there until the ref called the play and he gave the guy 2 minutes for roughing. We scored on the PP.
When I got off the ice I got an EARFULL from my dad. He pretty much told me that if I wanted to play boys hockey I had to play and not wuss out. If he saw me dive again I would be in BIG trouble.
Didn't do it again and by the end of that year had 2 fights and game misconducts on my resume.

What kind of guy would drop the gloves against you?

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10-10-2006, 11:03 AM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yureeka47 View Post
What kind of guy would drop the gloves against you?
I have a big mouth. I was (and still am) a yapper on the ice. I play a really annoying style of hockey where I never stop moving, get in the way of shots and mainly drive the opposition nuts.

The one fight I was trying to screen the goalie and I scored on a deflection. When I skated past the D-man who was covering me I said something along the lines of "Gee, does it suck to get scored on by a girl?" and he said something back. The next shift I ended up checking him hard into the boards and he obviously got fed up. He cornered me and threw a couple of gloved punches at my cage so I ripped it off and grabbed his cage to get it off. The fight was pretty average but I have really quick feet and have good balance I kept spinning around. He was PISSED.

It was against the same team that I got into my second fight. He speared me and I lost my temper.

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10-10-2006, 11:43 AM
  #120
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Then why cant the boys who are not good enough to play on the boys team play on the girls team?
What is everyone so afraid of?
I have no idea. I did lots of sports with girls. Most of the times I was the only man, there was never any problem.

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10-10-2006, 11:46 AM
  #121
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If a guy on my team got in a fight with a girl he would be the brunt of all the jokes in the dressing room for years...

He'd also probably be in big trouble as the only girl allowed to play in our league is Cam Ward's sister.

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10-10-2006, 12:13 PM
  #122
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I'm sure the guy who fought got made fun of by his teammates. We sure made fun of him. Especially because I landed one that split his lip and I only had a few bruises on my one cheek. That and I was about 6 inches shorter than him at the time.


Last edited by Ti-girl: 10-12-2006 at 10:05 AM.
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10-11-2006, 11:13 AM
  #123
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How can any self respecting man drop the gloves with a girl? What's next, beating the crap out of his girlfriend because he lost a fight to a girl in a hockey game.

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10-11-2006, 11:16 PM
  #124
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This is a topic which I have very strong opinions on since I believe that girls should not be aloud to play boys hockey. When I first watched this article on T.V. to say the least I was in shock that any judge would rule in the favor of these two girls. Not only did he give them the right to try out for the male hockey team but he also awarded them “$3,500 in damages for injury to their dignity, feelings and self-respect." The girls then proceeded to bash female hockey.

The first problem that comes to my mind is the dressing room situation. Most of the higher quality teams have their own team dressing room. Where would the girls dress? Another problem that I see is teenage boys often behave very different in conversations and sexual behaviors in the dressing room and on the bus. Since hockey is a very team oriented game if I were the girls I would feel like an outcast because to be frank it would be extremely awkward.

With the new rule changes girls might be able to play more since there is less contact and physical strength needed and more quickness and agility but where do we draw the line on what is fair and what isn’t? If you want to merge boy’s hockey with girl’s hockey you will have to do it on all levels. The top players will play against the top players and the rest of the teams will be tired accordingly.

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10-11-2006, 11:59 PM
  #125
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I've had girls on my team several times, and I don't see what the big deal is. If they're good enough to make the team, who cares what they have (or don't have) between their legs.

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