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Old
05-12-2013, 03:32 AM
  #101
Sens Rule
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Originally Posted by Bure All Day View Post
the logic is bad, but what he says is true...

If you really watch Orr's highlights, he is basically coasting with nobody even checking him half the time.. i'd ****ing love to see him do that today

No doubt gretzky and orr were the greatest players of their era, but not in the scheme of things
Orr was smart. He would not try those things now, because they would not work. Think he just floated around like a butterfly when he faced the Canadiens? Nope.... versus the Golden Seals. In fact it is legend that Bobby Orr held up some versus the horrible Western conference teams after the Bruins got a decent lead to not embarrass them.

The thing that is lost on many that think current players are so much better then those of the past is the one thing that can not really be trained or coached. Hockey sense and intelligence. You can have the most physcially perfect player. Let's use my Sens as an example. Colin Greening. He is fast... beats Karlsson in the the skating competition at Sens Skills competition. Has speed only hundredth of a second less then the record. He is 6'3" 212lbs. He can shoot. However relatively tiny guys like Lindsay, Henri Richard, Stan Mikita.... would have him for lunch. Or even non HHOF stars of the last 60 years.

Doug Gilmour was 5'10" and maybe 170"lbs and he would be a star in ANY era. In 1960 or 2025. Because he was smart and skilled and the most intense desire to compete. It doesn't matter his training or equipment.

Gretzky was so much smarter then everyone else that ever played, including Orr and Mario I think, that he would adapt to anything on the ice. An 18-30 year old, dropped from a time machine and given a month to prepare and watch and adapt to the current environment is going to be the leading scorer in the NHL. In 1950 or 2050. Gretzky was a genius. Beethoven wrote many of his symphonies after he went completely deaf. He could see all the instruments and all the music in his mind. I think Gretzky experienced a high paced NHL game in a similar manner. I don't think Gretzky could even really offer much explanation for how he knew what was going to happen, he just did. He reacted to it... every single thing on the ice surface.. the linesmen, the ref, all his temamates.. all the other team... were just innately comprehended. Gretzky didn't even have to try to think about it... it just was.

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05-12-2013, 03:39 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Orr was smart. He would not try those things now, because they would not work. Think he just floated around like a butterfly when he faced the Canadiens? Nope.... versus the Golden Seals. In fact it is legend that Bobby Orr held up some versus the horrible Western conference teams after the Bruins got a decent lead to not embarrass them.

The thing that is lost on many that think current players are so much better then those of the past is the one thing that can not really be trained or coached. Hockey sense and intelligence. You can have the most physcially perfect player. Let's use my Sens as an example. Colin Greening. He is fast... beats Karlsson in the the skating competition at Sens Skills competition. Has speed only hundredth of a second less then the record. He is 6'3" 212lbs. He can shoot. However relatively tiny guys like Lindsay, Henri Richard, Stan Mikita.... would have him for lunch. Or even non HHOF stars of the last 60 years.

Doug Gilmour was 5'10" and maybe 170"lbs and he would be a star in ANY era. In 1960 or 2025. Because he was smart and skilled and the most intense desire to compete. It doesn't matter his training or equipment.

Gretzky was so much smarter then everyone else that ever played, including Orr and Mario I think, that he would adapt to anything on the ice. An 18-30 year old, dropped from a time machine and given a month to prepare and watch and adapt to the current environment is going to be the leading scorer in the NHL. In 1950 or 2050. Gretzky was a genius. Beethoven wrote many of his symphonies after he went completely deaf. He could see all the instruments and all the music in his mind. I think Gretzky experienced a high paced NHL game in a similar manner. I don't think Gretzky could even really offer much explanation for how he knew what was going to happen, he just did. He reacted to it... every single thing on the ice surface.. the linesmen, the ref, all his temamates.. all the other team... were just innately comprehended. Gretzky didn't even have to try to think about it... it just was.
I think that is what happened when Gretzky tried to coach. He had all of this knowledge and could anticipate everything that was happening. But he couldn't find a way to get the Yotes to understand the way he could. Maybe if he had a mic and they all had ear pieces, he could direct every play lol.

His office was behind the net, not the bench.

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05-12-2013, 06:57 AM
  #103
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The Best Hockey Player Ever retired October 9, 2012


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05-12-2013, 08:27 AM
  #104
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Subban or Kadri, AINEC.

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05-12-2013, 08:59 PM
  #105
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Hard to argue against Gretzky's numbers. So I'd have him in at #1 all time. After that, IMO, Crosby when healthy (like before the puck to the mouth). Sid is so freaking dominant everywhere it's scary. I'd like to have seen him with Wayne Gretzky's supporting cast of the 80s. Ovechkin has the longest and most-impressive highlight reel . . . For sure of the last 10 years. I think ever. His best goal - against Phoenix was it? - I don't think will be repeated in amazingness.

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05-12-2013, 09:00 PM
  #106
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^^^ so to clarify . . . Wayne 1st, Sid/Mario . . . Pretty close IMO.

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05-12-2013, 09:03 PM
  #107
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Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Howe
Beliveau

If Crosby was real lucky those five would let him sharpen their skates for them.

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05-12-2013, 09:16 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Howe
Beliveau

If Crosby was real lucky those five would let him sharpen their skates for them.
I bet you they all die after 1 shift in today's NHL.

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05-12-2013, 09:17 PM
  #109
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I bet you they all die after 1 shift in today's NHL.
In your dreams Junior.

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05-12-2013, 09:39 PM
  #110
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I bet you they all die after 1 shift in today's NHL.
Yea, just like how Patty Kane gets completely steamrolled out there.

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05-12-2013, 09:41 PM
  #111
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This has been discussed a million times, and I think it shakes out the same way every time:

Gretzky
Orr
Howe
Lemieux
Debate Begins Here

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05-12-2013, 09:41 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Howe
Beliveau

If Crosby was real lucky those five would let him sharpen their skates for them.


Finally, someone that either is old enough to have seen these guys play or isn't so close-minded that they think the best players only come from their generation.

Athleticism has come a long way, but there's a LOT more to hockey than that.

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05-12-2013, 09:42 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post


Finally, someone that either is old enough to have seen these guys play or isn't so close-minded that they think the best players only come from their generation.

Athleticism has come a long way, but there's a LOT more to hockey than that.
Been watching hockey since 1983 and have been lucky enough to have seen film of games from before then

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05-12-2013, 09:43 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post


Finally, someone that either is old enough to have seen these guys play or isn't so close-minded that they think the best players only come from their generation.

Athleticism has come a long way, but there's a LOT more to hockey than that.
And skill trumps athleticism in damn near every sport not named "track and field"

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05-12-2013, 09:44 PM
  #115
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Yea, just like how Patty Kane gets completely steamrolled out there.
What?

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05-12-2013, 09:48 PM
  #116
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In today's game, Gretzky would've scored 300 points.

When you're asking who's the best to ever play the game, who's the best at playing hockey? Who excelled the most as the game? Gretzky's knowledge, talent and skillset is unparalleled.

As for the old timers' bias, I don't think that Crosby would've "sucked" back then, in a level playing field. I do think that when it's all said and done, he won't be a top 10 all time player, but he's insanely dominant. Still would've been a HOFer back then.

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05-12-2013, 11:14 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by The Reg Season SC View Post
What?
Some (note: really stupid people) believe that Gretzky or Orr would just get run over by the Ovechkins and Lucics of the modern NHL. They figure the lanky kid that put up 200+ points in the 80s would be at best a decent player and at worst just unable to keep up with the pace of the modern NHL.

The point about Kane is that there are players like him or Ryan Nugent Hopkins who are rather small like Gretzky but are able to step into the league and put up points from day one.

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05-12-2013, 11:41 PM
  #118
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My dad says Robert Gordon was the best there ever was. Period.

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05-12-2013, 11:45 PM
  #119
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Orr played in the freaking 60-70's. how delusial you have to be to think he has a chance against today players? Pretty sure i can find a player in 1900 that scored 100 goal in one season ( whatever the league was back than ) and say zomg he is the best player to ever play the game

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05-12-2013, 11:47 PM
  #120
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I stubbornly refuse to believe that Gretzky would cut it today. First off, I'll help out anyone willing to argue with me right here by saying I'm a 17 year old with limited viewing experiences of old time hockey. But if you stick around I'd love to hear someone refute me. Make fun of me all you want from this poor start but hear me out:

Back in the day was NOTHING like today. Not even close. I openly laugh at anyone who says so. Goalies sucked, defenders sucked and forwards had all the time in the world. Every highlight video of all the old-time greats look foolishly unimpressive. You can call it better present day training, better coaching, better equipment, wider pool of players to choose from, or whatever else, but it's a simple fact that play back in the day does not hold a ****ing candle to today. Look at a Sidney Crosby highlight video, then look at a Bobby Orr or Gretzky highlight video in case you refuse to believe me.

The main reason for people claiming how guys like Gretzky could seamlessly slide into today's NHL is from his supreme hockey sense. Is this justified? Somewhat, but hockey sense only gets you so far. His size, skill, hands and speed barely compare to today's AHL players in my opinion and a great hockey sense doesn't bring him to the NHL. Guys like Gretzky could just get rubbed out along the boards and generally owned if big, tough guys from today take the body on him. How does anyone know how good Gretzky's vision would be in today's league though? The game is faster, more skilled and better defensively nowadays and I dunno if he'd thread passes as easily as he did back then.

I strongly agree that Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux and whoever else was great for their time, but not compared with today's standard. One argument I hate is how "if you gave Gretzky today's coaching and training he'd be brilliant and school Crosby". This is most likely true, but what kind of useless, hypothetical argument is that? If Gretzky didn't have his dad molding him into something great then he would've been only average. If Bobby Orr never picked up a hockey stick then he'd suck at hockey. If Gordie Howe had asthma then he'd never cut it. History has been made; it's set in stone. You can hypothetically change anyone into a superstar by giving them imaginary coaching, equipment and training. If my dad was Walter Gretzky I'd be great at hockey. But he wasn't my dad. He was Gretzky's. Why do people like to wonder what he'd do with today's training but never wonder how good he'd be with a lazy, deadbeat dad? Either way, you're just making hypothetical, irrelevant situations. For that reason, I judge players by the ability they had. No benefits of the doubt or rubbish like that. On that basis, Crosby, Ovechkin, Datsyuk and Stamkos pound every single great player from the 20th century down to the ground.

TLDR; Take a time machine and bring anyone (with their equipment) before 1990 into today's NHL and they will not make it. Therefore, Crosby beats them all. If you wanna give old timers an even footing by giving them current equipment then you should also give everyone Walter Gretzky as a dad to raise them into something brilliant. Also some better genetics. And two extra legs so they can skate faster. These are all equal, irrelevant hypotheticals to me.

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05-12-2013, 11:56 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoekkoekPuffs View Post
I stubbornly refuse to believe that Gretzky would cut it today. First off, I'll help out anyone willing to argue with me right here by saying I'm a 17 year old with limited viewing experiences of old time hockey. But if you stick around I'd love to hear someone refute me. Make fun of me all you want from this poor start but hear me out:

Back in the day was NOTHING like today. Not even close. I openly laugh at anyone who says so. Goalies sucked, defenders sucked and forwards had all the time in the world. Every highlight video of all the old-time greats look foolishly unimpressive. You can call it better present day training, better coaching, better equipment, wider pool of players to choose from, or whatever else, but it's a simple fact that play back in the day does not hold a ****ing candle to today. Look at a Sidney Crosby highlight video, then look at a Bobby Orr or Gretzky highlight video in case you refuse to believe me.

The main reason for people claiming how guys like Gretzky could seamlessly slide into today's NHL is from his supreme hockey sense. Is this justified? Somewhat, but hockey sense only gets you so far. His size, skill, hands and speed barely compare to today's AHL players in my opinion and a great hockey sense doesn't bring him to the NHL. Guys like Gretzky could just get rubbed out along the boards and generally owned if big, tough guys from today take the body on him. How does anyone know how good Gretzky's vision would be in today's league though? The game is faster, more skilled and better defensively nowadays and I dunno if he'd thread passes as easily as he did back then.

I strongly agree that Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux and whoever else was great for their time, but not compared with today's standard. One argument I hate is how "if you gave Gretzky today's coaching and training he'd be brilliant and school Crosby". This is most likely true, but what kind of useless, hypothetical argument is that? If Gretzky didn't have his dad molding him into something great then he would've been only average. If Bobby Orr never picked up a hockey stick then he'd suck at hockey. If Gordie Howe had asthma then he'd never cut it. History has been made; it's set in stone. You can hypothetically change anyone into a superstar by giving them imaginary coaching, equipment and training. If my dad was Walter Gretzky I'd be great at hockey. But he wasn't my dad. He was Gretzky's. Why do people like to wonder what he'd do with today's training but never wonder how good he'd be with a lazy, deadbeat dad? Either way, you're just making hypothetical, irrelevant situations. For that reason, I judge players by the ability they had. No benefits of the doubt or rubbish like that. On that basis, Crosby, Ovechkin, Datsyuk and Stamkos pound every single great player from the 20th century down to the ground.

TLDR; Take a time machine and bring anyone (with their equipment) before 1990 into today's NHL and they will not make it. Therefore, Crosby beats them all. If you wanna give old timers an even footing by giving them current equipment then you should also give everyone Walter Gretzky as a dad to raise them into something brilliant. Also some better genetics. And two extra legs so they can skate faster. These are all equal, irrelevant hypotheticals to me.
You know he was over a PPG in two of his last three seasons when he was old and beaten down, and still almost a ppg when he was even older, right? And that was during the dead puck era. Gretzky would have benefited bigtime from the lack of a red line and the greater restrictions on clutching and holding.

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05-13-2013, 12:08 AM
  #122
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You know he was over a PPG in two of his last three seasons when he was old and beaten down, and still almost a ppg when he was even older, right? And that was during the dead puck era. Gretzky would have benefited bigtime from the lack of a red line and the greater restrictions on clutching and holding.
Gretzky had great longevity, and while his offence was still up to a pretty high standard, his two way game plummeted. His final two seasons he was a combined -34. He certainly had a good, long career, but I don't think he compares to Crosby & co.

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05-13-2013, 12:12 AM
  #123
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Gretzky had great longevity, and while his offence was still up to a pretty high standard, his two way game plummeted. His final two seasons he was a combined -34. He certainly had a good, long career, but I don't think he compares to Crosby & co.
...

I really just have no words. People act like Gretzky's stats are grossly inflated, but he won scoring titles by miles. If you look at the second/third scoring players in a lot of those seasons, you'll find their numbers aren't too far off from today (higher, yes, but not astronomically so). Goaltenders weren't as good and defenses weren't as good, but also, sticks weren't as good, skates weren't as good, equipment weren't as good, team doctors weren't as good, etc. The players today have a ton of advantages that older players didn't have. The fact that Gretz played at such a high level during an offensive starved era in old age after many serious injuries, not to mention Lemieux doing the same...

Sorry, there's a reason the greats are the greats. Crosby can't sniff their jock.

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05-13-2013, 12:16 AM
  #124
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If people are going to try and deny that it wasn't easier to score back then, you're terribly terribly wrong. The BUTTERFLY DID NOT EXIST. Goalies rarely ever went down, hell they played like street hockey goalies.

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05-13-2013, 12:20 AM
  #125
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If people are going to try and deny that it wasn't easier to score back then, you're terribly terribly wrong. The BUTTERFLY DID NOT EXIST. Goalies rarely ever went down, hell they played like street hockey goalies.
I'd like one quote of where someone denied it was easier to score. No one has said that, they just say that the advantage is over-stated.

And the Butterfly did exist. It just wasn't used very much due to the pads.

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