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Bernie Nicholls or Dino Ciccarelli?

View Poll Results: Bernie Nicholls or Dino Ciccarelli?
Bernie Nicholls 11 29.73%
Dino Ciccarelli 26 70.27%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-08-2013, 11:28 AM
  #26
pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
really? to me, he was a 1st/2nd line tweener, like ribeiro. i mean, in his best years, was nicholls even a first line center? (seems to have been behind dionne, then 1a with dionne for a couple of years, then behind carson, then obviously behind gretzky)

the point, however, wasn't that in today's league nicholls would be ribeiro, though i think that's pretty close. what i meant was both guys are good but not great offensively, didn't do much other than put up points, can be the number one threat on a team while finishing top 15-20 in points but that team ain't going anywhere in the playoffs, even though both nicholls and ribeiro may well flirt with a point a game in the playoffs.
He did play in the same role as Ribeiro (not getting a 1st-line job until he was traded to New York), but the quality of players in front of him was much higher. Marcel Dionne was MARCEL DIONNE. Jimmy Carson (born Demetrios Kyriazopoulos; now there's a name change!) was ahead of him briefly before being traded, and would be HHOF if the Gretzky pressure and then the following Detroit (compared to Yzerman) and LA pressure (again compared to Gretzky) basically broke his will. Had Carson been traded to New Jersey or in 1989 and spent his career there I think he'd have been fine. His career numbers (aide from the first few seasons) very much underrate his talent level; he was still a quite skilled player when he left the game, he just couldn't stand it mentally; he left the NHL at 27 and was still capable of playing in the top-six, retiring from hockey altogether before he turned 30. Furthermore, none of his four children (3 boys, 1 girl) play hockey, despite the fact that he lives in Michigan and is quite well-off (he became a financial planner after retirement and began investing his salary in 1989).

Now that I've gone way off track with Carson; Nicholls was a top player for his team (whether he be the #1C or just a top 2-3 forward) throughout his career. For Ciccarelli, that ended after the 1992-93 season. On the 1993-94 Wings, better forwards were: Fedorov, Yzerman, Sheppard, Kozlov, and Primeau. Drake also pushed him for the #6 spot until Murray made that ill-advised trade. He barely made the top-six. And he went downhill rapidly from there. Even in 1992-93, he was carried significantly by a dominant Yzerman.

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05-08-2013, 12:13 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
One season doesn't make a general rule over a career does it?

Broten was injured for part of the year, look at the year before.
Look at the year after (87-88). He scored 86 in 67 games, which prorates to a 103 point season. Brian Bellows was 2nd in 81 points and Broten was crap. You said Dino relied more on others for his production than Bernie did, but in 2 consecutive years without much help Dino was undoubtedly the best offensive player on his team. I cant find a season for Bernie.

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05-08-2013, 07:53 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
Look at the year after (87-88). He scored 86 in 67 games, which prorates to a 103 point season. Brian Bellows was 2nd in 81 points and Broten was crap. You said Dino relied more on others for his production than Bernie did, but in 2 consecutive years without much help Dino was undoubtedly the best offensive player on his team. I cant find a season for Bernie.
Those 2 years are kind of outliers to his career though, he more often than not had pretty good centers to work with in bobby smith, Neal Broten and Yzerman for one year.

I'm pretty sure that Nicholls didn't play with the type of players described above as often but I'll re check it.

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05-08-2013, 08:17 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Those 2 years are kind of outliers to his career though, he more often than not had pretty good centers to work with in bobby smith, Neal Broten and Yzerman for one year.

I'm pretty sure that Nicholls didn't play with the type of players described above as often but I'll re check it.
Nicholls had some years with players like that and better; but he scored at comparable rates or only a shade behind, while not playing on the same line.

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05-08-2013, 09:50 PM
  #30
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Dino used to irritate the heck out of me in the old Norris division and by the time he came to Detroit he was still solid but past his prime. He brought grit and determination, drove Scotty Bowman nuts who ran him out of town, as Bowman began building the team his way.
Dino was one of those guys you loved to hate Nicholls was just a guy. Gotta be Dino, not even close.


Last edited by yave1964: 05-08-2013 at 09:56 PM.
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05-10-2013, 11:14 PM
  #31
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
can be the number one threat on a team while finishing top 15-20 in points but that team ain't going anywhere in the playoffs, even though both nicholls and ribeiro may well flirt with a point a game in the playoffs.
This may prove or disprove your point, but Nicholls is top-3 in all-time playoff points among players who never played in the Finals.

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05-11-2013, 09:56 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
This may prove or disprove your point, but Nicholls is top-3 in all-time playoff points among players who never played in the Finals.
Federko has to be #1 on that list right?

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05-13-2013, 02:14 AM
  #33
seventieslord
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Federko has to be #1 on that list right?
Off the top of my head, the top 4 are federko, Nicholls, Turgeon and stastny, in some order.

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05-13-2013, 08:23 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Off the top of my head, the top 4 are federko, Nicholls, Turgeon and stastny, in some order.
I was curious myself, here are the top ones:
Nicholls - 114
Stastny - 105
Federko - 101
Turgeon - 97
Marleau - 93
Gartner - 93
Thornton - 93

Steve Thomas would have been 2nd on this list if not for the end of his career when he was traded to Anaheim for 2003.

So yeah, Nicholls is #1 on what I would consider a rather dubious record to claim. But I guess that it shows he was involved in the postseason. Nicholls wasn't a choker, just not a guy who ever seemed to go above and beyond to elevate his team.

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