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All Encompassing Tortorella..ella..ella..eh..eh...and Glen Cigar Thread Part IV

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Old
05-13-2013, 09:09 AM
  #651
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Originally Posted by shinchanyo View Post
Seeing as how he got us 2 games away from the SCF the opposing opinion would also be valid. As terrible as certain aspects of this team have been our D and heart have been top notch. Is the lack of skill more a coach or GM problem? My thought is GM.
"He's done well with other parts of the game" doesn't justify a terrible powerplay. I certainly pin a lot of our problems on Slats just as much, if not more, than I do on Torts, but he's had plenty of talent over the last three years. There's no excuse for having an inept PP. If you're going to be a defensive team at even strength, your PP should be your most potent offensive weapon.

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05-13-2013, 09:12 AM
  #652
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"He's done well with other parts of the game" doesn't justify a terrible powerplay. I certainly pin a lot of our problems on Slats just as much, if not more, than I do on Torts, but he's had plenty of talent over the last three years. There's no excuse for having an inept PP. If you're going to be a defensive team at even strength, your PP should be your most potent offensive weapon.
I agree here, and its the biggest indictment on Torts as far as Im concerned. Years of futility and not much has changed.

If we pot one or two of those 5 opportunities yesterday, its a lot easier of a game.

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05-13-2013, 09:13 AM
  #653
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
"He's done well with other parts of the game" doesn't justify a terrible powerplay. I certainly pin a lot of our problems on Slats just as much, if not more, than I do on Torts, but he's had plenty of talent over the last three years. There's no excuse for having an inept PP. If you're going to be a defensive team at even strength, your PP should be your most potent offensive weapon.
The most frustrating part about our powerplay issues, to me, does get pinned on Sather. And that's the lack of effort for him to actually do anything about it, outside of the one year he brought in McCabe at the deadline. That was flawed as well.

Sather is the boss. At some point, and I think we passed that point last year, he has to tell Tortorella that he doesn't care what the coach's opinion on it is, he's bringing in a coach to help with the PP. Then, he gives Tortorella a list of options and lets him choose the guy. It's more Sather's fault that we don't have someone else working with our powerplay than it is Tortorella's.

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05-13-2013, 09:15 AM
  #654
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They need a legitimate PP QB. Even at his advanced age, I think Streit would be worth a look.

Del Zotto, Richards, Zuccarello, and Stepan have all been tried and they just dont have it. They dont command anything.

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05-13-2013, 09:17 AM
  #655
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Our problem is not, and never really has been, the abilities of the players we have on the ice.

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05-13-2013, 09:20 AM
  #656
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I agree here, and its the biggest indictment on Torts as far as Im concerned. Years of futility and not much has changed.

If we pot one or two of those 5 opportunities yesterday, its a lot easier of a game.
His refusal to trust young guys like Moore and MDZ, coupled with his allegiance to Richards, has really encapsulated the whole "throw **** at the wall" philosophy. Moore and MDZ was the best point-pairing we've seen all year, and we saw it for all of one game before Torts pulled the plug on it.

If we had even an average PP by playoff standards, we likely would have closed this series out without a game seven. Hell, a 15% conversion rate is pretty mediocre in the post season and that would have gotten us an extra two goals this series.

This is what you end up with when you try and inject huge talent into a team with a core of young players who the coach doesn't even trust completely. Expectation trumps growing pains.

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05-13-2013, 09:21 AM
  #657
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Our problem is not, and never really has been, the abilities of the players we have on the ice.
i am a big a "torts guy" as you'll find, but this is 100% correct

enough talent is there to at least maintain a functional middle-of-the-pack powerplay

the epicness of suckage on the powerplay falls entirely on the coaching staff

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05-13-2013, 09:27 AM
  #658
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The most frustrating part about our powerplay issues, to me, does get pinned on Sather. And that's the lack of effort for him to actually do anything about it, outside of the one year he brought in McCabe at the deadline. That was flawed as well.

Sather is the boss. At some point, and I think we passed that point last year, he has to tell Tortorella that he doesn't care what the coach's opinion on it is, he's bringing in a coach to help with the PP. Then, he gives Tortorella a list of options and lets him choose the guy. It's more Sather's fault that we don't have someone else working with our powerplay than it is Tortorella's.
Slats brought in McCabe, who wasn't a PPQB at any point, and that was flawed. However, Richards was supposed to fix that problem and he never managed to. In the meantime, the best PP we've had since Torts arrived was the first year of Del Zotto. IMO, he's fine as a QB and we've stunted his growth as a pointman by giving that role to Richards.

Del Zotto was great in his first year at commanding the play, stretching out the box and setting up players (Kotalik in particular) for one-timers. Where did that go? Why did we abandon that idea in favor of Richards and a PP strategy that simply has not worked for two years now?

Hand the PP to Moore and Del Zotto. Stepan and Nash on the half-walls, and Cally in front of the net. I'd be absolutely shocked if we didn't see a noted improvement almost right away. All five of those players have skill and proven chemistry. Then switch it up and let Brassard run the second unit from the half-wall.

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05-13-2013, 09:36 AM
  #659
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Slats brought in McCabe, who wasn't a PPQB at any point, and that was flawed. However, Richards was supposed to fix that problem and he never managed to. In the meantime, the best PP we've had since Torts arrived was the first year of Del Zotto. IMO, he's fine as a QB and we've stunted his growth as a pointman by giving that role to Richards.

Del Zotto was great in his first year at commanding the play, stretching out the box and setting up players (Kotalik in particular) for one-timers. Where did that go? Why did we abandon that idea in favor of Richards and a PP strategy that simply has not worked for two years now?

Hand the PP to Moore and Del Zotto. Stepan and Nash on the half-walls, and Cally in front of the net. I'd be absolutely shocked if we didn't see a noted improvement almost right away. All five of those players have skill and proven chemistry. Then switch it up and let Brassard run the second unit from the half-wall.
All of that is kind of my point. If Tortorella isn't going to change up the powerplay that isn't working, Sather needs to step in and bring in a powerplay coach who will and instruct Tortorella to let the new assistant run that aspect. Sather is the boss.

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05-13-2013, 09:37 AM
  #660
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The teams breakout is an absolute disaster.

When the opposition sends 2 and 3 guys deep while you are in possession of the puck behind the net, you should be able to burn them with even the most mediocre transition.

When a team refuses to use the middle of the ice except for long stretch (icing) passes and insists on using the boards and trying to go through players, it leads to getting pinned in the zone. And that leads to scoring chances, penalties, worn out players...

This exact thing burned us terribly in the Devils series last year. It is unfathomable that no adjustment has been made.

As torturous as the PP has been, and as bad as the team has been moving through center ice and gaining the zone, the breakout worries me the most.

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05-13-2013, 09:38 AM
  #661
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
They need a legitimate PP QB. Even at his advanced age, I think Streit would be worth a look.

Del Zotto, Richards, Zuccarello, and Stepan have all been tried and they just dont have it. They dont command anything.
I've never understood why it is that when Francesca interviews Pierre McGuire he lets McGuire's comment that "Torts is a great PP coach" go without ever pressing him for more rationale.

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05-13-2013, 09:46 AM
  #662
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Hitting, defense, and goaltending are just as exciting to most people.

But you're based in Europe, so I understand.
True that, but lived over half my life in North America and grew up playing hockey in Chicagoland. Plenty of hitting, fighting defense in that hockey. Played there against the likes of Tony Granato and 2 other future NHLers. In Sweden I played with/against a plethora of different guys that later made it to the pros (Albelin, Per Erik Eklund...to name a few). I was even in the army with Ulf Samuelsson and Tomas Sandström and I am pretty sure they were never regarded as soft Euros either (less perhaps by our good Ranger buddy DaGoon). And AS I was a crazy goalie myself - so yes - I can dig that good goalkeeping by the netminder can be quite entertaining. But covering the net by 6 people it gets tedious and insanely difficult for any keeper to play in such a maddening system.

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05-13-2013, 09:50 AM
  #663
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I've never understood why it is that when Francesca interviews Pierre McGuire he lets McGuire's comment that "Torts is a great PP coach" go without ever pressing him for more rationale.
I still don't understand why this team doesn't have a dedicated PP coach. I know Torts' circle of trust is small, but there has to be someone out there. Even having Schoenfeld up in in the box or over in Hartford feels like a waste.

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05-13-2013, 09:51 AM
  #664
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I've never understood why it is that when Francesca interviews Pierre McGuire he lets McGuire's comment that "Torts is a great PP coach" go without ever pressing him for more rationale.
Yeah that's always irked me as well. Not to mention when McGuire says it on the NBC broadcast and Doc / Olczyk say nothing about it. Sure, maybe he was a great PP coach when he could tell Marty St. Louis, Vinny Lecavalier, Brad Richards and Dan Boyle to "do their thing" and take credit for the magic, but now that he actually has to coach the players, he seems completely dumbfounded.

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05-13-2013, 09:55 AM
  #665
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Yeah that's always irked me as well. Not to mention when McGuire says it on the NBC broadcast and Doc / Olczyk say nothing about it. Sure, maybe he was a great PP coach when he could tell Marty St. Louis, Vinny Lecavalier, Brad Richards and Dan Boyle to "do their thing" and take credit for the magic, but now that he actually has to coach the players, he seems completely dumbfounded.
That extends beyond the PP.

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05-13-2013, 09:55 AM
  #666
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Yeah that's always irked me as well. Not to mention when McGuire says it on the NBC broadcast and Doc / Olczyk say nothing about it. Sure, maybe he was a great PP coach when he could tell Marty St. Louis, Vinny Lecavalier, Brad Richards and Dan Boyle to "do their thing" and take credit for the magic, but now that he actually has to coach the players, he seems completely dumbfounded.
Wasn't Tortorella the PP coach for a very successful powerplay in Buffalo as an assistant?

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05-13-2013, 10:00 AM
  #667
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The teams breakout is an absolute disaster.

When the opposition sends 2 and 3 guys deep while you are in possession of the puck behind the net, you should be able to burn them with even the most mediocre transition.

When a team refuses to use the middle of the ice except for long stretch (icing) passes and insists on using the boards and trying to go through players, it leads to getting pinned in the zone. And that leads to scoring chances, penalties, worn out players...

This exact thing burned us terribly in the Devils series last year. It is unfathomable that no adjustment has been made.

As torturous as the PP has been, and as bad as the team has been moving through center ice and gaining the zone, the breakout worries me the most.
agreed. These are all fundamental areas of the game that this team struggles in. He plays the same "short game" strategy in the postseason, from the first year he arrived with this team.

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05-13-2013, 10:03 AM
  #668
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Wasn't Tortorella the PP coach for a very successful powerplay in Buffalo as an assistant?
Yeah, right at the same time LaFontaine, Mogilny and Hawerchuk were tearing up the league in the same city. More elite talent.

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05-13-2013, 10:03 AM
  #669
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I dont give a damn how long you've been watching hockey. Judging by your comments about openly rooting for the team to lose so a coaching change can take place, it sure seems like you havent used all that hockey watching time to analyze this situation and put it into perspective.

This organization has 1 cup in 73 years. Its difficult to win the Stanley Cup. They currently have a coach that, yes, has his flaws -- hes also less than a year removed from the Rangers' best performance in close to 20 years. This current roster has had 2 major overhauls since July, no training camp, a strike shortened season, and a supposed #1 center who cant get out of his own way. Yet, here we are, heading into a game 7 against one of the hottest teams in the league down the stretch. For you to scapegoat the coach and pin the entire lack of a current or future Stanley Cup on him lacks perspective.

I hope that this teams wins tonight, and goes on a massive run in the current weeks to make you look like a fool but you already look like one by openly rooting for your team to lose playoff games because you think you know better about the coaching situation.
So, the Rangers, historically, are a marginal franchise. So I should be satisfied with marginal playoff performances? Especially when the Rangers have a generational talent with Henrik Lundqvist. You think Torts has done a bang up job with the team he has? Did you even live through Rodger Nielson? A guy who constantly got the Rangers to be tops in their division. But who, equally, had very little success in the playoffs. After a few seasons, they got rid of him.

But, the Rangers didn't have a long enough training camp you say. That excuse works maybe the first 20-25 games of the season. The Rangers systemic issues were apparent all the way through. Actually, its more or less the same problems they had last season(just more magnified). I didn't think they were going to win anything last season either. But, at least, I felt they were moving forward. I thought Torts, after getting Nash, would start making adjustments to his system. It didn't happen. We still play the same damn way we did since '11. The modern day transition is completely over his head.

We pissed away having a year of Gabs/Nash together for the playoffs just so Torts can get his "guys." Torts couldn't figure out a system or strategy to utilize both of those weapons effectively. That hasn't seemed to be helping Nash a whole hell of a lot now that he can be smothered.

You trying to buff up Washington is laughable. They are marginal team playing in the worst division in hockey. They have one of the worst penalty kills in the NHL, and yet it looks amazing against our inept PP.

You can call me a fool if you want. But I'd rather be fool than delusional that this team will magically win a cup with Torts. It aint happening.

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05-13-2013, 10:04 AM
  #670
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Yeah, right at the same time LaFontaine, Mogilny and Hawerchuk were tearing up the league in the same city. More elite talent.
Fair enough.

PP ranking in the years Tortorella was an assistant in Buffalo:

89-90: 9th
90-91: 14th
91-92: 1st
92-93: 10th
93-94: 2nd
94-95: 11th

So, if he was indeed coaching their PP like I seem to recall, he had two great, great years and the rest were middle of the pack. (there were only 21-26 teams in those years)


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05-13-2013, 10:07 AM
  #671
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The teams breakout is an absolute disaster.

When the opposition sends 2 and 3 guys deep while you are in possession of the puck behind the net, you should be able to burn them with even the most mediocre transition.

When a team refuses to use the middle of the ice except for long stretch (icing) passes and insists on using the boards and trying to go through players, it leads to getting pinned in the zone. And that leads to scoring chances, penalties, worn out players...

This exact thing burned us terribly in the Devils series last year. It is unfathomable that no adjustment has been made.

As torturous as the PP has been, and as bad as the team has been moving through center ice and gaining the zone, the breakout worries me the most.
Agreed completely. The transitional game is the major problem with the Torts. Its the issue that bleeds into almost every aspect of the Rangers game.

He is completely clueless in this regard. Hopelessly so...

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05-13-2013, 10:10 AM
  #672
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Always agree with BB. Tortorella's system has fundamental flaws that were always there. They were just more magnified this year. Instead of acknowledging them, people chose to blame the Rangers struggles on the lack of training camp.

The breakout and even strength is terrible. The breakout on the powerplay manages to be even worse.

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05-13-2013, 10:49 AM
  #673
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So, the Rangers, historically, are a marginal franchise. So I should be satisfied with marginal playoff performances? Especially when the Rangers have a generational talent with Henrik Lundqvist. You think Torts has done a bang up job with the team he has? Did you even live through Rodger Nielson? A guy who constantly got the Rangers to be tops in their division. But who, equally, had very little success in the playoffs. After a few seasons, they got rid of him.

But, the Rangers didn't have a long enough training camp you say. That excuse works maybe the first 20-25 games of the season. The Rangers systemic issues were apparent all the way through. Actually, its more or less the same problems they had last season(just more magnified). I didn't think they were going to win anything last season either. But, at least, I felt they were moving forward. I thought Torts, after getting Nash, would start making adjustments to his system. It didn't happen. We still play the same damn way we did since '11. The modern day transition is completely over his head.

We pissed away having a year of Gabs/Nash together for the playoffs just so Torts can get his "guys." Torts couldn't figure out a system or strategy to utilize both of those weapons effectively. That hasn't seemed to be helping Nash a whole hell of a lot now that he can be smothered.

You trying to buff up Washington is laughable. They are marginal team playing in the worst division in hockey. They have one of the worst penalty kills in the NHL, and yet it looks amazing against our inept PP.

You can call me a fool if you want. But I'd rather be fool than delusional that this team will magically win a cup with Torts. It aint happening.
You're really going out on a limb here saying the team won't win a cup with Tortorella. Again 1 cup in 73 years for this franchise. Not to mention I bet you have no realistic candidate that can come in here and coach this team to a Stanley Cup.

But thats not what irks me here. This would be a legitimate gripe in the offseason. You rooting for the team to lose on the day of a game 7 is incomprehensible to me. Trying to hide it under the guise that it will lead to a greater good is a bunch of baloney.

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05-13-2013, 10:51 AM
  #674
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I also don't see how we're more likely to fire Tortorella if we lose game 7 versus if we win. I don't think there's a chance he's gone after this year no matter what. We will see about next year.

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05-13-2013, 11:00 AM
  #675
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The PP does suck. The personnel is picked out of a hat. Torts has a million combinations. In one game,DZ plays the PP and the next game he doesn't. Same thing with Moore. The personnel choices appear to be random. Its hard to throw players together and ask them to be productive when they haven't played together. The PP has no plan. Other teams have set plays off of faceoff wins. Pick a group of players and put them out there.

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