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Wasting talent in CHL, evidence

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Old
03-22-2013, 02:22 PM
  #376
vorky
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Originally Posted by kemisti View Post
I think he's contract slided one year as he wasn't 20. NHL contracts will slide is player doesn't play 9 games in NHL when they are under 20 yrs old.
thx, good idea for KHL´s contracts

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03-22-2013, 09:17 PM
  #377
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Oh, that's bad news for Avtsin.

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03-23-2013, 08:55 AM
  #378
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"Next Ovechkins" don't get picked in the 5th round. And does he really belong in this thread since he never played in the CHL? By the way there's more opinoon's on him at the thread in Canadiens' section: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1381675

It also seems there is a reason he went as low as the 5th round: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...9&postcount=55

Quote:
Q: So he is not the next Ovechkin, is he?
A:Actually, I wouldn't be rushing to making pronouncements. Yes, Avtsin has some real raw tallent. But he has certain gaps in his technical skills and tactical areas that he has to work on. How is he going to fix them? Different players correct those problems in different ways and there are some who never manage to fix them.

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03-23-2013, 09:30 AM
  #379
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
"Next Ovechkins" don't get picked in the 5th round. And does he really belong in this thread since he never played in the CHL? By the way there's more opinoon's on him at the thread in Canadiens' section: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1381675

It also seems there is a reason he went as low as the 5th round: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...9&postcount=55
1) I always said this thread is misnamed, it should be NA, not just CHL
2) Who said he's the next Ovechkin?
3) Why is his raw talent hasn't materialized? I am convinced that in NA they don't work on bringing players to the next level and in Russia they do. In NA they choose the best one out there, since there's a plethora of players of average world skill to choose from, while in Russia - not so much
4) In addition, if memory serves me right, he's had a slew of injuries and some bad.


Last edited by cska78: 03-23-2013 at 09:43 AM.
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03-23-2013, 11:42 AM
  #380
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1) I always said this thread is misnamed, it should be NA, not just CHL
2) Who said he's the next Ovechkin?
3) Why is his raw talent hasn't materialized? I am convinced that in NA they don't work on bringing players to the next level and in Russia they do. In NA they choose the best one out there, since there's a plethora of players of average world skill to choose from, while in Russia - not so much
4) In addition, if memory serves me right, he's had a slew of injuries and some bad.
It's the same as his former coach in Dynamo said, some coaches are better at developing players than other. It doesn't matter where the coach comes from. Like the Habs fans said on that thread, they don't have a high opinions of the Hamilton coach. It's same in every country, some junior coaches in Finland are better are than others. E.g. Helsinki Jokerit A-juniors had new coaches this season and they ended up missing the playoffs after playing in the finals last year with Tomek Valtonen (current assistant with Jokerit SM-Liiga team). Please don't insult everyone's intelligence by claiming every coach in Russia can make every player into a world class player.

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03-23-2013, 08:54 PM
  #381
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It's a different system in North America. There - and especially in Canadian Hockey League - you see that it is all about the teams success and they take the best players and try to get them into the NHL in any possible way.

In Europe - especially in Russia and Switzerland - coaches try to develop any player in a top junior league individually so that they are well-prepared for a possible future in professional hockey!

The system in Russia can rather be compared to the one of FC Barcelona or Real Madrid in football. Few guys make it to the first team of Barca or Real but many, many players continue to have a successful career in pro football as they all get the best possible development.

Off course there are good and bad coaches in any of the systems but if I had to chose between playing junior hockey in the States or in Russia, I would stay in Russia.

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03-23-2013, 10:33 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
It's a different system in North America. There - and especially in Canadian Hockey League - you see that it is all about the teams success and they take the best players and try to get them into the NHL in any possible way.

In Europe - especially in Russia and Switzerland - coaches try to develop any player in a top junior league individually so that they are well-prepared for a possible future in professional hockey!

The system in Russia can rather be compared to the one of FC Barcelona or Real Madrid in football. Few guys make it to the first team of Barca or Real but many, many players continue to have a successful career in pro football as they all get the best possible development.

Off course there are good and bad coaches in any of the systems but if I had to chose between playing junior hockey in the States or in Russia, I would stay in Russia.
Yup, that is pretty much what it is.

Few NA coaches will put the effort into players that is traditional in developing young talent in Russia. Much more is up to the player in NA on how to develop rather than the hockey school/club which will guide and invest a lot to bring him up to professional levels in Russia.

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03-24-2013, 04:44 AM
  #383
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Yup, that is pretty much what it is.

Few NA coaches will put the effort into players that is traditional in developing young talent in Russia. Much more is up to the player in NA on how to develop rather than the hockey school/club which will guide and invest a lot to bring him up to professional levels in Russia.
Yes. In Russia you stay in a certain hockey school for years and they know you exactly and work with you just as you need it on and off the ice. In NA they see you as a "product", especially if you are European, and if you have problems at the start in CHL for example they consider just to get another import rather than invest their time in a certain player.

The more I can't understand why so many guys leave Russia that early. Look at Ovechkin, Kovalchuk or Malkin. They first played pro hockey in Russia and did this damage their development? I would say rather not.

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03-24-2013, 05:08 AM
  #384
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The more I can't understand why so many guys leave Russia that early. Look at Ovechkin, Kovalchuk or Malkin. They first played pro hockey in Russia and did this damage their development? I would say rather not.
As I see it.. because guys are without contract at 16/17 (last year kids born 1995, this year 1996ers, next 1997ers). They are drafted/protected by KHL club but dont sign new contract for 3years. They move to CHL/USHL instead. That is the best timing for kids, because russian clubs have NO influence to keep them. Kids are without contract since 1.5. of particular year. They can not leave earlier (because of attending primary school and CHL import draft is not held at 15y of a kid, as I know) or later (because they need permission of russian club - like Kucherov got from CSKA, because they can became next Prokhorkins .... yes, they can buy out contract with KHL club, but who do it? at 18th/19th?). That is how Yakupov/Namestnikov etc (2010), Grigorenko (2011), Zadorov etc (2012) left. When Namestnikov/Yakupov moved, the KHL entry contracts were for 5years (until he is 20y), today are for 3years (until he is 22y)

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03-24-2013, 11:23 AM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
Yes. In Russia you stay in a certain hockey school for years and they know you exactly and work with you just as you need it on and off the ice. In NA they see you as a "product", especially if you are European, and if you have problems at the start in CHL for example they consider just to get another import rather than invest their time in a certain player.

The more I can't understand why so many guys leave Russia that early. Look at Ovechkin, Kovalchuk or Malkin. They first played pro hockey in Russia and did this damage their development? I would say rather not.
I have to question how much you really know about the average week in the life of a CHL player? To say they don't pay attention to individual player's development couldn't be further from the truth(even though the quality of coaching varies from team to team, like I said).

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03-24-2013, 12:23 PM
  #386
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I have to question how much you really know about the average week in the life of a CHL player? To say they don't pay attention to individual player's development couldn't be further from the truth(even though the quality of coaching varies from team to team, like I said).
Dont overreact. Nobody said CHL teams dont pay attention to individual development. There are varying styles and systems, of which coaching is a small aspect.
In Canada the hockey playing population is huge. Every team has try outs and if you cant make it, try somewhere else. Obviously once your on the team they will better you, because it is within the teams best interest.
There are few to no hockey academies in Canada that teach a child how to skate and hold a stick and then have him in their system until he is drafted.
In Russia, its all about that. A parent can bring a kid to the CSKA hockey school and he can literally stay there until he is a 20yr old fully developed hockey player. Ovechkin didn't know how to play hockey until he went to Dynamo. He was drafted out of Dynamo. The coaches he worked with all his life obviously paid strenuous attention to his development. Something that is not quite possible in a triple-A Canadian 2 year stint with the team where you may never see the coach again.

I dont have an opinion on which system is better. In Canada, you have full free choice of what you want your kid to do and where he fits in best. There is no need for a system, and the Hockey Canada pyramid has a place for everyone. If you want to work/improve as an individual, you can and sign up for a hockey camp in the summer or do other things. This system works well here. And the Russian system works well there.

The point is, Jussi, that the posters on this board are saying that its a terrible idea to switch these systems at a delicate age of 15-18. That is a legitimate opinion. Its got nothing to do with which coaches are better or which care more. If you find that its no big deal to hop continents and switch lifestyle and system then thats fine too, Im sure it has worked out for some players.

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03-24-2013, 03:59 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by metmag View Post
Dont overreact. Nobody said CHL teams dont pay attention to individual development. There are varying styles and systems, of which coaching is a small aspect.
In Canada the hockey playing population is huge. Every team has try outs and if you cant make it, try somewhere else. Obviously once your on the team they will better you, because it is within the teams best interest.
There are few to no hockey academies in Canada that teach a child how to skate and hold a stick and then have him in their system until he is drafted.
In Russia, its all about that. A parent can bring a kid to the CSKA hockey school and he can literally stay there until he is a 20yr old fully developed hockey player. Ovechkin didn't know how to play hockey until he went to Dynamo. He was drafted out of Dynamo. The coaches he worked with all his life obviously paid strenuous attention to his development. Something that is not quite possible in a triple-A Canadian 2 year stint with the team where you may never see the coach again.

I dont have an opinion on which system is better. In Canada, you have full free choice of what you want your kid to do and where he fits in best. There is no need for a system, and the Hockey Canada pyramid has a place for everyone. If you want to work/improve as an individual, you can and sign up for a hockey camp in the summer or do other things. This system works well here. And the Russian system works well there.

The point is, Jussi, that the posters on this board are saying that its a terrible idea to switch these systems at a delicate age of 15-18. That is a legitimate opinion. Its got nothing to do with which coaches are better or which care more. If you find that its no big deal to hop continents and switch lifestyle and system then thats fine too, Im sure it has worked out for some players.
As usual I'm saying the same as always, that each player's situation is different. These kid want to become professional hockey players and they make their decisions based on individual situations and accept the outcome, whether it's good or bad. Sometimes ones hockey career can be dictated by completely conflicting personalities.

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03-24-2013, 06:07 PM
  #388
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As usual I'm saying the same as always, that each player's situation is different. These kid want to become professional hockey players and they make their decisions based on individual situations and accept the outcome, whether it's good or bad. Sometimes ones hockey career can be dictated by completely conflicting personalities.
I actually agree with that. These kids dont owe it to anybody to fully develop their natural talents. They do what they/their parents want. Maybe a teen doesnt want to become a major superstar but just wants to enjoy the NA lifestyle. Look at Kabanov, he was projected top-5 pick overall. Now average AHLer(still developing). I think most can agree that from a hockey point of view it was a terrible idea. But I dont think he regrets it.
Same in Canada, there are kids who play in the USHL or the BCHL instead of the CHL just because they can get full ride US scholarships. Its not as good for development, then the WHL or OHL, but nobody is judging.

It is what it is. Individuals do what they want.

KHL's job is to make the MHL as appealing as possible for players to want to stay.

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03-24-2013, 08:50 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by metmag View Post
I actually agree with that. These kids dont owe it to anybody to fully develop their natural talents. They do what they/their parents want. Maybe a teen doesnt want to become a major superstar but just wants to enjoy the NA lifestyle. Look at Kabanov, he was projected top-5 pick overall. Now average AHLer(still developing). I think most can agree that from a hockey point of view it was a terrible idea. But I dont think he regrets it.
Same in Canada, there are kids who play in the USHL or the BCHL instead of the CHL just because they can get full ride US scholarships. Its not as good for development, then the WHL or OHL, but nobody is judging.

It is what it is. Individuals do what they want.

KHL's job is to make the MHL as appealing as possible for players to want to stay.
I don't think Kabanov should be used as an example for anything other than another case of dominating parent(s) causing issues. His dad would have likely caused issues in Russia as well.

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05-06-2013, 05:29 PM
  #390
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http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=242584
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=248278

two more who left really early, don't have much scoop on them but sad.

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05-06-2013, 05:36 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=242584
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=248278

two more who left really early, don't have much scoop on them but sad.
Maybe you should do some research before jumping into conclusions. Or does that not fit your agenda?

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05-06-2013, 06:09 PM
  #392
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Maybe you should do some research before jumping into conclusions. Or does that not fit your agenda?
what type of research should I do, Yoda?

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05-06-2013, 08:43 PM
  #393
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what type of research should I do, Yoda?
Not for me to tell you what it is. Learn to use Google you try? Maybe then not an ass of yourself you make.

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05-06-2013, 10:22 PM
  #394
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=242584
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=248278

two more who left really early, don't have much scoop on them but sad.
Don't you think since they played in North America since they were 14 there's a really good chance they are immigrants rather than leaving Russia to pursue their hockey career at the bantam level? Good luck getting a visa for that.

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05-06-2013, 10:28 PM
  #395
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Don't you think since they played in North America since they were 14 there's a really good chance they are immigrants rather than leaving Russia to pursue their hockey career at the bantam level? Good luck getting a visa for that.
Well it's obvious their parents made a huge mistake in leaving the greatest country ever, Russia.

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05-07-2013, 05:47 AM
  #396
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Don't you think since they played in North America since they were 14 there's a really good chance they are immigrants rather than leaving Russia to pursue their hockey career at the bantam level? Good luck getting a visa for that.
I don't think so, because I know what happened to Korostelev, but if I am wrong, so be it.

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05-11-2013, 11:48 PM
  #397
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Don't you think since they played in North America since they were 14 there's a really good chance they are immigrants rather than leaving Russia to pursue their hockey career at the bantam level? Good luck getting a visa for that.
They're Russian citizens who've been in the US on student visas. It should be noted that the person responsible for bringing them over and coaching them is Russian as well. It's certainly not the normal path but I'm intrigued to see how well they develop in coming years. Both are supposed to be top talents.

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05-13-2013, 08:22 AM
  #398
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They're Russian citizens who've been in the US on student visas. It should be noted that the person responsible for bringing them over and coaching them is Russian as well. It's certainly not the normal path but I'm intrigued to see how well they develop in coming years. Both are supposed to be top talents.
so the same situation as with Korostelev...god-awful.

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05-13-2013, 08:42 AM
  #399
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so the same situation as with Korostelev...god-awful.
So it doesn't matter if the kids are coached by a Russian, it has to happen IN Russia? Riiiight...

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05-13-2013, 09:22 AM
  #400
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Originally Posted by cagney View Post
They're Russian citizens who've been in the US on student visas. It should be noted that the person responsible for bringing them over and coaching them is Russian as well. It's certainly not the normal path but I'm intrigued to see how well they develop in coming years. Both are supposed to be top talents.
This is just sickening that these agents are doing to these kids and Russian hockey in general. They are completely destroying the hockey careers of these promising kids who are not old enough to know what is best for them.

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