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Should The Habs Replace MT With Patrick Roy ?

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Old
05-13-2013, 08:53 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Millpool is right on the nose with everything he's saying, which is what I'm trying to say too: you can't blame everyone except the coach, it doesn't work that way.
Who's blaming who? I personally feel like the Habs had an outstanding season, well beyond my own expectations. The coach, whether his name is Babcock, Quenneville or Therrien, doesn't win/lose faceoffs, he doesn't allow weak goals, he can't control a rash of serious injuries to key players.

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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
We were out-coached and unceremoniously dumped by game FIVE.
This is the single biggest mis-conception about this series. It's simply not true. The Habs were out-matched on the ice due in most part to the fact that one team was relatively healthy and the other, not so much, and because one goaltender totally outplayed the other. The Habs deserved a better fate as they outplayed, for the most part, their opponent.

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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
That's on the coach as much as anyone else, including Bergevin who thought it wise to not pick up anyone and burn a fifth on a useless lump called Drewiskie.
Drewiskie helped the Habs finish second in the East this season when they needed experience at the blue line. Bergevin did excellent by backing out out of Clowe and other high price rentals.

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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Therrien did good this year but maybe his good isnt good enough for a contending team.
Contending team? Where did you predict the team to finish before the season start? They weren't a contending team, even entering the playoffs. Most hockey pundits were saying that they "over-achieved".

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05-13-2013, 09:24 AM
  #177
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I didn't go through the entire thread so I apologize if I bring up ideas that were already posted.

I'll start by commenting on firing Michel Therrien, I'll get to hiring Patrick Roy further down the post.

First and foremost, yes, the playoffs and the end of the season were miserable to watch from a fan's perspective, and I'm sure it was even worse for those involved with the team, be it the players, the coaching staff, the front office and all other who are involved with the Montreal Canadiens. However, as I've stated before, in numerous other threads, I'm happy with this past season because honestly, I didn't have high hopes.

Now, someone in this thread said that people were blinded by the second place finish to the regular season, but I say, why not? We did go up from 15th to second, why should we discard that? Who can honestly say they expected the Habs to win the Cup this year, or make it very far in the playoffs, or even to make the playoffs at all?... I'll be the first to say that anything higher than a 12th place finish in the East was good for me. People can claim I'm a fake, pessimistic fan, but after the season we had last year, that's how I felt.

I don't attribute all of this years success to MT, but in my opinion, he played a big part in that. He, with MB, brought in a new attitude and mentality to the team. For the people who watched the 24CH episodes, you saw, a few times, players saying that this year's better than the last one because they are better supported by the staff. So I take my hat off to MT for bringing new life to a team that was so lost last season that we finished in last place in the conference. This is why I don't see any reason at all to get rid of MT, he not only took the team to the playoffs but he brought in a new attitude. Sure, mistakes were made, but I don't think you can expect excellence from a coach that was just hired, who couldn't even have a proper training camp, and who had to deal with a losing attitude with a 15th position team.


Now, on to Patrick Roy... I'll say right off the bat that I have no idea why the fans here have such a hard-on for this guy as a coach... I don't see the point of having him here if he's going to challenge the GM and the media with his hot temper... He was a great goalie, sure, but why are people so sure he'll make a good NHL coach, I don't know...

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Old
05-13-2013, 09:33 AM
  #178
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The thread was too long and stupid so I didn't look closely but..... If we pick up Roy, Radulov basically comes with him Two nutballs for one.

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05-13-2013, 10:10 AM
  #179
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If he is replaced he needs to be replaced with the best UPGRADE available not the best french upgrade which isn't necessarily going to be an upgrade. Forget the language issue and get the BEST possible guy for the position regardless of spoken language.

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05-13-2013, 10:19 AM
  #180
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If and when he gets the finalist nod for the coach of the year award, can we lock this thread?

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Old
05-13-2013, 10:20 AM
  #181
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The idea makes no sense but I'd love to have Roy in our organization.

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05-13-2013, 10:21 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draft View Post
The thread was too long and stupid so I didn't look closely but..... If we pick up Roy, Radulov basically comes with him Two nutballs for one.
Roy's biggest quality as a coach is probably that he's good at controlling nutballs. Players who had bad tempers before and/or after playing for Roy didn't cause problems when playing for him (the most recent example is Dillon Donnelly). I guess they just can't outmatch his ego.

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05-13-2013, 10:22 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
How can you possibly out play a team, and yet be out coached? That doesn't make any sense. If your team is playing better than its opponent, the reason for the loss is likely not the strategies used, after all you are getting more chances and controlling the play.
You are getting the match ups you want, you are employing the strategies you feel gets your team a chance to win. Some display of excellence by certain players are likely to be the reason why you would lose, like goaltending.

You're not gonna out chance a coach that is owning you. That's just not going to happen. Not sure in what world this makes sense, but it ain't the real one.
First, I never said that MacLean "owned" Therrien. You just made that up. But coaching is largely about making adjustments on the fly and adapting your team's play to suit the conditions of a particular game or series. We managed to out-chance them, sure, but they consistently exposed our weaknesses and nothing was done to address them. They had a hot goaltender, sure, but we did nothing to try and make life harder for him. We never scored a goal in the third period!! More adjustments could have been made. All I've been trying to say this whole time is that Therrien, along with others on the team, had a pretty poor first-round, injuries or not.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The strategies you're wishing Therrien would have switched were creating chances. That's all you want from a strategy, to create chances for your team, after that it's up to your players to put the puck in the net and it isn't uncommon for goalies to stone opponents, often, which is what happened to us.
You're kind of forgetting about the whole defensive side of things, which is where our biggest problems lie.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
That doesn't make much sense. On one side you agree that we don't have the depth to cope with such important losses, but on the other you say the coach failed to cope with our injuries. You just admitted we don't have the depth to deal with them, so how do you suggest he responds to them then??? Again, in what world does this make sense?

Again, this isn't a coaching issue, it's a depth issue. You have to be able to differentiate things.
These things aren't mutually exclusive. Ultimately, we were sunk because of a lack of depth. But what I'm saying is that coaching is another facet of the game and it's another facet that we lost in. Just as Anderson out-goaltended Price, so too did MacLean out-coach Therrien. Whether or not we have the proper pieces to respond, it's the coaches job to adjust as well as is possible and I don't think he did. I'm not saying his lack of adjustments are why we lost, I'm saying that they didn't help the cause at all.

I think we're just starting to repeat ourselves here. We're probably not going to agree, and that's okay. I like what Therrien did this year, but I think he had a pretty awful first-round and hopefully, along with the rest of the team, will learn from it.

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05-13-2013, 10:34 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by ZARTONK View Post
I didn't go through the entire thread so I apologize if I bring up ideas that were already posted.

I'll start by commenting on firing Michel Therrien, I'll get to hiring Patrick Roy further down the post.

First and foremost, yes, the playoffs and the end of the season were miserable to watch from a fan's perspective, and I'm sure it was even worse for those involved with the team, be it the players, the coaching staff, the front office and all other who are involved with the Montreal Canadiens. However, as I've stated before, in numerous other threads, I'm happy with this past season because honestly, I didn't have high hopes.

Now, someone in this thread said that people were blinded by the second place finish to the regular season, but I say, why not? We did go up from 15th to second, why should we discard that? Who can honestly say they expected the Habs to win the Cup this year, or make it very far in the playoffs, or even to make the playoffs at all?... I'll be the first to say that anything higher than a 12th place finish in the East was good for me. People can claim I'm a fake, pessimistic fan, but after the season we had last year, that's how I felt.

I don't attribute all of this years success to MT, but in my opinion, he played a big part in that. He, with MB, brought in a new attitude and mentality to the team. For the people who watched the 24CH episodes, you saw, a few times, players saying that this year's better than the last one because they are better supported by the staff. So I take my hat off to MT for bringing new life to a team that was so lost last season that we finished in last place in the conference. This is why I don't see any reason at all to get rid of MT, he not only took the team to the playoffs but he brought in a new attitude. Sure, mistakes were made, but I don't think you can expect excellence from a coach that was just hired, who couldn't even have a proper training camp, and who had to deal with a losing attitude with a 15th position team.


Now, on to Patrick Roy... I'll say right off the bat that I have no idea why the fans here have such a hard-on for this guy as a coach... I don't see the point of having him here if he's going to challenge the GM and the media with his hot temper... He was a great goalie, sure, but why are people so sure he'll make a good NHL coach, I don't know...
Actually, I said we would make the playoffs since the end of last season, although I stipulated we would need a healthy Gionta and Markov to do it. Nice to see I was right! I said we could be a Cup contending team, but we needed two pieces: a Clowe type of forward and a Stoner type of defecenman. When Bergevin got neither, i knew we were in trouble. I hope that we get someone like those two guys in the off season because those are the missing ingredients, along with health, needed to make a Cup run.

I agree that there is no need to fire Therrien based on last season's ending. Of course, I didn't want to hire him in the first place, but he was the best of what was available at the time.

Roy should never be allowed near this team in any capacity ever again. Maybe as a mascot on the street in front of the Bell Center, but not in any position to effect the product on the ice. Lousy traitor...

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Old
05-13-2013, 11:17 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Drewiskie helped the Habs finish second in the East this season when they needed experience at the blue line. Bergevin did excellent by backing out out of Clowe and other high price rentals.
Do you know how I know you don't know what you're talking about? The team played Drewiskie for 9 games and lost 5 of them. He did nothing and brought nothing to the table.

And "backing out of Clowe" should not mean grovelling for Raffi Torres and missing out on him by the deadlline. But alas.

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Originally Posted by ZARTONK View Post
Who can honestly say they expected the Habs to win the Cup this year, or make it very far in the playoffs, or even to make the playoffs at all?
I did. From even last year I didn't believe in the tank because I thought we had a playoff team. Beginning of this year I thought we had a playoff team too - we're a fast, talented team with a tendency to settle for mediocre players and mediocre coaches because our organization doesn't insist on greatness thought it loves to posture toward it.

I figured Bergevin would instill some pride but we're back to settling for 38 year old French guys to play major minutes, extensions to sucky players and never landing the big fish. It gets exhausting being a Habs fan sometimes.

Who can honestly say that given this team's history of INDISPUTABLE GREATNESS that we have the best team and coaching we could possibly have? Is JJ Daigneault really the best assistant coach available? Gallant? Was Therrien honestly the BEST option? Was Bouillon the only option at the #6 slot?

Stop absolving Therrien for his inadequacy and unpreparedness. He's not getting fired but he has only 1 year left on his contract and I hope Bergevin pays close attention because two fantastic coaches are available right now, maybe more after the playoffs and anyone would pick them over Therrien.

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05-13-2013, 11:36 AM
  #186
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I expect the wheels will eventually fall off for Therrien. But talking about replacing the coach now, after a 15th-to-2nd turnaround... that's not even a valid discussion topic, IMHO.

Patience, lynch mob, patience. You will get your chance.

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05-13-2013, 11:42 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I expect the wheels will eventually fall off for Therrien. But talking about replacing the coach now, after a 15th-to-2nd turnaround... that's not even a valid discussion topic, IMHO.

Patience, lynch mob, patience. You will get your chance.
But I'm sick of him nowwwwww

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05-13-2013, 01:05 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by danyhabsfan View Post
The idea makes no sense but I'd love to have Roy in our organization.
It's OK to state your personal preferences even though they're not universally shared. For example, I retch at the thought of poutine, however popular it may be.

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05-13-2013, 03:06 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Millpool View Post
First, I never said that MacLean "owned" Therrien. You just made that up. But coaching is largely about making adjustments on the fly and adapting your team's play to suit the conditions of a particular game or series. We managed to out-chance them, sure, but they consistently exposed our weaknesses and nothing was done to address them. They had a hot goaltender, sure, but we did nothing to try and make life harder for him. We never scored a goal in the third period!! More adjustments could have been made. All I've been trying to say this whole time is that Therrien, along with others on the team, had a pretty poor first-round, injuries or not.
There's a lot more to coaching than just adjusting on the fly. Seriously, that's just one single aspect.
How do you know that nothing was done to address whatever you think they exposed??
How do you know that nothing was done to make Anderson's life harder??
Is Michel Therrien the one freaking skating on the ice?? So how do you know he didn't tell his players to do certain things (like crash/screen more) but they just couldn't execute properly?? Is that also his fault? Are we supposed to disregard injuries, talent, scoring chances, incredible goalie performances, just so you point can make a little more sense???
I promised to stay away from name calling but don't you see why someone would be tempted to call you clueless when you pretty much just assume things without having the slightest idea of what Therrien actually told his players.
One thing I'm definitely sure off though is that Therrien told his players not to score goals in the 3rd period. For sure he never addressed any of that and it's all on him.


If Montreal had poor playoffs, then I don't know what you'd say the team that was dominated 3 games out of 5 by us had.

This series came down to goaltending. It's as clear as it will ever be. There was no coaching mismatch.

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You're kind of forgetting about the whole defensive side of things, which is where our biggest problems lie.
It was?
So it's our defenders fault Price can't stop clear routine shots from the top of the faceoff circle. Got it.

Our defense was our weakness, but we didn't lose because of defense. We lost because Anderson outplayed Price and that didn't happen because Ottawa was getting more chances than us (they weren't), or because Ottawa was better. It happened because Price let in routine shots while Anderson made crucial saves.
We sat back and defended in only one period, the 3rd one of game 4 and we were doing a pretty good job at it actually until the refs decided to go in full ''help Ottawa'' mode.

This might I add with a battered roster.

The fact that we can agree that Mtl out chanced Ottawa, that it could have easily been 3-1 Mtl going into game 5, despite a battered group and having scored only 8 goals in 4 games, is proof enough that coaching wasn't an issue. The team was playing well, and when you're team is playing well, out chancing its opponents, then it just isn't getting outcoached.

You need to understand the difference between making mistakes and getting outcoached.

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These things aren't mutually exclusive. Ultimately, we were sunk because of a lack of depth. But what I'm saying is that coaching is another facet of the game and it's another facet that we lost in. Just as Anderson out-goaltended Price, so too did MacLean out-coach Therrien. Whether or not we have the proper pieces to respond, it's the coaches job to adjust as well as is possible and I don't think he did. I'm not saying his lack of adjustments are why we lost, I'm saying that they didn't help the cause at all.

I think we're just starting to repeat ourselves here. We're probably not going to agree, and that's okay. I like what Therrien did this year, but I think he had a pretty awful first-round and hopefully, along with the rest of the team, will learn from it.
No they're not. It's pretty easy to beat a team that is missing half of their forwards, most of them being key forwards, not bottom liners. Pretty easy to say it's up to the coach to adjust. But there's such a thing as reality. If you go into a race with a bunch of horses, who get injured, and you replace them with dogs, then you're gonna lose. As I said, you can have the best coach in the world, we were not going to win without all those injuries.

MacLean didn't outcoach Therrien. He relied on his goalie to make 50 saves while Price let in some routine shots. In game 3, our players opted to play a physical game, and got away from the game plan, that's the only game you can really say that they screwed up.


As I previously said, Therrien isn't free of mistakes, but to say MacLean beat him coaching wise is just wrong. Unless you consider giving up 50 shots to your opponent, scoring with your skate and having linesman make one bad call after the next that heavily favors your team, as well as making your opponent's goalie injured on a routine shot 2 seconds before OT, all good strategies from MacLean.

Seriously, Therrien could have done certain things different, would likely not have changed the outcome at all, but MacLean didn't beat him coaching wise.

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Old
05-13-2013, 03:21 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I figured Bergevin would instill some pride but we're back to settling for 38 year old French guys to play major minutes, extensions to sucky players and never landing the big fish. It gets exhausting being a Habs fan sometimes.
You're absolutely right.
But the reason why it gets exhausting is because we have to listen to other fans whine about how our coach is unprepared to the point where he got our team to finish way ahead of where you (and everybody else for that matter) ever thought they'd finish, whine about how our Dman coach isn't really the best option despite seeing some very good things from our rookie Dmen and having one of our D nominated for the Norris, whine about how we were on the right track but alas our GM sent it back on the bad one despite being nominated for GM of the year, whine that he can't land the big fish when there wasn't even one of fish out in the first place or despite the fact that he's been part of the organization for only 36 games before the market closed.

You're right, sometimes it's really draining to be a habs fan.

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05-13-2013, 03:22 PM
  #191
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Patrick ROy is a good GM, but he is an average coach, so lolno.

I'm not even sure why anyone would consider firing THerrien at this point...

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05-13-2013, 03:24 PM
  #192
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There's no way Roy is coming. He's the part owner, GM and Head Coach of a good QMJHL team. I think the only way he leaves is to become the GM of a respected team or a team he once played for, the Head Coach of a team he once played for besides Montreal (Colorado) or if and when Quebec gets an NHL team, then he'll leave the Remparts for the NHL. He may leave earlier to Montreal if and when all his kids are done playing juniors as well.

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05-13-2013, 03:28 PM
  #193
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I don't care. Will he win us a cup, then yes! Will he do much of the same? Then no. Do we know the inner workings of MB's mind ... probably not. I want my team to win when we can, develop when we can, and kills time when I can. Roy was one of my idols growing up. It is sad that he left. Would he come back and be as great? I don't know. Will someone else? I don't know.

Anyone who has an opinion on this matter, should up their C.V. and replace MB as GM, and then make the decisions based on their superior knowledge. Me? I have no clue! Go HABS go!

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05-13-2013, 03:40 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
There's a lot more to coaching than just adjusting on the fly. Seriously, that's just one single aspect.
How do you know that nothing was done to address whatever you think they exposed??
How do you know that nothing was done to make Anderson's life harder??
Is Michel Therrien the one freaking skating on the ice?? So how do you know he didn't tell his players to do certain things (like crash/screen more) but they just couldn't execute properly?? Is that also his fault? Are we supposed to disregard injuries, talent, scoring chances, incredible goalie performances, just so you point can make a little more sense???
I promised to stay away from name calling but don't you see why someone would be tempted to call you clueless when you pretty much just assume things without having the slightest idea of what Therrien actually told his players.
One thing I'm definitely sure off though is that Therrien told his players not to score goals in the 3rd period. For sure he never addressed any of that and it's all on him.
Man, obviously I don't know what happened behind closed doors. Nobody does. Does that mean we can never evaluate coaches because they might have told their players this or that? Of course not, that's utterly absurd. We go off what we're presented with. Obviously he didn't tell them not to score in the 3rd, but he clearly didn't have them prepared well-enough to play the final 20 minutes. And in a short series, a few big mistakes go a long way. You can't just say he approached game 3 wrong but it doesn't matter because it was only one game. That was a huge game! It was 20% of the series! You can't simply absolve him of all accountability because he might have been trying.

If you honestly think the only thing that happened is that we outshot them and Anderson was better than Price, plus we had injuries, I could be just as tempted to call you clueless. A lot more goes on during games than that.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The fact that we can agree that Mtl out chanced Ottawa, that it could have easily been 3-1 Mtl going into game 5, despite a battered group and having scored only 8 goals in 4 games, is proof enough that coaching wasn't an issue. The team was playing well, and when you're team is playing well, out chancing its opponents, then it just isn't getting outcoached.

You need to understand the difference between making mistakes and getting outcoached.
In a playoff series, mistakes are crucial. Therrien made more of them. He was out-coached. I think I'm starting to understand that you're simply taking great offence, for some reason, at the term "out-coached." I just don't get it. I honestly, clearly, think MT was out-coached by MacLean. Once again, I don't think this was the difference between winning and losing this series. I also don't think MT is a bad coach. I just think he had a bad series and contributed to the overall disappointment, along with many other factors.

We disagree, that's fine. I think I've had about enough of writing the same things over and over. You don't see things my way, good on ya. You're entitled. It's subjective. I think my views are well-founded and I'm sticking to them. Good day, sir.

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05-13-2013, 03:41 PM
  #195
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Yes sir...see signature.

Roy NEEDS to be with the Habs, none of this going to Colorado or even worst with the Nords if they come back. His home is with the Habs but not quiet yet.

I'm not ready to give up on MT yet, he made some mistakes over the playoffs but he's also done some good things.

Id give him one or two more years with a bigger team and if things go seriously downhill starting next year, slowly ease him out and ease the king in.

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05-13-2013, 03:43 PM
  #196
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Yes sir...see signature.

Roy NEEDS to be with the Habs, none of this going to Colorado or even worst with the Nords if they come back. His home is with the Habs but not quiet yet.

I'm not ready to give up on MT yet, he made some mistakes over the playoffs but he's also done some good things.

Id give him one or two more years with a bigger team and if things go seriously downhill starting next year, slowly ease him out and ease the king in.
Michel Therrien deserve minimum 3 if not 4 more seasons before firing him becomes a serious consideration... Unless the team becomes a dark hole of **** in htat span of time...

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05-13-2013, 03:52 PM
  #197
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Michel Therrien deserve minimum 3 if not 4 more seasons before firing him becomes a serious consideration... Unless the team becomes a dark hole of **** in htat span of time...
Agreed, thats why I'm saying he deserves to stay for a little while. It all depends what performances we see on the team next year. If its like the regular season, I'm all for keeping him as long as he does a good job. I like his ethics and values.

On the other hand if the team performs anything like the last 4 weeks of the season + the playoffs then salut bien....bring on the King. I havent seen such an embarrassing display of hockey in long time, dominations of 5-1, 4-0, 6-1 are simply unacceptable. This is the Montreal Canadiens, we are the pride of the sport of hockey, getting embarrassed like that simply wont do. I was watching the Don Cherry story on tv over the weekend, and the way he spoke about the Canadiens brought chills to my spine..."If Hockey was boxing, then the Montreal Canadiens are Mohammed Ali and the Bruins are Joe Frazier". The comparison was amazing. When was the last time you saw the Habs be compared to champions. Other teams need to start respecting us soon or else this team is sad, I'm not going to stand by while clowns like Chris Neil and others say we are easy to play because we are soft ! (which is true sadly, but will change hopefully)

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05-13-2013, 04:01 PM
  #198
Issacar
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I was expecting the Canadiens to be at the wrong end of 5-1, 4-0, 6-1 scores more often throughout hteh whole season... Actually I though we would be in the race for Seth Jones. So I can accept that the team had a slump at the end of the season, we still have a young core and it's tough to blame the players for faltering.

I also thought that we were less soft then we've been in the past against hte Senators. Don't be wrong, we play in a division where every teams are trying to emulate the Bruins and toss in the Red Wings, Lightnings and Panthers and making the playoffs becomes thatm uch harder. Pretty sure the organization understand that we need more grit and be able to answer when the games becoems tougher physically.

But there are plenty of players who were groomed differently andtheir mentality will tkae a bit longer to adapt. Hindisght is 20/20 so I would take a step back from the end of the season and playoff.

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05-13-2013, 04:17 PM
  #199
Teufelsdreck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Patrick View Post
Agreed, thats why I'm saying he deserves to stay for a little while. It all depends what performances we see on the team next year. If its like the regular season, I'm all for keeping him as long as he does a good job. I like his ethics and values.

On the other hand if the team performs anything like the last 4 weeks of the season + the playoffs then salut bien....bring on the King. I havent seen such an embarrassing display of hockey in long time, dominations of 5-1, 4-0, 6-1 are simply unacceptable. This is the Montreal Canadiens, we are the pride of the sport of hockey, getting embarrassed like that simply wont do. I was watching the Don Cherry story on tv over the weekend, and the way he spoke about the Canadiens brought chills to my spine..."If Hockey was boxing, then the Montreal Canadiens are Mohammed Ali and the Bruins are Joe Frazier". The comparison was amazing. When was the last time you saw the Habs be compared to champions. Other teams need to start respecting us soon or else this team is sad, I'm not going to stand by while clowns like Chris Neil and others say we are easy to play because we are soft ! (which is true sadly, but will change hopefully)
IMO winning 3 of 4 games from the Bruins and the 5-1 trouncing of the Leafs in the last regular season game suggest that the Habs aren't as hopeless as you think. A recovery from injuries and an upgrade at some positions would enable the Habs to finish third or better in the Northeast. MB knew what he was doing when he didn't hire a nitroglycerine-brandishing roi and I for one was relieved.

Let's look at the outcome of tonight's Leafs-Bruins game in the context of replacing a coach. If the Bruins lose, CJ will probably be dismissed.

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05-13-2013, 04:20 PM
  #200
Habstract
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Holy stupid ideas... I mean ... C'MON MAN

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