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What Bobrovsky Winning the Vezina Would Mean For The Flyers

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Old
05-13-2013, 11:45 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Bob was a lack of patience because they didn't want to wait for him to develop, Snider wanted his goalie now.
and if Snider wants his defenseman, he will tell Holmgren to sell the farm to get one as well.

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05-13-2013, 11:48 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
and if Snider wants his defenseman, he will tell Holmgren to sell the farm to get one as well.
Yeah, it's very likely. If that happens we can basically pack it in until Snider steps aside or passes away.

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05-13-2013, 11:48 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yeah, it's very likely. If that happens we can basically pack it in until Snider steps aside or passes away.
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05-13-2013, 11:56 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Bob was a lack of patience because they didn't want to wait for him to develop, Snider wanted his goalie now.
I guess. To me it seemed more like a, "we have two choices: 1) wait and see if Bob turns into something or 2) get a former Vezina nominee now." Could be a lack of patience, could also be going with the sure thing. Again, it CLEARLY didn't turn out that way. Snider's comments seemed to indicate that he didn't think Bob was the answer and he didn't want to wait to find out if he was. Again, could be couched as a lack of paitence, but could also be simply trading up.

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05-13-2013, 11:59 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I guess. To me it seemed more like a, "we have two choices: 1) wait and see if Bob turns into something or 2) get a former Vezina nominee now." Could be a lack of patience, could also be going with the sure thing. Again, it CLEARLY didn't turn out that way. Snider's comments seemed to indicate that he didn't think Bob was the answer and he didn't want to wait to find out if he was. Again, could be couched as a lack of paitence, but could also be simply trading up.
What you just described in your 1 and 2 sounds a lot like a lack of patience to me.

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05-13-2013, 12:13 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
What you just described in your 1 and 2 sounds a lot like a lack of patience to me.
I don't know about that. Lack of patience to me would be maybe a scenario where you have a young guy (Bob) and you think he will be better or as good as someone else (Bryz) but you make the trade or whatever because you don't want to wait that long. The scenario that actually went down, at least from as best that I can tell, is that you had a young guy (Bob) who had a CHANCE to be as good and even less of a CHANCE to better than someone else (Bryz). Snider/Homer did not want to wait to find out if that was going to happen. That isn't lack of patience, that is making an odds calculation or whatever you want to call it. The thinking would have been that if Bob reaches his true potential, he will be Bryz in a couple years. Bryz is Bryz now. I know you didn't see it like that and you thought it was a sure-thing, as we had that discussion already.

But I could see how this could be filed under "lack of patience," though I don't agree with that. However, the rest of the criticisms related to a lack of patience are even less grounded in reality and seem to just be the flavor of the month criticism since "asset management" looks to be a thing of the past.

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05-13-2013, 12:28 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I don't know about that. Lack of patience to me would be maybe a scenario where you have a young guy (Bob) and you think he will be better or as good as someone else (Bryz) but you make the trade or whatever because you don't want to wait that long. The scenario that actually went down, at least from as best that I can tell, is that you had a young guy (Bob) who had a CHANCE to be as good and even less of a CHANCE to better than someone else (Bryz). Snider/Homer did not want to wait to find out if that was going to happen. That isn't lack of patience, that is making an odds calculation or whatever you want to call it. The thinking would have been that if Bob reaches his true potential, he will be Bryz in a couple years. Bryz is Bryz now. I know you didn't see it like that and you thought it was a sure-thing, as we had that discussion already.

But I could see how this could be filed under "lack of patience," though I don't agree with that. However, the rest of the criticisms related to a lack of patience are even less grounded in reality and seem to just be the flavor of the month criticism since "asset management" looks to be a thing of the past.
You think Snider is a patient man at this point of his life? Snider didnt want to wait for Bobrovsky to hit his peak. he wanted a goalie at his peak right now. problem is that he horribly overpaid for him like the desperate, impatient man he is. hes likely to do the same with getting a defenseman as well.
i dont blame the whole Bobrovsky/Bryzgalov fiasco on Holmgren. That is all Snider's fault. The goaltending position had been pretty unstable around here for a long time and Bobrovsky given his age and potential had a chance to change that. But no, we went with the more proven guy and that did not work out at all. Now the Flyers are likely going to continue with the goalie circus for quite awhile longer.

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05-13-2013, 12:34 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
You think Snider is a patient man at this point of his life? Snider didnt want to wait for Bobrovsky to hit his peak. he wanted a goalie at his peak right now. problem is that he horribly overpaid for him like the desperate, impatient man he is. hes likely to do the same with getting a defenseman as well.
i dont blame the whole Bobrovsky/Bryzgalov fiasco on Holmgren. That is all Snider's fault. The goaltending position had been pretty unstable around here for a long time and Bobrovsky given his age and potential had a chance to change that. But no, we went with the more proven guy and that did not work out at all. Now the Flyers are likely going to continue with the goalie circus for quite awhile longer.
I just don't see the problem with trading a guy for a chance to be as good as a guy for a guy who already is that good.

In all honesty, would you be defending the team if they had stuck with Bob and he fizzled out here, while Bryz went on to get a Vezina nomination elsewhere?

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05-13-2013, 12:42 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I just don't see the problem with trading a guy for a chance to be as good as a guy for a guy who already is that good.

In all honesty, would you be defending the team if they had stuck with Bob and he fizzled out here, while Bryz went on to get a Vezina nomination elsewhere?
where would Bryzgalov get a Vezina nomination?

EDIT: Would I be upset? no. Because we would of stuck with Bobrovsky and Bryzgalov would of been just a rumor about coming here. along with the other hundreds of rumors about players coming here.
At worst we would of got the same type of goaltending. Only many people would of probably been able to "accept" it because we are not stuck with a goalie who has 41 million left on his deal.

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05-13-2013, 12:47 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I just don't see the problem with trading a guy for a chance to be as good as a guy for a guy who already is that good.

In all honesty, would you be defending the team if they had stuck with Bob and he fizzled out here, while Bryz went on to get a Vezina nomination elsewhere?
No matter how you spin it there was a lack of patience.

The problem comes when they overpay a 30+ year old goalie in both money and years. The supposed sure thing wasn't a much better gamble when you are handcuffing yourself to a bad contract. And as we found out he wasn't a sure thing after all.

You are also overlooking their choice wasn't Bob or Bryz. It was Bob AND Vokoun or Bryz. They could've had both for less than the cost than Bryz. That was the better gamble.

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05-13-2013, 12:58 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
No matter how you spin it there was a lack of patience.

The problem comes when they overpay a 30+ year old goalie in both money and years. The supposed sure thing wasn't a much better gamble when you are handcuffing yourself to a bad contract. And as we found out he wasn't a sure thing after all.

You are also overlooking their choice wasn't Bob or Bryz. It was Bob AND Vokoun or Bryz. They could've had both for less than the cost than Bryz. That was the better gamble.
exactly. if they felt that Bobrovsky was a year or 2 away from being the #1 then they should of gone with the route of bringing in that stopgap guy like Vokoun who is at the very worst equal to what Bryzgalov brings to the table and could of had both for around 2 million less then what Bryzgalov made alone. Money that could of been used to fix the defense or other areas of the team.
But again we can just chalk that up to "in hindsight" LOL

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05-13-2013, 01:48 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
where would Bryzgalov get a Vezina nomination?

EDIT: Would I be upset? no. Because we would of stuck with Bobrovsky and Bryzgalov would of been just a rumor about coming here. along with the other hundreds of rumors about players coming here.
At worst we would of got the same type of goaltending. Only many people would of probably been able to "accept" it because we are not stuck with a goalie who has 41 million left on his deal.
So you wouldn't be thinking that the Flyers should have gone after the top UFA goalie with Vezina caliber numbers instead of placing all their eggs in the basket of an unproven 21 year old no-name kid with 50 games of good NHL stats?

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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
No matter how you spin it there was a lack of patience.

The problem comes when they overpay a 30+ year old goalie in both money and years. The supposed sure thing wasn't a much better gamble when you are handcuffing yourself to a bad contract. And as we found out he wasn't a sure thing after all.
I didn't say the contract was good. I didn't say it was a bargain. I am talking about lack of patience. The fact that his contract is terrible is not related to their purported lack of patience with Bob. The decision to sign him is arguably related to a lack of patience. They had a guy who was unproven and coming off an atrocious playoffs. There was a chance to get the top UFA goalie, who was a former Vezina candidate. Yes the young guy had potential, but at that point, that was all it was. Bryz had the actual skill. It was a safer bet. The odds were in favor of Bryz playing better than Bob in the present and future. Maybe not throughout the duration of the contract, but I don't think anyone realistically thought that Bob would out play Bryz over the first few years (and he didn't during the first year).

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You are also overlooking their choice wasn't Bob or Bryz. It was Bob AND Vokoun or Bryz. They could've had both for less than the cost than Bryz. That was the better gamble.
And that may be the case. But that is not what I am talking about. The decision to sign Bryz was not a because of a lack of patience with Bob. The fact that there were other goalies available and they chose the best one does not indicate a lack of patience.

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05-13-2013, 02:08 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
So you wouldn't be thinking that the Flyers should have gone after the top UFA goalie with Vezina caliber numbers instead of placing all their eggs in the basket of an unproven 21 year old no-name kid with 50 games of good NHL stats?
I'd have no problem with it at all. You don't see teams who dump a big contract on a UFA goalie winning Cups in the cap era. Buying a goalie off the market, when they tend to be overpriced, cuts into team depth. It has yet to prove successful. It's better to grow your goalie from inside the organization.

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05-13-2013, 03:05 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'd have no problem with it at all. You don't see teams who dump a big contract on a UFA goalie winning Cups in the cap era. Buying a goalie off the market, when they tend to be overpriced, cuts into team depth. It has yet to prove successful. It's better to grow your goalie from inside the organization.
The cap era is since 2005-06. So there have been seven champions in the Cap era (not including this year). Five of the seven goalies that have won since then have been home-grown (MAF, Osgood, Ward, Niemi, Quick). Giguere was not home-grown and Tim Thomas was not home-grown. Several Cup losers were also not home-grown (Leighton, Roloson, Luongo). While I agree it is better to grow your goalie (or defender, or forward, etc), signing a free agent goalie does not preclude you from winning a Cup and it is a silly notion to even suggest that it would. Preferable to draft/develop your own, obviously. Requirement? I don't think so.

That being said, I can't imagine people being ok with the situation if the scenario was reversed (i.e. Bob failing here and Bryz excelling elsewhere). Instead of saying the Flyers have no patience, the line would be that the Flyers can't develop their own goalies and should have gone with a proven veteran instead of a no-namer who recently imploded in the playoffs.

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05-13-2013, 04:04 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
The cap era is since 2005-06. So there have been seven champions in the Cap era (not including this year). Five of the seven goalies that have won since then have been home-grown (MAF, Osgood, Ward, Niemi, Quick). Giguere was not home-grown and Tim Thomas was not home-grown. Several Cup losers were also not home-grown (Leighton, Roloson, Luongo). While I agree it is better to grow your goalie (or defender, or forward, etc), signing a free agent goalie does not preclude you from winning a Cup and it is a silly notion to even suggest that it would. Preferable to draft/develop your own, obviously. Requirement? I don't think so.

That being said, I can't imagine people being ok with the situation if the scenario was reversed (i.e. Bob failing here and Bryz excelling elsewhere). Instead of saying the Flyers have no patience, the line would be that the Flyers can't develop their own goalies and should have gone with a proven veteran instead of a no-namer who recently imploded in the playoffs.
Thomas had not played for any NHL team other than Boston. Giguere was traded to the Ducks while he was still unproven; he made his career with them. Thomas likewise made his career in Boston. Neither one had a mountain of money dumped on them in UFA before winning a Cup.

Your argument that everything would be reversed and we'd be lamenting the failure to sign Bryz is laughable, as it's completely unproveable. For all you know Bryz would have sucked just as badly elsewhere and we'd be pleased we dodged that bullet. Or we'd have had no idea if we actually had a chance at signing Bryz since he very publicly showed he was scrutinizing every aspect of the cities he was interested in, and Philly is a "goalie hell," so if he hadn't signed here it wouldn't be difficult to assume he didn't want to sign here anyways, like Winnipeg.

The fact remains that many people thought signing him was not the best option, and they were correct. The fact remains, in the cap era you need to grow your own goalies to win instead of buying them, something which was known and had been discussed for a year or two before we signed Bryz. The fact remains, organizations need patience with their prospects to succeed in the cap era, and the Flyers have rarely shown it...including the fact that they basically gave Bob one rookie season to prove himself as a starter before buying Bryz for 9 years, which is a move that reeks of impatience.

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05-13-2013, 06:28 PM
  #116
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all this said, i still think based off what i've seen that jeff reese is not a great goalie coach. we should pry cujo from kingston.

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05-14-2013, 12:01 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
So you wouldn't be thinking that the Flyers should have gone after the top UFA goalie with Vezina caliber numbers instead of placing all their eggs in the basket of an unproven 21 year old no-name kid with 50 games of good NHL stats?.
yes. what happens when Stolarz gets here? God forbid if Snider is still around. if Stolarz has a average first 2 years they will likely trade him and bring in some 30 year old sieve at a stupid contract. but that will be ok. because if your not doing anything in your first 2 years you wont amount to anything.
nobody of course has any ******* patience.

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That being said, I can't imagine people being ok with the situation if the scenario was reversed (i.e. Bob failing here and Bryz excelling elsewhere). Instead of saying the Flyers have no patience, the line would be that the Flyers can't develop their own goalies and should have gone with a proven veteran instead of a no-namer who recently imploded in the playoffs.


I already said this. Why would anyone even care. If we stuck with Bobrovsky, Bryz would of been lumped in with everyone else. Nabokov, Vokoun, ect ect when we were talking about the goaltending that summer. I just love the fact how you get on Bobrovsky because he had a rough playoff series as a rookie. Its happened to plenty of rookies before him and it will happen again.
So what happened? the Flyers traded Bobrovsky and Bryzgalov imploded. big time. our veteran goaltender looked far worse then Bobrovsky ever did in his first season here.
Because of Snider the Flyers will have zero patience. Trade the kid, bring in the vet on a bad contract. nope, nothing wrong with that at all. LOL


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05-14-2013, 12:34 AM
  #118
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yes. what happens when Stolarz gets here? God forbid if Snider is still around. if Stolarz has a average first 2 years they will likely trade him and bring in some 30 year old sieve at a stupid contract. but that will be ok. because if your not doing anything in your first 2 years you wont amount to anything.
nobody of course has any ******* patience.





I already said this. Why would anyone even care. If we stuck with Bobrovsky, Bryz would of been lumped in with everyone else. Nabokov, Vokoun, ect ect when we were talking about the goaltending that summer. I just love the fact how you get on Bobrovsky because he had a rough playoff series as a rookie. Its happened to plenty of rookies before him and it will happen again.
So what happened? the Flyers traded Bobrovsky and Bryzgalov imploded. big time. our veteran goaltender looked far worse then Bobrovsky ever did in his first season here.
Because of Snider the Flyers will have zero patience. Trade the kid, bring in the vet on a bad contract. nope, nothing wrong with that at all. LOL
yeah, crapping on a goalie because he struggles in his rookie season doesn't make sense to me.

Here's a rookie year: 3.69 GAA, .889, in 39 GP.

He went on to be pretty OK, what with only the Lord saving more than him once he got rolling.

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05-14-2013, 07:28 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Thomas had not played for any NHL team other than Boston. Giguere was traded to the Ducks while he was still unproven; he made his career with them. Thomas likewise made his career in Boston. Neither one had a mountain of money dumped on them in UFA before winning a Cup.
I think I may have misread your first post. You were talking about signing guys to big contracts and thus taking away from team depth. I thought you were just talking about having guys be home-grown. I still don't think it makes a difference. A home-grown goalie on a big contract is the same thing as signing a UFA goalie to a big contract.

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Your argument that everything would be reversed and we'd be lamenting the failure to sign Bryz is laughable, as it's completely unproveable. For all you know Bryz would have sucked just as badly elsewhere and we'd be pleased we dodged that bullet. Or we'd have had no idea if we actually had a chance at signing Bryz since he very publicly showed he was scrutinizing every aspect of the cities he was interested in, and Philly is a "goalie hell," so if he hadn't signed here it wouldn't be difficult to assume he didn't want to sign here anyways, like Winnipeg.
I am not saying that Bryz would have excelled elsewhere and Bob would have sucked. You seem to have misunderstood. Everyone seems 100% in agreement that in no way should the team have let Bob go. What I am saying is that I find it hard to believe that in an alternate universe where Bob sucked here and Bryz excelled elsewhere, that the attitude would not be 100% defending the team and saying that they still made the right move. I think it would be more saying that people can't belive they went with an unproven kid when they had a shot to get a former Vezina trophy nominee. In other words, I think people are unhappy with the results of the decision, not with the decision itself.

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The fact remains that many people thought signing him was not the best option, and they were correct. The fact remains, in the cap era you need to grow your own goalies to win instead of buying them, something which was known and had been discussed for a year or two before we signed Bryz. The fact remains, organizations need patience with their prospects to succeed in the cap era, and the Flyers have rarely shown it...including the fact that they basically gave Bob one rookie season to prove himself as a starter before buying Bryz for 9 years, which is a move that reeks of impatience.
Who else did they not show patience with in the Cap era?

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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
yes. what happens when Stolarz gets here? God forbid if Snider is still around. if Stolarz has a average first 2 years they will likely trade him and bring in some 30 year old sieve at a stupid contract. but that will be ok. because if your not doing anything in your first 2 years you wont amount to anything.
nobody of course has any ******* patience.
Air tight logic right here. The traded Bob so they will automatically trade everyone else that doesn't immediately excell. I think they will do what every single team in the NHL does. Take a look at what they have and what they need. Decide if they think Stolarz will develop into the guy they want, and go from there. Hell if Mason looks like a franchise goalie over the next couple seasons and Stolarz looks just average, why would you keep Stolarz when he could be traded to help the team in other areas?


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I already said this. Why would anyone even care. If we stuck with Bobrovsky, Bryz would of been lumped in with everyone else. Nabokov, Vokoun, ect ect when we were talking about the goaltending that summer.
Yeah that's a good point. More air tight logic. No one on here ever says that the Flyers made the wrong move by not signing Vokoun so it would be ridiculous to think that anyone would complain had they not signed Bryz.

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I just love the fact how you get on Bobrovsky because he had a rough playoff series as a rookie. Its happened to plenty of rookies before him and it will happen again.
So what happened? the Flyers traded Bobrovsky and Bryzgalov imploded. big time. our veteran goaltender looked far worse then Bobrovsky ever did in his first season here.
Because of Snider the Flyers will have zero patience. Trade the kid, bring in the vet on a bad contract. nope, nothing wrong with that at all. LOL
I'm not getting on him for anything. I am illustrating what the context of the decision was. I've said this over and over again. Despite what many of you seem to think, it was NOT a guarantee that Bob would turn into anything more than an average NHL starter. He had 50 or so good games in the regular season, followed by an awful showing in the playoffs. That is the context in which the decision to go with Bryz was made. Bryz had a better season than Bob that year and was two years removed from being a Vezina nominee. His playoff performance that year wasn't great either, but as a veteran that is something you can look past and see his numbers from previous seasons. The Flyers didn't know what they had in Bob at that point. Like I have said in previous posts, I can understand why you may couch it as a lack of patience, but I see it more of an odds calculation (more likely that Bryz will continue where he is than Bob will exceed where Bryz is). Patience can be good if the player develops, but it can also bite you in the ass if the player doesn't and you miss out on signing a player that could help now and in the future.


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05-14-2013, 10:43 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You have to look at the context at the time of the trade. Bob was coming off a good regular season and an awful post-season. At that point in time, with no hindsight, I'm willing to bet a large majority of GMs would do the same thing. He could have just as easily been a flash in the pan (and still may be at this point).
I think most respected GM's would absolutely not make the move for those reasons. Bob is two years older and if I'm correct he's still the youngest starting goaltender in the league. You don't just trade him based on one bad series.

The real mistake was signing Bryzgalov. I think it's more defensible to trade Bob f you have no choice but to do it in light of the Bryz situation. But then again signing Bryzgalov was a bad move.

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05-14-2013, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I think most respected GM's would absolutely not make the move for those reasons. Bob is two years older and if I'm correct he's still the youngest starting goaltender in the league. You don't just trade him based on one bad series.

The real mistake was signing Bryzgalov. I think it's more defensible to trade Bob f you have no choice but to do it in light of the Bryz situation. But then again signing Bryzgalov was a bad move.
I think a lot of people are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not saying that his bad playoffs was the reason they made the switch. It certainly was a part but the overarching point I am trying to make is that they went with a sure thing over potential. I know some of you seem to think that Bob was a lock to turn into a consistently good starter, but it is unrealistic to actually have that view based on ~60 games of NHL experience. Certainly a possibility, but not a certainty. Waiting could have worked out and Bob could have be what he is now. But it was equially as likely (if not more likely) that he never turns into that guy. They went with a guy who was already there.

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05-14-2013, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I think most respected GM's would absolutely not make the move for those reasons. Bob is two years older and if I'm correct he's still the youngest starting goaltender in the league. You don't just trade him based on one bad series.

The real mistake was signing Bryzgalov. I think it's more defensible to trade Bob f you have no choice but to do it in light of the Bryz situation. But then again signing Bryzgalov was a bad move.
Markstrom is the youngest actually. I could see Lehner take over the duties in Ottawa as well.

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05-14-2013, 11:07 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think a lot of people are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not saying that his bad playoffs was the reason they made the switch. It certainly was a part but the overarching point I am trying to make is that they went with a sure thing over potential. I know some of you seem to think that Bob was a lock to turn into a consistently good starter, but it is unrealistic to actually have that view based on ~60 games of NHL experience. Certainly a possibility, but not a certainty. Waiting could have worked out and Bob could have be what he is now. But it was equially as likely (if not more likely) that he never turns into that guy. They went with a guy who was already there.
For one, I don't agree with your assertion that it was equally likely that he would flop as it was that he'd succeed. This stuff isn't just up to chance, and all the signs that he'd be a successful goalie in the future were there. He had the right disposition, work ethic, physical gifts. His success is not a surprise to a lot of us, and a good portion of us were saying as much at the time.

And I think the assertion that Bryz was "already there" is still debatable after two seasons with the team. Bryz isn't any better than Bob was the year before we signed Bryz. I'd say he was probably worse actually.

My take on it is that the move was necessary given the corner he'd painted himself into by bringing Bryzgalov in. So if I was going to criticize anything it wouldn't be trading Bob so much as it would be the lack of patience they showed when they signed Bryzgalov. But wtf, time makes fools of us all.

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Markstrom is the youngest actually. I could see Lehner take over the duties in Ottawa as well.
Duly noted, thanks.

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05-14-2013, 11:37 AM
  #124
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DFF im not going to quote that book you wrote earlier when responding to me and I dont feel like breaking it up either. But I will ask you this. At what age do you think goalies peak out at? you seem to be ok to giving up on younger players for veterans.


Last edited by GoneFullHextall: 05-14-2013 at 11:41 AM. Reason: add to first sentence.
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05-14-2013, 11:39 AM
  #125
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I'm happy for Bob but his career was over in Philly...

Sergei Bobrovsky playoff stats :
7GP 0W 2L 4.04GAA .848PCT


Right now i'm mooving on with Steve Mason :
7GP 4W 2L 1.90GAA .944 PCT

He stole the games against Boston and Ottawa. Sounds good to me!

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