HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

New Arena deal agreed to by city and Katz group:mod warning #616

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-13-2013, 01:42 PM
  #976
Gone
Fire KLowe
 
Gone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Earth
Posts: 2,757
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
The salary cap isn't the great equalizer the league makes it out to be. Unfortunately you still need to generate revenue to cover the salary. That means that certain markets, such as Philadelphia, NY, Boston, Toronto, have a distinct advantage when it comes to profitability. This allows them to spend to the cap freely, and at levels that would make small market teams cringe. The salary cap helps offset this, but as we've seen since the last lockout, the cap will continue to rise.

The Oilers might be making a profit now, and have been for the previous 6 years or so but that does not guarantee that this franchise will continue to profit. Our salary has been kept quite low during the rebuild, and as you should know, profit is what's left over after your costs have been covered by your revenue. Costs include salary.

To illustrate a point, if the Oilers right now in Rexall are making a $10M profit with a $40M payroll and the salary cap is raised to $50M, that means if they want to compete with the other teams such as Vancouver, Toronto, Chicago or Boston, they have a couple options: Use the model the EIG used, IE field a bunch of players with the most bang for the buck and watch as talent leaves as we wallow away in 1st round purgatory, or spend to retain that talent and remain competitive. If we don't move forward, eventually the cap floor will be unprofitable.

And that's what this all really comes down to. This notion that Edmonton is some lucrative money-making market where you make money hand over fist is a delusion. We're a small market that is still utilizing a 1980's NHL economic model that is just not sustainable now and assuredly not 10 years from now.

You might not like the idea that Katz has the control over all the revenue streams associated with this project, but that's just the reality for an NHL city in this day and age. No longer is the NHL a backwater 2nd rate league like it was in the 80's. It's becoming huge and it's going to be squeezing a lot of tiny markets like Edmonton's out in the very near future if things continue the way they are.

At the end of the day, it comes down to some very stark realities. Either the City of Edmonton as a whole ponies up for a good sized portion of the arena or the Oilers are literally on relocation notice. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If Katz cannot obtain a feasible economic structure suited to match the economic reality the present-and-future NHL, he'll sell the team. And he even said as much when he bought it off of EIG. That the future of the Oilers hinges on the construction of a new arena.

Edmonton has to decide if they want to move forward as a city with the Oilers as the NHL moves from a 2nd tier to a 1st tier sport. If you feel the Oilers are not worth having in Edmonton, then yeah the arena deal stinks. But all you're doing is damning this city to a slow death. Face it, the Oilers are the biggest thing Edmonton has going for it. And for once the Oilers and the new arena are poised to offer more than just a world class arena, but a catalyst for modernizing the city as a whole. It's really a great time to be an Edmontonian because backwards anti-progress thinking such as yours and others on this board are on the way out after 30 long years. Can't wait, personally.
Why don't you use the real salary cap, payroll and profit; which make your argument look like the "misinformation it is". Perhaps you could also point out the the salary cap is going down this year, not up from some fictious number to some fantasy number.

Gone is offline  
Old
05-13-2013, 01:43 PM
  #977
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
The Oilers Best
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 51,381
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Massive cuts to the budget. Some talk of a PST. Mostly accusations from opposition party of over spending.

But a few things, the low benchmark price of oil, bad PR around oilsands, several nations not wanting our product, and the pipeline controversies are all resulting in a massive economic headache.

In the midst of revenues billions of dollars lower than forecast the province is being asked to fund a major arena with an opposition party in waiting yapping at its tails at every turn.

Bad times to be a provincial govt.
Thanks for that and sorry for the delay in my response. Why would some countries not want Albertan Oil? IMO the US not building that pipeline is beyond idiotic, yet we (the US) seem all too content shipping off who knows how much $ to countries that would sooner set us on fire than smile at us.

The lower price of Oil is something that some on here from what I recall said wouldn't happen again. We all know that Alberta is boom/bust when it comes to Oil and if the government didn't save for a rainy day when the getting was good then I feel really bad for the people of Alberta in the event that the bottom drops out of the economy which many of the younger people that haven't gone through these things thought they'd never see in their lifetime. I know that the US's recession sure made me sit up and take notice, my dad predicted it and until I got to see it for myself it was hard to fathom.

__________________
Treat Others As You Would Like To Be Treated
Bryanbryoil is offline  
Old
05-13-2013, 01:46 PM
  #978
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
The Oilers Best
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 51,381
vCash: 500
For one thing is Katz did come back with hat in hand after getting everything that he wants in the arena, then the NHL as a whole would be in trouble. This would mean that salary caps would need to fall, management, scouting, etc. would need to get significant pay cuts, etc. Only the rich teams could afford the type of management that we have now (not the quality mind you, but the amount of people in management positions).

Bryanbryoil is offline  
Old
05-13-2013, 01:53 PM
  #979
Beerfish
Registered User
 
Beerfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,420
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
He will?

Do you anything to substantiate this fact, other than the "Katz is the Bogeyman" theory?
Yes, past history suggest future behavior, especially in an industry in which owners are used to being bailed out and getting concessions.

See Pocklington multiple times. See Glendale, see just about any sports team that has been given good deals and concessions previously.

See Katz and his crew in this deal, coming back asking for more after things have been agreed upon. It's not a stretch by any means.

Beerfish is offline  
Old
05-13-2013, 01:57 PM
  #980
Beerfish
Registered User
 
Beerfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,420
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
And at that point you tell him that there will be no help coming from the government and that he needs to find other avenues to cover those losses. This is why it's crucial to have a lengthy agreement in place that if it gets built that the team cannot move.
As others have points out lengthy agreements get tossed out the window at the 1st sign of trouble. The city and Peter puck had many lengthy agreements that got 'modified'.

I've maintained one of the biggest problems with this deal is the city owning the rink and not Katz and crew. If Katz and crew owned the arena then they have a huge asset they have to deal with. They don't so he and the team is not tied down at all. To top it off the 'agreement' is conveniently for 35 years. The exact time when major life cycle components often need to be replaced.

At the end of the lease the owner, whoever it may be, Katz's kid perhaps will simply tell the city to fix up their stinky old rink or we are moving. This is after the Oilers taking almost all the profits from the rink for the past5 35 years.

Beerfish is offline  
Old
05-13-2013, 02:24 PM
  #981
Billybaroo*
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 737
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
He will?

Do you anything to substantiate this fact, other than the "Katz is the Bogeyman" theory?
Yeah, I do.
His personal integrity, which has been on full display during this tortururous process.
You know, like reneging on prior frameworks & moving the goal posts every month or 2.

Billybaroo* is offline  
Old
05-13-2013, 02:29 PM
  #982
Ol' Jase
PLAYOFFS??
 
Ol' Jase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybaroo View Post
Yeah, I do.
His personal integrity, which has been on full display during this tortururous process.
You know, like reneging on prior frameworks & moving the goal posts every month or 2.
I'd venture you have as much real insight as to how this whole process has actually played out as the rest of us do.

Which is to say almost none.

Opinion on someone's "personal integrity" doesn't equate to fact, no matter how much you want it to.

Ol' Jase is offline  
Old
05-13-2013, 03:01 PM
  #983
Billybaroo*
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 737
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
I'd venture you have as much real insight as to how this whole process has actually played out as the rest of us do.

Which is to say almost none.

Opinion on someone's "personal integrity" doesn't equate to fact, no matter how much you want it to.
You dont think hes moved the goal post numerous? If you dont, you're livin in a dreamland.
Lets see, just off the top of my head;
1) the casino liscense
2) the City leasing the office towers
3) the Northlands non-compete
4)the 6 mil a year subsidy
5) starts negotiations with 100 mil for arena, switches it to 100 mil for development

Those are just off the top of my head.
Thats all fact = no integrity = in the future, no doubt will change rules of the game.

Billybaroo* is offline  
Old
05-13-2013, 03:09 PM
  #984
Oilfan2
Oil the way..
 
Oilfan2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,514
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybaroo View Post
You dont think hes moved the goal post numerous? If you dont, you're livin in a dreamland.
Lets see, just off the top of my head;
1) the casino liscense
2) the City leasing the office towers
3) the Northlands non-compete
4)the 6 mil a year subsidy
5) starts negotiations with 100 mil for arena, switches it to 100 mil for development

Those are just off the top of my head.
Thats all fact = no integrity = in the future, no doubt will change rules of the game.
?? Unless you're in the rooms on any and all negotiation meetings, you're just guessing based on your own prejudices/dislikes..Stating anything listed as fact would be pretty disingenuous..

Oilfan2 is online now  
Old
05-13-2013, 03:12 PM
  #985
Billybaroo*
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 737
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilfan2 View Post
?? Unless you're in the rooms on any and all negotiation meetings, you're just guessing based on your own prejudices/dislikes..Stating anything listed as fact would be pretty disingenuous..
Obviously you dont recall the agreed to framework.

Billybaroo* is offline  
Old
05-13-2013, 03:13 PM
  #986
Ol' Jase
PLAYOFFS??
 
Ol' Jase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybaroo View Post
You dont think hes moved the goal post numerous? If you dont, you're livin in a dreamland.
Lets see, just off the top of my head;
1) the casino liscense
2) the City leasing the office towers
3) the Northlands non-compete
4)the 6 mil a year subsidy
5) starts negotiations with 100 mil for arena, switches it to 100 mil for development

Those are just off the top of my head.
Thats all fact = no integrity = in the future, no doubt will change rules of the game.
No, I live in a world where I don't pretend to have in depth knowledge of a situation I'm not privy to.

Pretty realistic place to be, but don't let that stop your ranting...

Ol' Jase is offline  
Old
05-13-2013, 03:32 PM
  #987
Billybaroo*
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 737
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
No, I live in a world where I don't pretend to have in depth knowledge of a situation I'm not privy to.

Pretty realistic place to be, but don't let that stop your ranting...
You too dont appear to recall the agreed to framework &/or how many times he moved the goalposts.

Billybaroo* is offline  
Old
05-13-2013, 04:23 PM
  #988
raab
Where's the Hart?
 
raab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,701
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybaroo View Post
Obviously you dont recall the agreed to framework.
Obviously you missed that, framework is the basics of a deal and usually these points are somewhat flexible dependent on the specifics of the deal. Katz asking for what he did should never have been leaked as it was obviously a negotiation. Neither party has handled this deal well IMO.

raab is online now  
Old
05-13-2013, 04:28 PM
  #989
raab
Where's the Hart?
 
raab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,701
vCash: 500
I ask this question to all the nay sayers, what are our other options? And what would you like to see done? Keeping in mind that Katz will want free rent in any arena and perhaps additional revenue like parking, concession, etc... If he doesn't receive those things then having a NHL team wouldn't be profitable for him and he'd most likely be looking to sell.

raab is online now  
Old
05-13-2013, 04:46 PM
  #990
fysloc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 337
vCash: 500
I thought the Casino license was an original requirement that katz needed to make the arena deal work out, but then came back and demanded 6 million a year subsidy because he couldn't get the license, which started the whole anti katz thing.

fysloc is offline  
Old
05-13-2013, 04:48 PM
  #991
joestevens29
Registered User
 
joestevens29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 25,663
vCash: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by fysloc View Post
I thought the Casino license was an original requirement that katz needed to make the arena deal work out, but then came back and demanded 6 million a year subsidy because he couldn't get the license, which started the whole anti katz thing.
That's what I thought. Did the City ever try help him with the paperwork?

joestevens29 is online now  
Old
05-13-2013, 04:52 PM
  #992
Philly85
Moody'
 
Philly85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,304
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
The salary cap isn't the great equalizer the league makes it out to be. Unfortunately you still need to generate revenue to cover the salary. That means that certain markets, such as Philadelphia, NY, Boston, Toronto, have a distinct advantage when it comes to profitability. This allows them to spend to the cap freely, and at levels that would make small market teams cringe. The salary cap helps offset this, but as we've seen since the last lockout, the cap will continue to rise.

The Oilers might be making a profit now, and have been for the previous 6 years or so but that does not guarantee that this franchise will continue to profit. Our salary has been kept quite low during the rebuild, and as you should know, profit is what's left over after your costs have been covered by your revenue. Costs include salary.

To illustrate a point, if the Oilers right now in Rexall are making a $10M profit with a $40M payroll and the salary cap is raised to $50M, that means if they want to compete with the other teams such as Vancouver, Toronto, Chicago or Boston, they have a couple options: Use the model the EIG used, IE field a bunch of players with the most bang for the buck and watch as talent leaves as we wallow away in 1st round purgatory, or spend to retain that talent and remain competitive. If we don't move forward, eventually the cap floor will be unprofitable.

And that's what this all really comes down to. This notion that Edmonton is some lucrative money-making market where you make money hand over fist is a delusion. We're a small market that is still utilizing a 1980's NHL economic model that is just not sustainable now and assuredly not 10 years from now.

You might not like the idea that Katz has the control over all the revenue streams associated with this project, but that's just the reality for an NHL city in this day and age. No longer is the NHL a backwater 2nd rate league like it was in the 80's. It's becoming huge and it's going to be squeezing a lot of tiny markets like Edmonton's out in the very near future if things continue the way they are.

At the end of the day, it comes down to some very stark realities. Either the City of Edmonton as a whole ponies up for a good sized portion of the arena or the Oilers are literally on relocation notice. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If Katz cannot obtain a feasible economic structure suited to match the economic reality the present-and-future NHL, he'll sell the team. And he even said as much when he bought it off of EIG. That the future of the Oilers hinges on the construction of a new arena.

Edmonton has to decide if they want to move forward as a city with the Oilers as the NHL moves from a 2nd tier to a 1st tier sport. If you feel the Oilers are not worth having in Edmonton, then yeah the arena deal stinks. But all you're doing is damning this city to a slow death. Face it, the Oilers are the biggest thing Edmonton has going for it. And for once the Oilers and the new arena are poised to offer more than just a world class arena, but a catalyst for modernizing the city as a whole. It's really a great time to be an Edmontonian because backwards anti-progress thinking such as yours and others on this board are on the way out after 30 long years. Can't wait, personally.
May all yours cards be live, and your posts be MONSTERRRRR. Nice man.

Philly85 is offline  
Old
05-13-2013, 05:20 PM
  #993
Halibut
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,160
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by raab View Post
I ask this question to all the nay sayers, what are our other options? And what would you like to see done? Keeping in mind that Katz will want free rent in any arena and perhaps additional revenue like parking, concession, etc... If he doesn't receive those things then having a NHL team wouldn't be profitable for him and he'd most likely be looking to sell.
Put more money into the deal, it's that simple.

He's getting a sweetheart deal in this thing and getting all those extra sources of revenue. He should invest in the deal and be willing to make up at least part of the 55million shortfall. Of course he doesnt want to because he wants to invest in the side projects where he's going to really make his money.

Halibut is offline  
Old
05-13-2013, 05:38 PM
  #994
joestevens29
Registered User
 
joestevens29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 25,663
vCash: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halibut View Post
Put more money into the deal, it's that simple.

He's getting a sweetheart deal in this thing and getting all those extra sources of revenue. He should invest in the deal and be willing to make up at least part of the 55million shortfall. Of course he doesnt want to because he wants to invest in the side projects where he's going to really make his money.
So without Katz what would the city do if the EIG were still the owners?

joestevens29 is online now  
Old
05-13-2013, 05:44 PM
  #995
Beerfish
Registered User
 
Beerfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,420
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
So without Katz what would the city do if the EIG were still the owners?
That ship has sailed. If Katz put the team on the market today with the existing original arena deal with the proviso that the new owner had to kick in an extra 55 million for the arena there would be no shortage of buyers kicking tires in my opinion.

Putting aside the whole hockey operations bit this city and the old crap coliseum has been one of the best concert and event attractors in North America for a number of years. Katz got the team at a bargain, has a gold plated deal in front of him, a huge loyal fan base, a team on the rise. If he wants out go ahead and out up the for sale sign because in our great naivete as fans when he came on board we all breathed a sigh of relief that we had a money bags owner and the days of the moving threats and crying poor were over.

Beerfish is offline  
Old
05-13-2013, 05:54 PM
  #996
joestevens29
Registered User
 
joestevens29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 25,663
vCash: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
That ship has sailed. If Katz put the team on the market today with the existing original arena deal with the proviso that the new owner had to kick in an extra 55 million for the arena there would be no shortage of buyers kicking tires in my opinion.

Putting aside the whole hockey operations bit this city and the old crap coliseum has been one of the best concert and event attractors in North America for a number of years. Katz got the team at a bargain, has a gold plated deal in front of him, a huge loyal fan base, a team on the rise. If he wants out go ahead and out up the for sale sign because in our great naivete as fans when he came on board we all breathed a sigh of relief that we had a money bags owner and the days of the moving threats and crying poor were over.
If there was I'm sure someone would step up and pull a Katz so to speak and do this.

Yet there hasn't been anyone stepping up and saying "you know, if Katz doesn't want this sweatheart deal I'll take it".

joestevens29 is online now  
Old
05-13-2013, 05:54 PM
  #997
Halibut
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,160
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
That ship has sailed. If Katz put the team on the market today with the existing original arena deal with the proviso that the new owner had to kick in an extra 55 million for the arena there would be no shortage of buyers kicking tires in my opinion.
Exactly. The $55 million wouldnt even be $55 million cash up front, just the way everything else is funded it's either an increase in the ticket surcharge or a bit more rent. Or hey you could make it $20 million less by dropping the Cities advertising fee.

Halibut is offline  
Old
05-13-2013, 06:08 PM
  #998
raab
Where's the Hart?
 
raab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,701
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halibut View Post
Put more money into the deal, it's that simple.

He's getting a sweetheart deal in this thing and getting all those extra sources of revenue. He should invest in the deal and be willing to make up at least part of the 55million shortfall. Of course he doesnt want to because he wants to invest in the side projects where he's going to really make his money.
And what if he doesn't have 55M more to put into the project? He's a business owner and he's already putting a lot of money up front into the deal. I don't know if people think Katz just has 3.3B dollars laying around or what but I'd be very surprised if he even had more then 2M available to him at anytime, let alone 55M.

raab is online now  
Old
05-13-2013, 06:14 PM
  #999
raab
Where's the Hart?
 
raab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,701
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
If there was I'm sure someone would step up and pull a Katz so to speak and do this.

Yet there hasn't been anyone stepping up and saying "you know, if Katz doesn't want this sweatheart deal I'll take it".
Well Katz has already put 200M into acquiring the team and if its gone no where but up you'd have to believe the team wold be valued at 225M now if he sold. Add in another 175M on top of that and your looking at 400M for a hockey team with the new arena. How many guys are that desperate to get a NHL team that they're willing to invest almost half a billion dollars into it?

raab is online now  
Old
05-13-2013, 06:22 PM
  #1000
Lewy
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 436
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by raab View Post
And what if he doesn't have 55M more to put into the project? He's a business owner and he's already putting a lot of money up front into the deal. I don't know if people think Katz just has 3.3B dollars laying around or what but I'd be very surprised if he even had more then 2M available to him at anytime, let alone 55M.
I bet you his line of credit could handle it... considering his net worth is what? Over *pinky finger to mouth* 1 Billion dollars?

Lewy is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:45 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.