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Bernier trade in offseason?

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Old
05-13-2013, 04:21 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post

Bernier will get dealt IMO just before or at the NHL Entry Draft.



Actually an offer sheet is a really good idea for a GM wanting a potential starting goalie without giving up much assets.

This is the RFA compensation levels for 2011-2012: http://thehockeywriters.com/2011-12-...nsation-rules/

The cap for next season is the same as in 2011-2012, so odds are the compensation chart will be similar or exactly the same. If someone were to offer $3.1 million for Bernier, that'd cost them only a 2nd round pick. However for $3.1 million, unless Bernier completely flops, that's not a terrible price and could be a bargain if he takes the reins and runs with it. Additionally, DL would be hard pressed to match that offer sheet because now we'd have a $3.1 million backup, and we can't trade him for at least 12 months after matching the offer sheet. That bid could handcuff DL without handcuffing the other team, financially or compensation wise. And a lot of teams still have their own 2nd.

DL will match up to the $3.5 comp level (assuming it has gone up from the $3.134ish) without any doubt in my mind. It gives us JB for another year and while it would make him expensive as a back up with JQ having just had one back surgery and us being in a win now mode it makes us allot better off all things considered.

It also gives us a year for the market to change and JB's value to continue to rise. We aren't in the Canucks situation but we do have the best 1-2 tandem in the NHL and that is a great asset to a team that built itself from the net out.

That said DL is a control freak and would do anything to maintain control of what happens with his best and most movable asset for as long as possible.

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05-13-2013, 04:29 PM
  #102
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Montreal.
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Makes zero sense whatsoever.
I'm assuming they trade Price.

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05-13-2013, 04:30 PM
  #103
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I'm assuming they trade Price.
That's quite the assumption. I don't see it happening. Going from Price to Bernier is quite a downgrade.

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05-13-2013, 04:31 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
DL will match up to the $3.5 comp level (assuming it has gone up from the $3.134ish) without any doubt in my mind. It gives us JB for another year and while it would make him expensive as a back up with JQ having just had one back surgery and us being in a win now mode it makes us allot better off all things considered.

It also gives us a year for the market to change and JB's value to continue to rise. We aren't in the Canucks situation but we do have the best 1-2 tandem in the NHL and that is a great asset to a team that built itself from the net out.

That said DL is a control freak and would do anything to maintain control of what happens with his best and most movable asset for as long as possible.
I would agree if the cap wasn't going down. But with the cap going down there is no way that he can afford to match an offer in the 3M range. It would mean loosing other assets because of it. We only have 13.9M next year. And we can pick up another 3.5 on LTIR for Mitchell if he isn't back. But we only have 14 signed. And paying approx 9M of your 64M cap on your goal is a very bad idea.

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05-13-2013, 04:32 PM
  #105
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I highly doubt any club will offer sheet Bernier at $3.5M. That's an outrageous amount to give to an untested goalie and I simply cannot see Lombardi willing to have that much cap space tied into a backup goalie, especially with the cap going down and with raises due to a number of roster players.

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05-13-2013, 04:34 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
That's quite the assumption. I don't see it happening. Going from Price to Bernier is quite a downgrade.
Well it's a wild-ass guess. Price isn't too popular or too happy there right now.

Whether it's quite a downgrade is dependent on the judgement of their scouts.

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05-13-2013, 04:47 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsanuri View Post
I would agree if the cap wasn't going down. But with the cap going down there is no way that he can afford to match an offer in the 3M range. It would mean loosing other assets because of it. We only have 13.9M next year. And we can pick up another 3.5 on LTIR for Mitchell if he isn't back. But we only have 14 signed. And paying approx 9M of your 64M cap on your goal is a very bad idea.
I am a little out of my element on this whole thing so I hope you can help me out (in all honesty by the way).

The cap for this coming season is $64m, same as last season isn't it? If so is it then going down to $60m for the 14/15 season? That is what I understand it to be and am basing my opinion(s) on. If we match any offsheet for JB up to the $3.5m range then we have him signed to a very reasonable contract for a starter and are only on the hook for him until the end of next season when the cap drops.

That will only make JB even more valuable (if we have him signed in the $3.5 range) come next offseason. In the meantime we have the best 1-2 tandem in the NHL for another season and will get top value for JB when the time comes too.

That is what I am thinking. Also, we will be continuing to add our own kids to fill the coming holes to our line up as we have to date so that will help us keep the cap under control too.

That is how I am seeing things but I give a ton of respect to what Kingsfan, you and others have to say on these things so I am keeping an open mind.

I can add this and take it with the great salt lake of salt but I have heard from one of our own scouts very recently that DL has a deal in place for JB that will answer all of our questions. I was also told that it is only a tentative thing so anything can happen but that "DL values Berny (jb) as high as anyone else on the team).

I have to think that DL is going to get as close to what he wants for JB or he will keep him until he does or simply can't.

Its all dutch chocolate to me.

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05-13-2013, 04:49 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Stupid Sexy Flanders View Post
Well it's a wild-ass guess. Price isn't too popular or too happy there right now.

Whether it's quite a downgrade is dependent on the judgement of their scouts.
I also disagree that going from Price to JB is all that much of a downgrade in anything but experience.

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05-13-2013, 05:02 PM
  #109
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Honestly, this looks like a fair proposal to me. The first one I've seen in a while, actually. Hedberg has another year left on his contract, and will hold the fort for Martin Jones. Muzzin is expendable imo.
9th overall is too high for Bernier and Muzzin is not needed in New Jersey as they the team is stacked with D at NHL level and prospect level.

The best LA would get from New Jersey is 39th overall + Hedberg for Bernier. Even still that is unlikely as our GM said in the end of season press conference, that the team is fine with going with Brodeur + Hedberg next season - They are both contracted with NMC. And of course Hedberg would have to waive his trade clause.

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05-13-2013, 05:31 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I am a little out of my element on this whole thing so I hope you can help me out (in all honesty by the way).

The cap for this coming season is $64m, same as last season isn't it? If so is it then going down to $60m for the 14/15 season? That is what I understand it to be and am basing my opinion(s) on. If we match any offsheet for JB up to the $3.5m range then we have him signed to a very reasonable contract for a starter and are only on the hook for him until the end of next season when the cap drops.

That will only make JB even more valuable (if we have him signed in the $3.5 range) come next offseason. In the meantime we have the best 1-2 tandem in the NHL for another season and will get top value for JB when the time comes too.

That is what I am thinking. Also, we will be continuing to add our own kids to fill the coming holes to our line up as we have to date so that will help us keep the cap under control too.

That is how I am seeing things but I give a ton of respect to what Kingsfan, you and others have to say on these things so I am keeping an open mind.

I can add this and take it with the great salt lake of salt but I have heard from one of our own scouts very recently that DL has a deal in place for JB that will answer all of our questions. I was also told that it is only a tentative thing so anything can happen but that "DL values Berny (jb) as high as anyone else on the team).

I have to think that DL is going to get as close to what he wants for JB or he will keep him until he does or simply can't.

Its all dutch chocolate to me.
We don't know what the cap will be in 14/15 it will go back to the formula. And this years cap was 70.2M last year was 64.3M which is the same as next year. So it depends on what revenue is for next year. But it is all about having that much salary tied up in your goal. It's almost 15% of your total salary. With what JQ is going to get starting next year we want our backup in the 2M range no more. And because of where JB is at it will no longer be DL choice really. We trade him or he probably signs an offer sheet and we take what we get.

As to calling JB a starter. Most of us think he is able to be just that. But it's unproven and at 3.5M he would be in and around the top 20 in cap hit for goalies. And there will be at least one proven starter on the market coming out of Vancouver.

DL will take the best offer he can get on draft day for him otherwise he looses all control over what happens. And it's better to know what your are getting even if you aren't happy that take the chance.

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05-13-2013, 05:38 PM
  #111
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Strait would be the only one who would be considered in a deal. Hamonic, Martin, Cizikas, Tavares and Okposo are the untouchables on the Isles. I am not counting the prospects but these guys are the core vets.
Then what would you add to Strait?

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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
DL will match up to the $3.5 comp level (assuming it has gone up from the $3.134ish) without any doubt in my mind. It gives us JB for another year and while it would make him expensive as a back up with JQ having just had one back surgery and us being in a win now mode it makes us allot better off all things considered.

It also gives us a year for the market to change and JB's value to continue to rise. We aren't in the Canucks situation but we do have the best 1-2 tandem in the NHL and that is a great asset to a team that built itself from the net out.

That said DL is a control freak and would do anything to maintain control of what happens with his best and most movable asset for as long as possible.
I'm curious how everyone thinks our cap situation next year is going to work. Cap wise, next year is a perfect storm for Bernier to get a RFA offer sheet.

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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
I highly doubt any club will offer sheet Bernier at $3.5M. That's an outrageous amount to give to an untested goalie and I simply cannot see Lombardi willing to have that much cap space tied into a backup goalie, especially with the cap going down and with raises due to a number of roster players.
It's not really that outrageous. $3.1 million only costs you a 2nd rounder, and if you don't like the results, you can let him go after the season assuming it's only a one year deal.

If it works out well though you can extend him, and likely do so at a decent salary since he'll only have one year as a starter.

But $3.1 million for DL is, as you said, an outrageous amount for a backup goalie, which is all he'd be here. DL wouldn't have much choice but to let Bernier go.

It's why I think DL takes the best offer he can get at or before the draft.

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05-13-2013, 06:00 PM
  #112
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I also disagree that going from Price to JB is all that much of a downgrade in anything but experience.
You really think so? Halak was looked at as a goalie who was just about equal to Price and his return was okay, and that is with Halak having more experience at the time of his trade, coming off a spectacular performance during the playoffs.

Would you move Quick to make room for Bernier? That's what I'd contrast as what Montreal would be doing if they made such an irrational decision. It falls in line with something Mike Milbury would do, trading Roberto Luongo because he could draft Rick DiPietro.

There is more than just experience separating Price and Bernier. And I'd ignore what Habs fans/media write about Price. It's the same city that chased Patrick Roy out of town.

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05-13-2013, 06:11 PM
  #113
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Going from Price to Bernier would be a failure of epic proportions for MTL. Price is far, far superior. Bernier has great potential and has shown he can be consistent at the NHL level, but he's still unproven as a starter, of course.

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05-13-2013, 06:20 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Luc Gretzky View Post
Could this be massaged to work?

To NJ - Bernier + Muzzin

To LA - 1st (9th overall) + Hedberg
I would be a little surprised if the Devils were in the market for Bernier right now. It'd be nice to have that seamless Favre/Rodgers transition, but I think there's a bigger void in our forward pipeline.

At this point, I'm anticipating the Devils having a stopgap free agent option when Brodeur decides to hang them up. It's not the most elegant option, but there's usually a decent UFA goalie or two who lose out on the proverbial game of musical chairs.

Looking at the summer of 2014, there are some proven guys possibly hitting UFA: Miller, Halak, Hiller, Dubnyk, Crawford. And who knows if any older European goalies suddenly emerge; Finnish goalie Antti Raanta seems to be this year's new hotness.

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05-13-2013, 06:38 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Then what would you add to Strait?



I'm curious how everyone thinks our cap situation next year is going to work. Cap wise, next year is a perfect storm for Bernier to get a RFA offer sheet.



It's not really that outrageous. $3.1 million only costs you a 2nd rounder, and if you don't like the results, you can let him go after the season assuming it's only a one year deal.

If it works out well though you can extend him, and likely do so at a decent salary since he'll only have one year as a starter.

But $3.1 million for DL is, as you said, an outrageous amount for a backup goalie, which is all he'd be here. DL wouldn't have much choice but to let Bernier go.

It's why I think DL takes the best offer he can get at or before the draft.
We could probably send you Strait, Ullstrom and a 3rd rounder.

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05-13-2013, 06:46 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Luc Gretzky View Post
Could this be massaged to work?

To NJ - Bernier + Muzzin

To LA - 1st (9th overall) + Hedberg
Hedberg has a NTC, and I don't seeing him waiving it to go to the Kings for even less playing time than he would get with the Devils. Plus, with the draft being held in New Jersey this year, I don't see them moving that pick.

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05-13-2013, 06:57 PM
  #117
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Hedberg has a NTC, and I don't seeing him waiving it to go to the Kings for even less playing time than he would get with the Devils. Plus, with the draft being held in New Jersey this year, I don't see them moving that pick.
I always wonder what kind of pressure there is on the host team to do something to 'wow' the home crowd. Seems like we've had a recent streak of host teams either trading up and/or making a big trade. Although when the Kings hosted in 2010, I think Lombardi said their initial plan was to trade back.

Back in 1996, the Blues were hosting the draft but Mike Keenan wanted to deal his first rounder for Jason Allison. Ownership wouldn't let him do the deal because they didn't want to "let down" fans in attendance. With the pick, they drafted Marty Reasoner.

Islanders might be the Kings best option. Young team that's on the upswing and they could use a young #1. They have a fair amount of depth in the pipeline and could afford to deal a pick/prospect.

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05-13-2013, 07:14 PM
  #118
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I always wonder what kind of pressure there is on the host team to do something to 'wow' the home crowd. Seems like we've had a recent streak of host teams either trading up and/or making a big trade. Although when the Kings hosted in 2010, I think Lombardi said their initial plan was to trade back.

Back in 1996, the Blues were hosting the draft but Mike Keenan wanted to deal his first rounder for Jason Allison. Ownership wouldn't let him do the deal because they didn't want to "let down" fans in attendance. With the pick, they drafted Marty Reasoner.

Islanders might be the Kings best option. Young team that's on the upswing and they could use a young #1. They have a fair amount of depth in the pipeline and could afford to deal a pick/prospect.
As someone who watched Reasoner torture us all year with his play. HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

And I thought the Isles ownership sucked.

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05-13-2013, 07:20 PM
  #119
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We could probably send you Strait, Ullstrom and a 3rd rounder.
I'd likely pass. We don't need more bodies upfront unless it's someone that can replace King or Nolan's size, hence Martin's appeal. Strait and a 2nd and a 3rd?

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05-13-2013, 07:28 PM
  #120
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...It's the same city that chased Patrick Roy out of town.
Yeah that's part of my logic. They'll bail on Price sooner or later. Probably sooner. Bernier will be attractive.

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05-13-2013, 07:28 PM
  #121
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You really think so? Halak was looked at as a goalie who was just about equal to Price and his return was okay, and that is with Halak having more experience at the time of his trade, coming off a spectacular performance during the playoffs.

Would you move Quick to make room for Bernier? That's what I'd contrast as what Montreal would be doing if they made such an irrational decision. It falls in line with something Mike Milbury would do, trading Roberto Luongo because he could draft Rick DiPietro.

There is more than just experience separating Price and Bernier. And I'd ignore what Habs fans/media write about Price. It's the same city that chased Patrick Roy out of town.
My comparison is based on overall skill of the two players. Other then that you may be perfectly right. I see JB for what he is and that is one of the most positionally sound goalies in the NHL today. He still has a few things to perfect but he is on his way and the only real way to move forward is by being a starter. I would take JB over Price.

I would move Luongo to keep Schnieder if that helps. As for the Quick Jb thing it would not only be unfair to move Quick over JB but I also think that Quick fits our style of play a bit better. If Quick were out (god forbid) for a serious amount of time I would be fine with JB stepping in if he had to. If it were for a full season it would be fine with me.
That is as close to an answer to your question that I can give really.

JB is the better goalie over Price in almost every way imo. Where he isn't experience will make up for the differences. That is what I was referring to.

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05-13-2013, 07:31 PM
  #122
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We don't know what the cap will be in 14/15 it will go back to the formula. And this years cap was 70.2M last year was 64.3M which is the same as next year. So it depends on what revenue is for next year. But it is all about having that much salary tied up in your goal. It's almost 15% of your total salary. With what JQ is going to get starting next year we want our backup in the 2M range no more. And because of where JB is at it will no longer be DL choice really. We trade him or he probably signs an offer sheet and we take what we get.

As to calling JB a starter. Most of us think he is able to be just that. But it's unproven and at 3.5M he would be in and around the top 20 in cap hit for goalies. And there will be at least one proven starter on the market coming out of Vancouver.

DL will take the best offer he can get on draft day for him otherwise he looses all control over what happens. And it's better to know what your are getting even if you aren't happy that take the chance.
We have different opinions as to who/what JB is or will be and what DL is willing to pay in order to maintain the best possible goaltending tandem. You say that DL will not pay more than $2m, I say he will if he is left with no other options. I guess we will see.

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05-13-2013, 07:35 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Then what would you add to Strait?



I'm curious how everyone thinks our cap situation next year is going to work. Cap wise, next year is a perfect storm for Bernier to get a RFA offer sheet.



It's not really that outrageous. $3.1 million only costs you a 2nd rounder, and if you don't like the results, you can let him go after the season assuming it's only a one year deal.

If it works out well though you can extend him, and likely do so at a decent salary since he'll only have one year as a starter.

But $3.1 million for DL is, as you said, an outrageous amount for a backup goalie, which is all he'd be here. DL wouldn't have much choice but to let Bernier go.

It's why I think DL takes the best offer he can get at or before the draft.
I am curious too. I mean allot of us are making it sound like DL is some ******** first year GM that hasn't planned for every scenario including either having to sign JB to a short term contract for over $3.1m or having to allow him to walk via an offer sheet that would only net us a 1st and a 3rd pick.

The guy is a cap guru and I am certain we will not only get what we want out of JB but also end up fine with regards to our cap. I haven't seen DL do anything to make me believe otherwise.

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05-13-2013, 07:37 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by tsanuri View Post
We don't know what the cap will be in 14/15 it will go back to the formula. And this years cap was 70.2M last year was 64.3M which is the same as next year. So it depends on what revenue is for next year. But it is all about having that much salary tied up in your goal. It's almost 15% of your total salary. With what JQ is going to get starting next year we want our backup in the 2M range no more. And because of where JB is at it will no longer be DL choice really. We trade him or he probably signs an offer sheet and we take what we get.

As to calling JB a starter. Most of us think he is able to be just that. But it's unproven and at 3.5M he would be in and around the top 20 in cap hit for goalies. And there will be at least one proven starter on the market coming out of Vancouver.

DL will take the best offer he can get on draft day for him otherwise he looses all control over what happens. And it's better to know what your are getting even if you aren't happy that take the chance.
I was referring to this coming season and the next, thanks for the update.

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05-13-2013, 07:58 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I am curious too. I mean allot of us are making it sound like DL is some ******** first year GM that hasn't planned for every scenario including either having to sign JB to a short term contract for over $3.1m or having to allow him to walk via an offer sheet that would only net us a 1st and a 3rd pick.

The guy is a cap guru and I am certain we will not only get what we want out of JB but also end up fine with regards to our cap. I haven't seen DL do anything to make me believe otherwise.
It all depends on how much Voynov wants to get paid. Hopefully he will take a bridge 2-year deal, this way the cap will rise before he gets his big payday. Dean needs to get Voynov under contract as soon as possible so he knows how much cap space he has to play with to replace Scuderi, Penner and Regehr. Penner probably gets replaced by a player on his ELC.

The Kings can go over the cap by as much as Mitchell's cap hit in case he can't play next season, but Scuderi and Regehr are both UFAs long before Mitchell's status will be known. Scuderi might sign with another team because the Kings can't offer as much to retain him. Regehr will have to take a slight pay cut to stay in LA.

Dean/Solomon have some tough negotiations this off season. Not the best off season to have the cap fall.

Bernier at anything over $2.5 million is just too much cap space. Kings need a backup that makes around $1 million.

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