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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 4)

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Old
05-13-2013, 05:25 PM
  #326
Issacar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
This is not against Price, but against the argument that we need to be patient and he's too young to win next season... He'll be 26. A (large?) majority of goalies that won the Cup in the last 30 years, won their first Cup at that age or younger. This is not only Patrick Roy. Somewhere between a half dozen and a dozen were in their early 20s. Vernon, Barasso, Fuhr, Brodeur, Osgood, Richter, etc... Anderson, like Tim Thomas, Belfour are the exception not the norm.
So, you're saying that 6/30th to 12/30th is the majority of the sample? Also Brodeur saw his first full NHL season at 24 years old (also won the Stanley Cup that year) on one of the most dominating defensively team of the modern era.

Can we start looking back at the teams Price had so far and can we say they pale in comparison to teh same teams Brodeur had at that point in time?

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05-13-2013, 05:25 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
This is not against Price, but against the argument that we need to be patient and he's too young to win next season... He'll be 26. A (large?) majority of goalies that won the Cup in the last 30 years, won their first Cup at that age or younger. This is not only Patrick Roy. Somewhere between a half dozen and a dozen where in their early 20s. Vernon, Barasso, Fuhr, Brodeur, Osgood, Richter, etc... Anderson, like Tim Thomas, Belfour are the exception not the norm.
Teams win championships. Some of the goaltenders you mention are not that wonderful.

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Old
05-13-2013, 05:38 PM
  #328
Erik Estrada
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Originally Posted by Issacar View Post
So, you're saying that 6/30th to 12/30th is the majority of the sample? Also Brodeur saw his first full NHL season at 24 years old (also won the Stanley Cup that year) on one of the most dominating defensively team of the modern era.

Can we start looking back at the teams Price had so far and can we say they pale in comparison to teh same teams Brodeur had at that point in time?
It's not a different goalie every one of those 30 years. Some of those goalies won more than one Cup... But they won their first Cup in their early 20s. The number of different goalies that won a Cup in the last 30 years is closer to 12 than 30.

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05-13-2013, 05:46 PM
  #329
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People keep comparing Price's production at his current age to the production of other goalies at that age. But it's unfair.

Most goalies are not handed the starting role at 20. Price may be young, but he has the experience of a 5-6 year vet. The smart thing would be to compare him to goalies after their first 5 seasons.

What is most concerning (besides the comments) is there seems to be no progression from year 20 to year 26. "just relax"...OK...I can relax...but don't tell me the lack of progression over the years is not the least bit concerning.

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05-13-2013, 06:02 PM
  #330
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Lol carey price in montreal is history

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05-13-2013, 06:19 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Bieber fever View Post
Lol carey price in montreal is history
Thanks for letting us know Marc!

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Old
05-13-2013, 06:35 PM
  #332
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I'm starting to believe we will run him out of town and then we will be stuck with the next Jocelyn Thibault.

I hope we trade him for a nice package, not because I don't believe in him, but because I think he'll blossom wonderfully elsewhere, and he deserves it after all the constant bashing he's been through here.

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05-13-2013, 06:36 PM
  #333
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I don't get why there is so much arguing.

It's CLEAR that Price hasn't played up to expectations. Bergevin said it today and Price said it a few days ago!

Why are people arguing this point!

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05-13-2013, 06:37 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Who are you talking about and which seasons are you talking about???

If you're talking about Carey, he's never had a season below .905 save %.
I'm talking about playoffs, I agree that my original comment was misleading.

I think all his playoffs were ,901 or under expect for one of them.

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05-13-2013, 06:37 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
And he's right.

That doesn't mean you trade away players because they haven't won for you. Esp when those players have played on **** teams and are 25 years old.

His first year he beats the Bruins and loses to the Flyers.
His second year he comes back too soon from injury and the team sucks.
Halak does his Ken Dryden impression and Price doesn't start
Price goes 7 games and almost beats the cup champs
Then there's this year where he goes down with an injury.

Not a whole lot to go on here man.
The point IS that there's not a whole lot to go on here, man.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It comes down to whether you think he's got the talent and mental makeup to be successful or not. The playoff records don't mean a whole lot to me. I think that he's good enough to take us to a cup if we surround him with a good team. If you don't think so, that's fair enough. But pointing to his playoff record isn't really going to change my mind on anything here.
I think he has the physical package to be a great goalie. Technically, and arguably mentally (if you're abandoning technique to overplay pucks, that's at least partially mental), though, he's still flawed. He shouldn't need one of the best teams around him to succeed, either. I think he's good enough if he actually commits to cleaning up the same flaws, with his leg/pad/5-hole control and overplaying pucks in pressure situations, that we were seeing 5 years ago. But it shouldn't be the playoff record that should set off the warning bells; it's the goals/results that we've seen and the statistics.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
And I do think that we'd regret dealing him. And if it happens and Price does find success, I guarantee you a lot of the folks trashing him will be blaming management for being stupid enough to trade him. That's how it works in Montreal.
Oh, I'm not even advocating trading him. I'd never trade based on swap of expectations for expectations, and there's always the complications in determining "value" (especially if draft picks are involved). I'd entertain a trade for/replacement with someone with adequate performance/experience to weigh in their favour, but there isn't exactly a long list of guys that I'd consider. Their likeliness of availability further reduces the list to pretty much no one at this time.

Doesn't mean I think Price is therefore above criticism, but then again I only spent a brief time among the cult level "In Price we Trust" followers (had the avatar, to boot!). Now he's simply another veteran with a value, measurable performance metrics, track record, and expectations - who just happens to play the most important position on the ice (imo) for my favourite team. Blow your police whistle every time you see some one go over the line with criticism if you like, but I'd expect you to spend equal effort trying to bring what you might call the "blanket apologists" back in line as well, and allow simple criticism to be met with simple discussion without all the harsh categorization.

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05-13-2013, 06:37 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Yes I did. I will agree that Desharnais shat the bed when it came to actually playing when there was something to play for. He's a smurf. Smurfs don't really play well in the POs. He has to pick up his game in future POs.

To say that he "sucks", that is a big stretch for me. If he's 3 inches taller, he's top 20 in league scoring.
Ok but he's not 3 inches taller so what's your point?

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Old
05-13-2013, 06:38 PM
  #337
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I'm personally of the opinion that Price will eventually end up on another team and be extremely successful. The people who wanted him out will say he was never going to win in Montreal and the people who wanted him to stay will wonder why they ever wasted time defending a goalie in Montreal since this city eats its young and eats its goaltenders.

If it isn't with Price, Montreal will eventually win a Cup with a cheap rental goaltender, probably a veteran who had no plans of staying in Montreal long term. After Price, I don't see Montreal continuing to grow excellent goalies on trees. Those days look over.

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Old
05-13-2013, 06:39 PM
  #338
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
People keep comparing Price's production at his current age to the production of other goalies at that age. But it's unfair.

Most goalies are not handed the starting role at 20. Price may be young, but he has the experience of a 5-6 year vet. The smart thing would be to compare him to goalies after their first 5 seasons.

What is most concerning (besides the comments) is there seems to be no progression from year 20 to year 26. "just relax"...OK...I can relax...but don't tell me the lack of progression over the years is not the least bit concerning.
There certainly has been progression. I'm not sure how you don't see this. He's had an inconsistent year, there's no dispute but I really don't get why people are concerned about this guy.

I really think we're fretting over something that isn't really an issue and we should be focusing on other things. Size up front. Big blueliner... that's what I want to see. I think dealing Price is a huge step backwards for us.

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Old
05-13-2013, 06:40 PM
  #339
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Ted Bird on Team690 said something hilarious today about Price.

He said (i'm paraphrasing here) "Carey Price said he needs to get better and must try to find a way to reach the next level. I guess that makes Carey Price a Price hater."

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Old
05-13-2013, 06:43 PM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
Ted Bird on Team690 said something hilarious today about Price.

He said (i'm paraphrasing here) "Carey Price said he needs to get better and must try to find a way to reach the next level. I guess that makes Carey Price a Price hater."
Good point. Bergevin said that Price could be much better than he was this year. Bergevin is a Price hater. But he said he has full confidence in him which also makes him a Price lover. So in reality he's a Price love and hater. New category.

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Old
05-13-2013, 06:47 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Good point. Bergevin said that Price could be much better than he was this year. Bergevin is a Price hater. But he said he has full confidence in him which also makes him a Price lover. So in reality he's a Price love and hater. New category.
How is that a good point?

Again, most of the team constantly replying to everything think that pointing out the other problems with the team along with Price's struggles is somehow a bad thing and that everything is on the goalie.

Fact is, Price could have been lights out spectacular and that wasn't going to get any more pucks in the net. Especially with the injuries, Desharnais playing top six and second powerplay, Therrien benching rookies, Therrien putting Markov on the ice for too much time and the team changing their regular style up in the post-season compared to the regular season.

The "We lost because we're not 6'4" guys are exactly the same as the "Blame it all on Price" guys. Pretty sure everything in their lives they explain as being just one thing going right or wrong.

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Old
05-13-2013, 06:50 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
How is that a good point?

Again, most of the team constantly replying to everything think that pointing out the other problems with the team along with Price's struggles is somehow a bad thing and that everything is on the goalie.

Fact is, Price could have been lights out spectacular and that wasn't going to get any more pucks in the net. Especially with the injuries, Desharnais playing top six and second powerplay, Therrien benching rookies, Therrien putting Markov on the ice for too much time and the team changing their regular style up in the post-season compared to the regular season.

The "We lost because we're not 6'4" guys are exactly the same as the "Blame it all on Price" guys. Pretty sure everything in their lives they explain as being just one thing going right or wrong.
Show me on quote where someone is blaming the entire series on Price. Everybody agrees that we could get bigger, better, meaner, more talented, etc ..

But Price SHAT the bed (among others on the team). Since he's the highest payed player and the so called "franchise player", he's #1 on the list of players who have to get better.

There are 11 players on my list of players who have to LEAVE the Habs for us to get better. Some you will agree with me, some you won't agree with me but that clearly means that I don't put Price as the ONLY reason that we sucked but he's ONE of the reasons!

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05-13-2013, 06:52 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
http://canadiens.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8471679

IMO, his stats say otherwise. 2.43 GAA and .916 Save %? That's average to you? Then what's good to you? 2.25 GAA and a .925 Save%.

IMO, average goaltending is 2.50 GAA and a .900 Save%. Carey Price played above average in 2011-12. Get your heads out of your *****.
This year, though, I think the league average SV% (38043 shots/41973 saves... "roughly") was 0.906, and Price had a 0.905. Dead on "average". League average GAA (3930 goals/1440 games... "roughly") was 2.73, Price's was 2.59. Again, pretty much dead on average (only 0.14 goals/game, or 1 goal over 7 or 8 games).

I'd agree that he was above average last year, though, and for a decent stretch of this year as well. It's not that we haven't seen the potential, it's that we haven't seen the consistency.

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05-13-2013, 07:04 PM
  #344
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there's absolutely NO ARGUMENT HERE!

Price played bad! He says it! Bergeving says it! IT'S OVER, It's well ESTABLISHED now that Price should and could be better. He didn't play up to expectations.

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05-13-2013, 07:40 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
There certainly has been progression. I'm not sure how you don't see this. He's had an inconsistent year, there's no dispute but I really don't get why people are concerned about this guy.

I really think we're fretting over something that isn't really an issue and we should be focusing on other things. Size up front. Big blueliner... that's what I want to see. I think dealing Price is a huge step backwards for us.
Where is the progression?

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05-13-2013, 07:42 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
How is that a good point?

Again, most of the team constantly replying to everything think that pointing out the other problems with the team along with Price's struggles is somehow a bad thing and that everything is on the goalie.

Fact is, Price could have been lights out spectacular and that wasn't going to get any more pucks in the net. Especially with the injuries, Desharnais playing top six and second powerplay, Therrien benching rookies, Therrien putting Markov on the ice for too much time and the team changing their regular style up in the post-season compared to the regular season.

The "We lost because we're not 6'4" guys are exactly the same as the "Blame it all on Price" guys. Pretty sure everything in their lives they explain as being just one thing going right or wrong.
What a terrible excuse. If Price is lights out we are up 3-1 going into game 5. Stop it.

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Old
05-13-2013, 08:13 PM
  #347
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Where is the progression?
Before going into the ditch the guy was top five in save percentage over the past three seasons. He'd logged more games than anyone in the league not named Pekke Rinne and was great in his last playoff appearance. And he did this on weak teams.

Nobody had a problem with him until he went off the cliff at the end of this year. Then he slumped and people freaked out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
This year, though, I think the league average SV% (38043 shots/41973 saves... "roughly") was 0.906, and Price had a 0.905. Dead on "average". League average GAA (3930 goals/1440 games... "roughly") was 2.73, Price's was 2.59. Again, pretty much dead on average (only 0.14 goals/game, or 1 goal over 7 or 8 games).

I'd agree that he was above average last year, though, and for a decent stretch of this year as well. It's not that we haven't seen the potential, it's that we haven't seen the consistency.
He's been very consistent. Again, the last few weeks were bad. I don't think anyone would dispute this but he's been very consistent over the past couple of years.
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Good point. Bergevin said that Price could be much better than he was this year. Bergevin is a Price hater. But he said he has full confidence in him which also makes him a Price lover. So in reality he's a Price love and hater. New category.
Dude seriously, why the hell are you talking in terms of lovers and haters? Has anyone accused you of being a hater? I really don't get this silliness that you have to be one way or the other.

Reasonable people can disagree on players. Your posts have been pretty reasonable even if I do disagree with a lot of what you say. Nobody looks at your posts and labels you a hater... so please stop with this nonsense.

I have zero problem with anyone who doesn't believe in Price (or any other player for that matter) what I have a problem with is the mindless ravings that we've seen by some of the freakshows in this thread. When you've got guys showing up named Careycosts... yeah, I'd say it's fair to call him a hater.


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Old
05-13-2013, 08:32 PM
  #348
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there's absolutely NO ARGUMENT HERE!

Price played bad! He says it! Bergeving says it! IT'S OVER, It's well ESTABLISHED now that Price should and could be better. He didn't play up to expectations.
Obviously. Is he going to come out and say ''No, I played totally fine, you guys are lunatics''
Don't read much into the comments they make.

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Old
05-13-2013, 08:56 PM
  #349
Traitor8
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Obviously. Is he going to come out and say ''No, I played totally fine, you guys are lunatics''
Don't read much into the comments they make.
So what are you saying, he said it just to say it and he didn't really mean it?

What are you going to say next ..he just said he didn't play well, he didn't really mean it. In reality, he played well ?

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05-13-2013, 10:05 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
there's absolutely NO ARGUMENT HERE!

Price played bad! He says it! Bergeving says it! IT'S OVER, It's well ESTABLISHED now that Price should and could be better. He didn't play up to expectations.
were you expecting them to say anything else after being eliminated?

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