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Old
05-13-2013, 10:16 AM
  #226
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Outside of Streit, I don't think anyone is really that good.

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05-13-2013, 10:53 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by AintLifeGrand View Post
Victor Stalberg at $4.0 mil per season is lunacy. Wouldn't pay more than 2 mil for that guy
remember its not our money.

as long as paying player "X" a certain amount of money doesnt prevent us from signing (or re-signing) a more important player "Y" later, then would you rather have an asset we need or have the owners have a little more money in their pocket?

Everyone "overpays" for UFAs. If we want one, we will have to overpay. If they fill a need and their salary doesnt put us in cap trouble(or internal budget trouble) then i have no problem with it

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05-13-2013, 12:35 PM
  #228
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Ufa seems like a total waste. Guys like stalberg and whatnot will do nothing for us but add another one of many forwards we already have.

The only two free agents I would pursue are Horton and streit. If neither happens for not a ridiculous amount of money, we turn our heads to trades. Plain and simple.

Ufa's suck this season. If poile gets stalberg as replacement for erat, and says he is happy with that, we are in for a long and miserable season boys.

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Old
05-13-2013, 02:35 PM
  #229
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If Poile could get Vanek to sign an extension for 3-5 years 6-7 mil per year, he should go after him. I would not move Josi, Wilson, or 2013 1st. But otherwise, open the cupboards - Blum or Ellis, ekholm, 2 of those three, with 2014 1st, plus hellberg, with a guy like Watson / leipisc

We have plenty of assets that are movable and valuable.

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05-13-2013, 04:48 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
We have plenty of assets that are movable and valuable.
I don't know if we have that many moveable assets - assuming we keep #4 pick and Forsberg is not available.

Blum looks like a bust - maybe a low end 2nd pairing guy at best. He could still blossom here, but I don't see him as a hot trade chip.

Ellis looks like a PP specialist/3rd pairing guy at best.

Watson looks good, but I don't think he's a particulary high end guy.

Aberg, Sissons, Leipsic, Budish, Hellberg, Ekholm are a solid but unspectacular guys who's potential is of greater value than thier trade value at this point.

As for the roster - unless we're willing to move a Colin Wilson or Josi, Beck, or Bourque- there's really not much of value there either (assuming the vets are no-go's).

If a disgruntled Martin Erat returned a guy like Filip Forsberg, I'm afraid any deal that brings in true #1 line forward (or at least a guy who's a good bet to score 20-25G) is going to cost more than what we can offer - especially if we get into a bidding war.

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05-13-2013, 05:13 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
remember its not our money.

as long as paying player "X" a certain amount of money doesnt prevent us from signing (or re-signing) a more important player "Y" later, then would you rather have an asset we need or have the owners have a little more money in their pocket?

Everyone "overpays" for UFAs. If we want one, we will have to overpay. If they fill a need and their salary doesnt put us in cap trouble(or internal budget trouble) then i have no problem with it
Depends on the term. Stalberg at $4M for 2 years is one thing, at $4M for 5 years is another. It's ok to overpay when we have the space, but overpaying for too many players, and for the wrong length can handcuff our ability to make moves later. Teams like Philly, NYR, etc... can get away with that because they can bury contracts and eat buyouts, we can't.

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05-13-2013, 05:50 PM
  #232
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RD I think you are underestimating the value of our players. The Marian Gaborik deal should be a solid comparable in terms of value. Just bc Watson didn't score like an all star as an emergency call up does not erase his value as a prospect.

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05-13-2013, 06:02 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
RD I think you are underestimating the value of our players. The Marian Gaborik deal should be a solid comparable in terms of value. Just bc Watson didn't score like an all star as an emergency call up does not erase his value as a prospect.
Even if he is underestimating the value a little, Watson isn't really comparable to Brassard, if you're looking at the Gaborik deal. The closest comparable we have to that part of the Gaborik deal would be Wilson.

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05-13-2013, 06:32 PM
  #234
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Even if he is underestimating the value a little, Watson isn't really comparable to Brassard, if you're looking at the Gaborik deal. The closest comparable we have to that part of the Gaborik deal would be Wilson.
Brassard was an under achieving 2nd line center for the jackets for years. Wilson is not a comparable at all. Wilson was emerging and evolving. Brassard showed no inclination of improving. What has happened since is irrelevant.

But to clarify, Watson isn't a comparable to Brassard who was an NhL roster player for several years. I was merely pointing out that Watson isn't chopped liver and I think you are undervaluing our prospects to some degree. In an unrelated statement, I was saying the Gaborik deal could be a comparable in terms of value, not the Erat deal which was a deadline deal on an extremely affordable contract with less cash than actual cap hit. Those deals are not comparable IMO. Make sense?

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05-13-2013, 07:22 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
Brassard was an under achieving 2nd line center for the jackets for years. Wilson is not a comparable at all. Wilson was emerging and evolving. Brassard showed no inclination of improving. What has happened since is irrelevant.

But to clarify, Watson isn't a comparable to Brassard who was an NhL roster player for several years. I was merely pointing out that Watson isn't chopped liver and I think you are undervaluing our prospects to some degree. In an unrelated statement, I was saying the Gaborik deal could be a comparable in terms of value, not the Erat deal which was a deadline deal on an extremely affordable contract with less cash than actual cap hit. Those deals are not comparable IMO. Make sense?
I might be undervaluing our guys a little bit, but if we get forced into a bidding war for a guy like Vanek or Bobby Ryan, I don't think we have the ammo.

While I like Watson and think he's got a nice future, but GM's are going to want at least a Forsberg-type high end prospect if they're going to give up the 1st-line scorer we need. I don't think we could put together a package centered around Watson that wouldn't be beaten by someone else.

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Old
05-13-2013, 08:18 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
Brassard was an under achieving 2nd line center for the jackets for years. Wilson is not a comparable at all. Wilson was emerging and evolving. Brassard showed no inclination of improving. What has happened since is irrelevant.

But to clarify, Watson isn't a comparable to Brassard who was an NhL roster player for several years. I was merely pointing out that Watson isn't chopped liver and I think you are undervaluing our prospects to some degree. In an unrelated statement, I was saying the Gaborik deal could be a comparable in terms of value, not the Erat deal which was a deadline deal on an extremely affordable contract with less cash than actual cap hit. Those deals are not comparable IMO. Make sense?
I don't really agree with your assessment of Brassard at all. He was underachieving in perhaps the sense that 36, 47, 41 points is less than you would hope from a #6 overall pick (and a 2nd line center), but his production was very similar to what Wilson's is at a similar age and point in their career, and I would contend that he still has the ability and potential to be a good 2nd line center. I would agree that Wilson is looking to be the better player, but only if he continues to improve at the rate he showed during this season.

I think I undervalue prospects to a certain extent, but only because they tend to be significantly overvalued by a large section of our fanbase. However, I don't think Watson is a poor prospect, or lacks value, at all.

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Old
05-14-2013, 02:11 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
Ufa seems like a total waste. Guys like stalberg and whatnot will do nothing for us but add another one of many forwards we already have.

The only two free agents I would pursue are Horton and streit. If neither happens for not a ridiculous amount of money, we turn our heads to trades. Plain and simple.

Ufa's suck this season. If poile gets stalberg as replacement for erat, and says he is happy with that, we are in for a long and miserable season boys.
Staalberg put up 22 goals in limited 3rd line minutes. No player on the Preds has every done that to my recollection. Hartnell would be the closest comparable in 2006, but he was getting a decent amount of PP time.

Staalbergs fast, defensively responsible, with offensive upside. At worst he's a younger David Legwand. At best, he has more offensive ability when given a bigger role. When DL played on the 3rd line for the only extended stretch in his career, he had a 40 game goal drought.

I can't think of any player whose numbers have dropped when they've been moved in a scoringline role. Granted some don't belong there on a long term basis-- Radek Bonk, Patrick Kjelleberg, Horcoff, Garbosiski, etc -- but they almost always see a bump in production.

I'd gladly grab Staalberg at 4m over SK or Gaustad at 3 million.

Yes, the pickings are thin, but what are the other choices? Hope Austin Watson turns into a 30g player? Or do we keep rebuilding (read: tanking)? Which might not be a horrible option-- we certainly aren't close to contending.

I do still like Horton, but he had a solid 1st rd which may drive up his price and increase Boston's desire to resign him. We'll see what happens the rest of the way with him and Staalberg-- it will play a key factor in what happens with them in UFA (see Joel Ward).

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05-14-2013, 02:22 PM
  #238
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If Hortons round one performance will drive up his price will Josi's performance drive up his cost as well???? Just sayin.. DP needs to signe some people before he can even look at adding pieces. And he better lock Josi up long term.

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05-14-2013, 02:28 PM
  #239
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If Hortons round one performance will drive up his price will Josi's performance drive up his cost as well???? Just sayin.. DP needs to signe some people before he can even look at adding pieces. And he better lock Josi up long term.
He needs to do both. That's one of Poile's problems, he gets fixated on doing one thing (ie Weber arbitration) and he leaves other things left undone.

WC are irrelevant and Josi is RFA.

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05-14-2013, 02:30 PM
  #240
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Staalberg put up 22 goals in limited 3rd line minutes. No player on the Preds has every done that to my recollection. Hartnell would be the closest comparable in 2006, but he was getting a decent amount of PP time.

Staalbergs fast, defensively responsible, with offensive upside. At worst he's a younger David Legwand. At best, he has more offensive ability when given a bigger role. When DL played on the 3rd line for the only extended stretch in his career, he had a 40 game goal drought.

I can't think of any player whose numbers have dropped when they've been moved in a scoringline role. Granted some don't belong there on a long term basis-- Radek Bonk, Patrick Kjelleberg, Horcoff, Garbosiski, etc -- but they almost always see a bump in production.

I'd gladly grab Staalberg at 4m over SK or Gaustad at 3 million.

Yes, the pickings are thin, but what are the other choices? Hope Austin Watson turns into a 30g player? Or do we keep rebuilding (read: tanking)? Which might not be a horrible option-- we certainly aren't close to contending.

I do still like Horton, but he had a solid 1st rd which may drive up his price and increase Boston's desire to resign him. We'll see what happens the rest of the way with him and Staalberg-- it will play a key factor in what happens with them in UFA (see Joel Ward).
This doesn't factor in at all that he plays behind significant offensive firepower in Chicago, and draws favorable matchups as a result. I would wager that he takes a bigger hit in production here, due to the tougher defensive matchups he'd draw in a top 6 role, than he would an increase due to greater ToI.

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Old
05-14-2013, 02:37 PM
  #241
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This doesn't factor in at all that he plays behind significant offensive firepower in Chicago, and draws favorable matchups as a result. I would wager that he takes a bigger hit in production here, due to the tougher defensive matchups he'd draw in a top 6 role, than he would an increase due to greater ToI.
Staalberg playing on the 3rd line in Nashville will likely face the same guys he did playing on the 3rd line in Chicago.

Yes it would be likely he'll face "tougher" players in a scoringline role, but so did Garboski, Kjellberg, Bonk, Horcoff, etc.

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05-14-2013, 02:43 PM
  #242
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He needs to do both. That's one of Poile's problems, he gets fixated on doing one thing (ie Weber arbitration) and he leaves other things left undone.

WC are irrelevant and Josi is RFA.


Not sure if its DP's style or just working within the budget. He has always had a slim margin and now hes faced with 16 players under contract two being Rask and Smith who we really do not know if they will even be on the tem in Oct. DP has 17.5 mil to the cap which we all know he will not exceed 61 or 62 mil. He still has to sign Josi, Spaling and make decisions on a pile of others including Blum and Bartley. The payroll is going to be tighter than most think. There will have to be a couple guys moved out to go after upgrades or the numbers will not work. If Smith is bought out the essentially DP will have 17 mil and 14 players on the roster. Josi will knock off 4.5 leaving 12.5 to finish off the team. If he signs a 5 mil F/A then it will be near impossible to fill the roster without leaving big talent gaps on both sides of the ice.

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05-14-2013, 02:47 PM
  #243
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Not sure if its DP's style or just working within the budget.
After Weber's arbitration, Poile was asked where things stood with resigning Suter, he said he didn't have the time to deal with it because of the work on Weber's arbitration.

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05-14-2013, 03:28 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Staalberg playing on the 3rd line in Nashville will likely face the same guys he did playing on the 3rd line in Chicago.

Yes it would be likely he'll face "tougher" players in a scoringline role, but so did Garboski, Kjellberg, Bonk, Horcoff, etc.
I don't see Stalberg leaving Chicago if he's willing to sign for 3rd line money. I also think several teams will take a gamble on him being more than that and up the ante accordingly. Not sure why he signs here unless we're signing him for a top 6 role and $$$, which I believe would be a mistake.

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05-14-2013, 03:30 PM
  #245
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After Weber's arbitration, Poile was asked where things stood with resigning Suter, he said he didn't have the time to deal with it because of the work on Weber's arbitration.
That makes an assumption that Suter was willing to re-sign at that point, which, considering everything that has happened, is a stretch.

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05-14-2013, 03:38 PM
  #246
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That makes an assumption that Suter was willing to re-sign at that point, which, considering everything that has happened, is a stretch.
Like taking Weber to arbitration? You have to make assumptions when you don't make the effort.

Also, after Weber was named captain and expressed desire to be in Nashville for the long-term, Poile was asked about the extension... he said to call him old fashion but he'll meet with his agent when they are in the same town.

Point being, I don't all the sudden expect Poile to start tackling things left and right. Although, I think he had a rude awakening to his style the past 2 years.

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05-14-2013, 03:56 PM
  #247
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Chicago is not in good shape when it comes to the cap next season. I do not see a way for them to keep Stalberg without buying out one of their higher contracts and that won't happen.

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05-14-2013, 04:07 PM
  #248
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How many third line guys go into free agency, sign a big fat contract to be a top 6 forward and don't produce or produce? Would love to see examples of this to debate the value of a guy like Stalberg.

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05-14-2013, 04:53 PM
  #249
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How many third line guys go into free agency, sign a big fat contract to be a top 6 forward and don't produce or produce? Would love to see examples of this to debate the value of a guy like Stalberg.
leino comes to mind

and legwand

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05-14-2013, 04:55 PM
  #250
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How many third line guys go into free agency, sign a big fat contract to be a top 6 forward and don't produce or produce? Would love to see examples of this to debate the value of a guy like Stalberg.
You'll be hard-pressed to find any 3rd liner who scored 22 goals with no pp time.

Now you might find someone who was playing in prime conditions and super motivated during their contract year and ultimately reverted back to their 3rd line ways...

Hartnell might one of the few good comparables. He was playing 2/3rd line minutes with us.

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