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The Vanek Thread

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Old
05-13-2013, 08:47 PM
  #551
Djp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
How about this? It was posted on the Sabres' board last week:

To Buffalo:
Nashville's 1st round pick, 4th overall, 2013
Ryan Ellis, D

To Nashville:
Buffalo's 1st round pick, 8th overall, 2013
Thomas Vanek, LW

...Vanek +8th >>>4th ....Ellis doe not balance that out. I may think about it if it was the Min #16 pick instead of #8.

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05-13-2013, 08:55 PM
  #552
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Originally Posted by SabresHockey66 View Post
Enroth/Hackett is not a sure thing. That deal is excellent value for Buffalo and I think a smart GM would take it (which is why I am not sure Darcy would). Picking 7 and 8 this year would be awesome and potentially allow us to move up to 4, or get two excellent players if we stand pat. Dubnyk may be a downgrade to Miller but he is much more of a sure thing than Hackett at this point, who has upside but proven little. It also gives us another 1st next year to go along with our 1st and three 2nds. And MPS.

You would say no? Very short sighted. You are not taking the value of years of team control into account with 2 firsts and MPS vs 1 year each of Miller and Vanek.

The issue with Hackett....you have got to be able to see hm play at the NHL level since 13/14 is hs last year of waiver exemption.

If they take back Dubnyk then Another goalie needs to be moved. Dubnyk could be flipped to another team.

I have a hgh level f confidence n hacketts ability.

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05-13-2013, 08:56 PM
  #553
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I saw on the Ryan thread that st Louis is villing to give up shattenkirk ....would they do that for Vanek...they should.

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05-13-2013, 09:29 PM
  #554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djp View Post
...Vanek +8th >>>4th ....Ellis doe not balance that out. I may think about it if it was the Min #16 pick instead of #8.
Barkov >>> 1 year of Vanek

the end

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05-13-2013, 09:38 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by Djp View Post
...Vanek +8th >>>4th ....Ellis doe not balance that out. I may think about it if it was the Min #16 pick instead of #8.
Let me restate it:

Barkov and Ellis for Vanek and Zadarov.

Deal?

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05-13-2013, 09:43 PM
  #556
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Sounds as if he'd like to sign with Minnesota after next year.

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05-13-2013, 09:45 PM
  #557
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djp View Post
...Vanek +8th >>>4th ....Ellis doe not balance that out. I may think about it if it was the Min #16 pick instead of #8.
I disagree. Vanek with 1 year left + 8th overall is fair value for the 4th overall+Ellis, though I wouldn't do it as Nashville . Teams look at a lot more then the players skill when making these trades; age, years left before RFA, contract & potential are big factors when you make a trade.

IIRC Ellis still has 6 years left before being an UFA, he still has top 4 potential, in the mold of a Shattenkirk type player. This draft has a couple of tiers, there's the top 4 of Jones, Mack, Drouin & Nichushkin, all have elite potential, then there is the 2nd tier which has Barkov & Lindholm, both have #1C potential & seems to be pretty safe bets to be at least NHL players. Add in one of the top prospects and that's 15 years of cost controlled contracts, Nashville doesn't give out huge 2nd contracts so they will save quite a bit of money in the coming years.

Nashville has never had a true #1C in their history, I can't see Nashville trading away Barkov/Lindholm for a Winger, no matter how good he is. You don't go anywhere by building your team around a Winger, look at Washington now & with Jagr, or Calgary with Iginla. You need to have a at the very least an Elite #2C to have a chance at the cup. Every team that has won the cup over the past 6 years has had incredible C depth, good/great D & a goalie that was good/amazing. Wingers are the least important position & you can without having an elite W.

If Buffalo wants to get the most value out of Vanek they'll trade him at the deadline, that runs the risk that he ***** the bed or he gets hurt and isn't tradeable. The other thing is if you're trading Vanek it's looking more like a 3+ year rebuild so saying you won't trade him in the East means you have 16 less teams to trade him to. The fact that of those 14 teams in the West only 2 or 3 have the cap space or are contenders that could use him you're severely limiting what you can get for him. The only way you get some of those deals is if you allow him to be traded in conference.

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05-13-2013, 09:51 PM
  #558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
Let me restate it:

Barkov and Ellis for Vanek and Zadarov.

Deal?
Doubt it. a potential #1C+#4D for a #1W+ potential #4D. Nashville needs a potential #1C much more then the need another winger. I'm also not sure how he, Vanek, would fair in Nashville's defence first system. We saw Radulov had a bit of a rough time adjusting to it so it may limit Vanek's point production.

I think it would be more palatable if he was 27/28 & was signed for an extra year.

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05-13-2013, 09:54 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post
Doubt it. a potential #1C+#4D for a #1W+ potential #4D. Nashville needs a potential #1C much more then the need another winger. I'm also not sure how he, Vanek, would fair in Nashville's defence first system. We saw Radulov had a bit of a rough time adjusting to it so it may limit Vanek's point production.

I think it would be more palatable if he was 27/28 & was signed for an extra year.
Vanek produced just fine for several years getting 16 minutes a night under Lindy Ruff. I think he'd find a way to score in Nashville.

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05-13-2013, 09:59 PM
  #560
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Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
Vanek produced just fine for several years getting 16 minutes a night under Lindy Ruff. I think he'd find a way to score in Nashville.
But the West is generally lower scoring, & Vanek had a lot more talent around him then he would have in Nashville (no offence Pred fans but please correct me if I'm wrong).

I'm not saying that he wouldn't be able to score with the Preds, just that it is a cause for concern. I think Vanek has around a .75-.85 point per game vs the west in his career but it's a smaller sample size compared to the East.

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05-13-2013, 10:27 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post
I disagree. Vanek with 1 year left + 8th overall is fair value for the 4th overall+Ellis, though I wouldn't do it as Nashville . Teams look at a lot more then the players skill when making these trades; age, years left before RFA, contract & potential are big factors when you make a trade.

IIRC Ellis still has 6 years left before being an UFA, he still has top 4 potential, in the mold of a Shattenkirk type player. This draft has a couple of tiers, there's the top 4 of Jones, Mack, Drouin & Nichushkin, all have elite potential, then there is the 2nd tier which has Barkov & Lindholm, both have #1C potential & seems to be pretty safe bets to be at least NHL players. Add in one of the top prospects and that's 15 years of cost controlled contracts, Nashville doesn't give out huge 2nd contracts so they will save quite a bit of money in the coming years.

Nashville has never had a true #1C in their history, I can't see Nashville trading away Barkov/Lindholm for a Winger, no matter how good he is. You don't go anywhere by building your team around a Winger, look at Washington now & with Jagr, or Calgary with Iginla. You need to have a at the very least an Elite #2C to have a chance at the cup. Every team that has won the cup over the past 6 years has had incredible C depth, good/great D & a goalie that was good/amazing. Wingers are the least important position & you can without having an elite W.

If Buffalo wants to get the most value out of Vanek they'll trade him at the deadline, that runs the risk that he ***** the bed or he gets hurt and isn't tradeable. The other thing is if you're trading Vanek it's looking more like a 3+ year rebuild so saying you won't trade him in the East means you have 16 less teams to trade him to. The fact that of those 14 teams in the West only 2 or 3 have the cap space or are contenders that could use him you're severely limiting what you can get for him. The only way you get some of those deals is if you allow him to be traded in conference.
at least someone gets it

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05-13-2013, 10:32 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by DJN21 View Post
I'm very sorry that Tatar a player who since 09' has yet to crack a roster spot or put up overly flattering numbers, a college signee who frankly was okay but nothing beyond what chad ruhwedel our own college sign was in their albeit short stints, and Sproul whom when last I checked Hockey News's prospect watch was Detroit's 9th ranked prospect isn't enough for one of the highest scoring wingers since last lockout...
Tatar for some mystical reason was sent down for no reason this year. He had 7 points in 18 games, at the time he had the most points in our bottom 6 and was leading the charge in our bottom 6, this with very little ES time & PP time. If you hadn't noticed the Wings don't put rookies into the lineup for 4-5+ years after their draft year or until they are waiver eligible, I think it's to keep their 2nd contracts affordable. The 07 draft class is now just finally getting into the lineup, 5 years after their draft so you'll have to excuse Tatar for not being waiver eligible yet.

Using HfBoards as a way to determine how prospects are ranked is not a smart idea. Sproul is considered by most Wing fans to have the 1st/2nd highest upside of anyone in our pool and is generally considered to be a top 5 prospect, sometimes top 3. If you want to get a good read on how the organization value's their prospects look at http://www.redwingscentral.com/prospects/ , this site is said to be the closest to how the Wings value their on prospects.

Quote:
decreased goal totals? are we ranking that on a shortened year? really? cuz vanek was a ppg player this year? With cody-2nd year hodgson as his center lol.
Had a feeling you were going to say that. He had 40 goals in 08-09, 28 in 09-10 & 26 in 10-11, that looks to me like decreasing totals. You make it sound like Hodgson is some bum that has no business being in the top 6. He's got 60-70 point potential, maybe more & is a great compliment to Vanek being that he is a pass first player.

Quote:
P.s everything you said about Sproul could be said about Leduc in our system coming into this year...stat check if you'd like...doesn't change their stance as a fringe offensive dman who cant even crack a top 5 prospect pool.
Not exactly sure what you mean here "doesn't change their stance as a fringe offensive dman who cant even crack a top 5 prospect pool" as I'm quite sure that Sproul would easily fit into the top 10 of a top 5 prospect pool. Anyways Leduc had a 1.19 P/G last year in his 20 year old season, Sproul had a 1.32 P/G in his 20 year old season. Sproul was 2nd in his team on scoring, Leduc was 3rd. Leduc had an extremely disappointing first AHL year while Sproul has his first year next year so we can compare them again next year. This isn't about either of them though so I'll leave it at that.

Quote:
And as for the one dimensional winger part Vanek may not PK or check regularly and his defense is at times suspect but one dimensional is a stupid thing to say when you consider he is a sniper, one of the best in the league in front of the net, a gamer who plays through injuries, will tip in anything thrown his way, one of the best passers in the league and a guy who has played on mostly underwhelming teams his entire career. Frankly Vanek could be Holmstrom version 2.steroids for you guys and take you from a fringe playoff team to an actual contender again.
Is that not the definition of 1 dimensional? I love what Vanek brings to the table but with every sniper when he's not scoring he's not doing much else to help the team. If he was a two-force or was a physical beast you would be looking at a top 10/15 player in the NHL but he doesn't do those things so you have to try & figure what is the Risk vs Reward when you try to acquire him.

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05-13-2013, 10:38 PM
  #563
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Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post

Had a feeling you were going to say that. He had 40 goals in 08-09, 28 in 09-10 & 26 in 10-11, that looks to me like decreasing totals. You make it sound like Hodgson is some bum that has no business being in the top 6. He's got 60-70 point potential, maybe more & is a great compliment to Vanek being that he is a pass first player.

Is that not the definition of 1 dimensional? I love what Vanek brings to the table but with every sniper when he's not scoring he's not doing much else to help the team. If he was a two-force or was a physical beast you would be looking at a top 10/15 player in the NHL but he doesn't do those things so you have to try & figure what is the Risk vs Reward when you try to acquire him.
They've heard it all before (from me)... they don't get it

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05-13-2013, 10:46 PM
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Is Hackett considered Buffalo's goalie of the future? If not I'd offer something around Schneider.

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05-13-2013, 11:00 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Is Hackett considered Buffalo's goalie of the future? If not I'd offer something around Schneider.
We expect one of Hackett, Makarov, Ullmark to take the reigns after Miller is gone. Not exactly sure which one yet.

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05-13-2013, 11:13 PM
  #566
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What would Buffalo say to something like Schnider (or Edler) for Vanek as a base? Depending on cap retention/adding other asset(s) Schroder and our 1st could be in play as well


Edit: Assuming it was written in stone Miller was being moved

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05-13-2013, 11:39 PM
  #567
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Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
What would Buffalo say to something like Schnider (or Edler) for Vanek as a base? Depending on cap retention/adding other asset(s) Schroder and our 1st could be in play as well


Edit: Assuming it was written in stone Miller was being moved
With Enroth and Hackett, I'm not sure the sabres are looking for another goalie of the future

and personally the pprospect I'm post interested in from Vancouver is Jensen.

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05-14-2013, 12:21 AM
  #568
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Is Hackett considered Buffalo's goalie of the future? If not I'd offer something around Schneider.
I feel like we're pretty set with Enroth (already at least a decent backup if nothing more), Hackett (likely to be a full-time NHLer in some capacity), Makarov (crapshoot with high highs and low lows), and Ullmark (prototypical big European goalie, put up good stats in limited time in the SEL this year).

We much more desperately need talent at wing or on D. Not really interested in Schneider, at all.

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05-14-2013, 12:31 AM
  #569
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Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
I feel like we're pretty set with Enroth (already at least a decent backup if nothing more), Hackett (likely to be a full-time NHLer in some capacity), Makarov (crapshoot with high highs and low lows), and Ullmark (prototypical big European goalie, put up good stats in limited time in the SEL this year).

We much more desperately need talent at wing or on D. Not really interested in Schneider, at all.
So, assuming Jensen is the starting point, what else would you want? One of either Gaunce or Corrado, and a 1st round pick(conditional on Vanek re-signing if Buffalo doesn't eat salary, or non-conditional if they absorb 50%)

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05-14-2013, 01:25 AM
  #570
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Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
What would Buffalo say to something like Schnider (or Edler) for Vanek as a base? Depending on cap retention/adding other asset(s) Schroder and our 1st could be in play as well


Edit: Assuming it was written in stone Miller was being moved

If Buffalo didn't acquire Hackett then yes they would consider Schneider. But with them now having Hackett plus they haveMakarov from the WHL coming to the team this year plus another young goalie playing in Europe they aren't looking at goalies for Vanek.

If they go through rebuild then they don't really want Edler to come back. They would rather get a younger Dman (23-25) who would be in their prime 3 yrs from now.

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05-14-2013, 03:54 AM
  #571
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But the West is generally lower scoring, & Vanek had a lot more talent around him then he would have in Nashville (no offence Pred fans but please correct me if I'm wrong).

I'm not saying that he wouldn't be able to score with the Preds, just that it is a cause for concern. I think Vanek has around a .75-.85 point per game vs the west in his career but it's a smaller sample size compared to the East.
Not sure if Buffalo had more talent, Sabres were a 1 line team with Pomer and Vanek. Similar coaching style. Talent would be very close before Suter left.

*edit* Vanek has had revolving centres, Hodgson, Roy, Luke Adam, Connolly maybe Hecht and Gaustad for a while

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05-14-2013, 07:07 AM
  #572
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
So, assuming Jensen is the starting point, what else would you want? One of either Gaunce or Corrado, and a 1st round pick(conditional on Vanek re-signing if Buffalo doesn't eat salary, or non-conditional if they absorb 50%)
I think the trade with Vancouver has been agreed on by most fans of both teams at Vanek for Gaunce, Jensen and a 1st. With buffalo retaining some salary.

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05-14-2013, 08:08 AM
  #573
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1st + top prospect (preferably a natural winger) + serviceable roster player (probably some salary dump necessary to make it feasible, ie: a guy that's useful but overpaid for what he brings) is what I'd want back.
I'm sure Buffalo would be willing to retain some salary, and I'd be willing to add some conditionals based on whether Vanek re-signs with the team he's traded to or not.
Ottawa's 1st + Puempel/Noesen + ???

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05-14-2013, 09:02 AM
  #574
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
So, assuming Jensen is the starting point, what else would you want? One of either Gaunce or Corrado, and a 1st round pick(conditional on Vanek re-signing if Buffalo doesn't eat salary, or non-conditional if they absorb 50%)
This offer was made by Van fans a week or so ago... as a Buffalo fan.... I'm ALL over it.

Jensen, Gaunce, 1st (non conditional)
for
Vanek

(Buffalo can retain 50% to make it even more enticing)

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05-14-2013, 09:46 AM
  #575
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Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
Not sure if Buffalo had more talent, Sabres were a 1 line team with Pomer and Vanek. Similar coaching style. Talent would be very close before Suter left.

*edit* Vanek has had revolving centres, Hodgson, Roy, Luke Adam, Connolly maybe Hecht and Gaustad for a while
Over the yeas Roy had been his center for much of hs career. When Roy went down with an injury in dec 2010 he started to play with other centers.

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