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What Bobrovsky Winning the Vezina Would Mean For The Flyers

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Old
05-14-2013, 12:45 PM
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
DFF going to quote that book you wrote earlier when responding to me. But I will ask you this. At what age do you think goalies peak out at? you seem to be ok to giving up on younger players for veterans.
That book? It was like three paragraphs long.

Anyway, I'm not concerned about when players peak in general. Every single situation, every single player, every single team is different. I'm not saying if a goalie isn't a starter by X age, get rid of him. I'm saying in the context of the Flyers making the decision to go with Bryz instead of Bob, I don't think it was a lack of patience that led to the decision. I think it was looking at Bob and the team thinking that Bob would be at best what Bryz was (at the time they signed him, of course) and at worst a flash in the pan guy. Neither of those were guarantees but the Flyers went with the safer bet.

Its hard to analogize the goalie position to another position because you really aren't replacing prospect A with veteran B as a one to one switch, but if you have a guy like Gus, who everyone seems to think is a sure-fire top 4 who really showed a lot this year (which I don't think is true). If you had him under contract for another two years or whatever but had the chance to sign a 30 year old former Norris trophy nominee but for some reason (roster space, cap space whatever) it meant you had to trade Gus, you wouldn't sign the Norris trophy nominee? You'd wait for Gus to develop into a top four guy? Like I said, it doesn't really work with other positions because you don't have to get rid of defenders to sign a defender, but that is my thinking on this. It isn't a lack of patience, it is a calculated decision to go with a bird in the hand rather than the two in the bush.

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05-14-2013, 12:45 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by buff View Post
I'm happy for Bob but his career was over in Philly...

Sergei Bobrovsky playoff stats :
7GP 0W 2L 4.04GAA .848PCT


Right now i'm mooving on with Steve Mason :
7GP 4W 2L 1.90GAA .944 PCT

He stole the games against Boston and Ottawa. Sounds good to me!
Huh?

Still amazed at people who basically say Bob wouldn't have panned out here. The guy is a self-made starter in many respects. He had limitless talent, a good head on his shoulders and worked his butt off. Morover, like that one thread noted from a scout his "flaws" were "easily" fixable as we saw this year with CBJ and their goalie coach.

Writing him off b/c in the second half of his rookie year he faltered somewhat and then judging him harshly in a year where he had to adjust to being a backup which is not easy for a self-motivated player like him borders on complete irrationality...

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05-14-2013, 12:47 PM
  #128
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those flaws weren't going to be fixed by Jeff Reese.

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05-14-2013, 01:01 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
those flaws weren't going to be fixed by Jeff Reese.
He didn't need Jeff Reese...he would have eventually figured it out on his own IMO. Like I said he is a self-made starter. It was pretty straightforward if you read that article....I mean people on this board were picking up the "flaw" which was he crouched too much.

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05-14-2013, 01:04 PM
  #130
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I really hated the day we signed bryz, only for the fact that it meant bob would benched.


What a horrible decision that turned out to be. That and the pronger injury ruined this team's chances.

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05-14-2013, 01:17 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
He didn't need Jeff Reese...he would have eventually figured it out on his own IMO. Like I said he is a self-made starter. It was pretty straightforward if you read that article....I mean people on this board were picking up the "flaw" which was he crouched too much.
you have to listen to your coaches. Even when its obvious its not helping. not listening to them likely gets your ass nailed to the bench. its pretty bad when the team you are traded to goalie coach tells you to ignore everything that was taught to you on Philadelphia.

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05-14-2013, 01:34 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Huh?

Still amazed at people who basically say Bob wouldn't have panned out here. The guy is a self-made starter in many respects. He had limitless talent, a good head on his shoulders and worked his butt off. Morover, like that one thread noted from a scout his "flaws" were "easily" fixable as we saw this year with CBJ and their goalie coach.

Writing him off b/c in the second half of his rookie year he faltered somewhat and then judging him harshly in a year where he had to adjust to being a backup which is not easy for a self-motivated player like him borders on complete irrationality...
I think penciling him in as a franchise goalie after one good season is also bordering on complete irrationality.

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05-14-2013, 02:16 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think penciling him in as a franchise goalie after one good season is also bordering on complete irrationality.
+1 !

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05-14-2013, 02:59 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think penciling him in as a franchise goalie after one good season is also bordering on complete irrationality.
Not penciling him in as a "franchise" goalie but at least as the starter...but Bryzgalov's acquisition defaulted him to backup which was the root cause of his ouster..not that he wasn't capable.That is the contention..

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05-14-2013, 03:00 PM
  #135
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+1 !
ahhh...no!

Validating DFF is irrational

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05-14-2013, 03:03 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
you have to listen to your coaches. Even when its obvious its not helping. not listening to them likely gets your ass nailed to the bench. its pretty bad when the team you are traded to goalie coach tells you to ignore everything that was taught to you on Philadelphia.
That's funny because Bryz supposedly doesn't listen to his coach. Then again when you remove all his competition ..hard to nail him to the bench although when he is on it he likes to drink from his thermos or doze off....

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05-14-2013, 05:35 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Not penciling him in as a "franchise" goalie but at least as the starter...but Bryzgalov's acquisition defaulted him to backup which was the root cause of his ouster..not that he wasn't capable.That is the contention..
I think that the problem I have is with people penciling him in as franchise goalie, insinuating that this Vezina nomination he received today was a lock (see: the previous posts of Beef Invictus talking about Bob's "amazing" potential and how the writing was on the wall of what Bob was capable of). I have no problem penciling him in as a starter. That is fine. I never said then or now that he couldn't be a starter. What I've been saying is that the Flyers didn't want to take a chance that Bob would be the next of many Cechmaneks, Bouchers, Esches, Birons, etc that were all perfectly capable starters, but nothing special (though Cechmanek at his height was pretty damned good in the regular season). Instead they went with what seemed like (and turned out to be incorrect) the safe bet: the guy who has consistently put up good numbers, including the season of Bob's rookie year where he put up better numbers than Bob, as well as the year before when he was runner up for the Vezina. They took the bird in hand rather than the two in the Bush.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
ahhh...no!

Validating DFF is irrational
Psh. I'm the most rational poster on here. I actually apply reason to the facts at hand, concede points, acknowledge the possibility of other viewpoints, and admit when I am wrong.

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05-14-2013, 06:00 PM
  #138
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I haven't had any free time to really get into debates today, but I'd just like to chime in to express my disapproval at you purposefully shoving words in my mouth.

How is saying "Bob's potential was always very evident, this year shouldn't be surprising and it was easy to tell he had the tools to be good" the same as "he was a lock for a Vezina this year?"

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05-14-2013, 08:45 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I haven't had any free time to really get into debates today, but I'd just like to chime in to express my disapproval at you purposefully shoving words in my mouth.

How is saying "Bob's potential was always very evident, this year shouldn't be surprising and it was easy to tell he had the tools to be good" the same as "he was a lock for a Vezina this year?"
I never said you used those words, I said you insinuated it. You said he had "amazing potential" and would be the "goaltending solution" for this team. I said he showed the potential to be the starting goalie, you said he showed more potential than that. That leads me to believe that you were insinuating that you knew that Bob would have a season like he had this year. Unless you were just saying you thought his "amazing potential" and his potential to be the "goaltending solution" for this team meant that he would be something more than just an average starting goalie, but less than a Vezina caliber goalie, which seems like a strange claim to make when you are talking about how apparent this guy's amazing potential was and how everyone knew how good he would be.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
DFF, I stopped reading your post the moment you said Bob didn't show amazing potential. You lost credibility there. Either you completely missed the train, or this is revisionist history on your part.

...

Bob had one good season where he had essentially no formal goaltending coaching, didn't speak the same language as his Dmen, and had never played in NA. He got by on his athleticism and work ethic alone. That's the best potential you can ask for in a goalie, to throw them into the NHL and have them do well simply on raw talent and a willingness to work at it. It was amazingly obvious at the time

...

You didn't think Bob showed amazing potential? The speed, lateral movement, athleticism in general? He had skills that you can't teach, yet lacked many of the skills that can be taught but he showed a very good ability to learn and respond to coaching. That's all pretty amazing. It's also pretty rare. How many Bob's have we seen in the NHL? How many undrafted guys with nor formal coaching make their way straight in the NHL and keep themselves afloat on athletic skill alone? It doesn't happen often. It's pretty amazing, actually.

Let me revise that: he had the potential to be our goaltending solution, and I was nowhere close to coming to that conclusion on my own. Lots of people saw that, lots of people said it, lots of people continued to say it for a while. For that reason alone, I don't understand how anybody can claim we're using hindsight, when so many of us have been saying these things all along. A lot of fans, both Flyers fans and non-Flyers fans, considered "starting goaltender" to be his floor, not his ceiling.

...

Bob's work ethic and well-adjusted attitude gave/gives every reason to believe he will reach his potential. That's what truly made him special and set him apart from the rest of the failed goaltending herd the org has been through.
If that doesn't insinuate that you thought he would be as good as he was this year, I am not sure what does.


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05-14-2013, 08:51 PM
  #140
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What it does show though is that yet again, management made the wrong choice for the goalie position. The same management that though Leighton-Boucher was a competent combo. Goes to say alot.

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05-14-2013, 09:18 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I never said you used those words, I said you insinuated it. You said he had "amazing potential" and would be the "goaltending solution" for this team. I said he showed the potential to be the starting goalie, you said he showed more potential than that. That leads me to believe that you were insinuating that you knew that Bob would have a season like he had this year. Unless you were just saying you thought his "amazing potential" and his potential to be the "goaltending solution" for this team meant that he would be something more than just an average starting goalie, but less than a Vezina caliber goalie, which seems like a strange claim to make when you are talking about how apparent this guy's amazing potential was and how everyone knew how good he would be.

EDIT:



If that doesn't insinuate that you thought he would be as good as he was this year, I am not sure what does.
You're reading extremely deeply into that if you think any of that suggests "Vezina candidate." I look at that and see that I'm suggesting he showed more than enough potential to reasonably expect him to be an NHL starter, possibly of franchise caliber. You're venturing into strawman territory.

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05-14-2013, 10:21 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You're reading extremely deeply into that if you think any of that suggests "Vezina candidate." I look at that and see that I'm suggesting he showed more than enough potential to reasonably expect him to be an NHL starter, possibly of franchise caliber. You're venturing into strawman territory.
OK. Let me get this straight. You use phrases like "amazing potential," "rare," and "goaltending solution." You contradict me when I say the only thing he showed was the potential to be a starter. But I am using straw man arguments when I interpret that to mean you were insinuating that you thought Bob was a lock to have the type of season he had. Makes sense.

You are reading too much into my posts. Sure I said he only showed potential to be a starter and Bryz was the right choice at the time. But what I meant was the Bob was the right choice. Come on.

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05-14-2013, 10:28 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
OK. Let me get this straight. You use phrases like "amazing potential," "rare," and "goaltending solution." You contradict me when I say the only thing he showed was the potential to be a starter. But I am using straw man arguments when I interpret that to mean you were insinuating that you thought Bob was a lock to have the type of season he had. Makes sense.

You are reading too much into my posts. Sure I said he only showed potential to be a starter and Bryz was the right choice at the time. But what I meant was the Bob was the right choice. Come on.
So do you not think it's not rare for a guy like Bob to come in and play like he did, in his rookie season, with his particular circumstances? You don't think that's rare and remarkable? Amazing, perhaps?

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05-14-2013, 10:40 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
So do you not think it's not rare for a guy like Bob to come in and play like he did, in his rookie season, with his particular circumstances? You don't think that's rare and remarkable? Amazing, perhaps?
Your comments seem to talk about his abilities being rare and his potential being rare along with the fact that he came out of nowhere. The coming out of nowhere is rare, sure. But that doesn't mean anything in terms his potential or abilities being rare. His abilities, looked good. Absolutely. He looked like he may be able to be the starter going forward. I never once said anything else. I never said it was impossible for him to become more, only that the choice the Flyers made was a decision to not wait and see but to rather go with the sure thing. I disagree with your position that he showed amazing potential and looked like he could do more than just be the starter (although apparently you never said that either, despite arguing with me when I said he showed potential to be the starter but that's it, and saying he has amazing and rare potential and skills and was this team's goaltending solution).

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05-14-2013, 10:42 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Your comments seem to talk about his abilities being rare and his potential being rare along with the fact that he came out of nowhere. The coming out of nowhere is rare, sure. But that doesn't mean anything in terms his potential or abilities being rare. His abilities, looked good. Absolutely. He looked like he may be able to be the starter going forward. I never once said anything else. I never said it was impossible for him to become more, only that the choice the Flyers made was a decision to not wait and see but to rather go with the sure thing. I disagree with your position that he showed amazing potential and looked like he could do more than just be the starter (although apparently you never said that either, despite arguing with me when I said he showed potential to be the starter but that's it, and saying he has amazing and rare potential and skills and was this team's goaltending solution).
He came in and immediately had among the fastest lateral movement in the NHL. As a rookie. His speed in general was impressive.

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05-14-2013, 10:55 PM
  #146
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He came in and immediately had among the fastest lateral movement in the NHL. As a rookie. His speed in general was impressive.
Great. I never said he wasn't good, or was slow, or had poor form. He obviously showed that he could play. That he could be the starter. I 100% agree with that. But that does not equate to having amazing potential or being a better option than a former Vezina nominee who consistently put better numbers than Bob put up in his one year of NHL play.

You also have been talking about the fact that Bob came out of nowhere as if that somehow makes his potential or skill that much better. You don't think that also may have cut against him? There are guys like Steve Mason, Jim Carey, Andrew Raycroft, etc. who either came out of nowhere and had a good year and fizzled out or may have been drafted high and had a good year and fizzled. There are no guarantees. Raycroft and Mason won Calders and have been largely disappointing since then. Jim Carey won a Vezina in the mid 90s and sucked before and after that. Bob looked good, not amazing as you would have it. The team had 60 games or so games of tape to look at and evaluate. They could have rolled the dice on those 60 games and things could have worked out great. Or it could have been terrible and they Flyers may be looking for a new goalie this year again anyway. They had a shot to get a top goalie in the league who put up consistently good stats throughout his career and was recently the runner-up for the Vezina trophy. They rolled the dice on a former Vezina nominee rather than an inexperienced guy who came out of nowhere.

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05-14-2013, 11:28 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Great. I never said he wasn't good, or was slow, or had poor form. He obviously showed that he could play. That he could be the starter. I 100% agree with that. But that does not equate to having amazing potential or being a better option than a former Vezina nominee who consistently put better numbers than Bob put up in his one year of NHL play.

You also have been talking about the fact that Bob came out of nowhere as if that somehow makes his potential or skill that much better. You don't think that also may have cut against him? There are guys like Steve Mason, Jim Carey, Andrew Raycroft, etc. who either came out of nowhere and had a good year and fizzled out or may have been drafted high and had a good year and fizzled. There are no guarantees. Raycroft and Mason won Calders and have been largely disappointing since then. Jim Carey won a Vezina in the mid 90s and sucked before and after that. Bob looked good, not amazing as you would have it. The team had 60 games or so games of tape to look at and evaluate. They could have rolled the dice on those 60 games and things could have worked out great. Or it could have been terrible and they Flyers may be looking for a new goalie this year again anyway. They had a shot to get a top goalie in the league who put up consistently good stats throughout his career and was recently the runner-up for the Vezina trophy. They rolled the dice on a former Vezina nominee rather than an inexperienced guy who came out of nowhere.
Based on what I saw in his two seasons here, I thought it was best to keep Bob and continue developing him. That had more potential for long term benefit than the Bryz signing. I haven't been proven wrong yet, and so far I'm being proven correct. The people who were pumped about his potential have been right. He seems to be taking the steps he needs to take and correcting the flaws that needed correcting. Nothing he's shown in 3 years indicates that he will suddenly explode and go full Mason/Boucher.

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05-14-2013, 11:39 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Based on what I saw in his two seasons here, I thought it was best to keep Bob and continue developing him. That had more potential for long term benefit than the Bryz signing. I haven't been proven wrong yet, and so far I'm being proven correct. The people who were pumped about his potential have been right. He seems to be taking the steps he needs to take and correcting the flaws that needed correcting. Nothing he's shown in 3 years indicates that he will suddenly explode and go full Mason/Boucher.
Is that what we are talking about? I thought we were talking about the decision to go with Bryz at the time of the decision, without hindsight, when he had played in 60 NHL games. Two years later when he has a Vezina nomination under his belt no one is thinking that he is going to flop. But two years ago when had only played in 60 games, it was certainly a possibility. Nevermind, you win. You are right. He showed amazing potential. He was destined to be a franchise goalie. Bryz was a terrible decision then and now and the entire situation is indefensible. Always better to wait for a no name guy to develop than to go with the established guy.

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05-14-2013, 11:44 PM
  #149
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DFF how can you even type with your head shoved that far up your dick hole? Lots of people wanted the Flyers to sign Vokoun because it looked like Bob had the potential to be a solid number 1 goalie. He needed time to develop but he had the skills, athleticism, and perhaps most importantly the mindset to succeed. Even if this was one fluke year, he'll probably be a much more consistent goaltender than Bryz if only because he's not a total nut job

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05-15-2013, 12:01 AM
  #150
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DFF how can you even type with your head shoved that far up your dick hole? Lots of people wanted the Flyers to sign Vokoun because it looked like Bob had the potential to be a solid number 1 goalie. He needed time to develop but he had the skills, athleticism, and perhaps most importantly the mindset to succeed. Even if this was one fluke year, he'll probably be a much more consistent goaltender than Bryz if only because he's not a total nut job
No need to come at me like that with your witty insult. And you are right, Bob looked like he had the potential to be a starting goalie. I agree. But again, potential is different than being a starting goalie. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush. Your last point about Bryz being a nut-job is not really good fodder for this discussion. At that point in his career, Bryz was among the top goalies in the league and was a year removed from finishing second in the Vezina voting and had put up consistently good numbers throughout his career. Yes, now, with hindsight, it is crystal clear that Bryz was not the goalie the Flyers wanted him to be. The contract is terrible and I don't think (even then) I said the contract was good. But again, at the time, they went with the bird in hand rather than the two in the bush.

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