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05-15-2013, 03:13 PM
  #126
fysloc
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Originally Posted by Halibut View Post
So your not going to buy the new car if it costs $25,001? What about $25,002? What about $25,100? Where do you draw the line. It's pretty clear that setting an absolute limit you are willing to spend and then not going over the line is not how people in the real world operate. Even if you did stick to the 25K price they'd probably talk you into undercoating or an extended warrantee.
Because nobody is an absolute hard limit person, it was really an example. In the context of a car, 100 is not much, but an extra 2000 is. If I saw a car I liked and only wanted to spend $25,000, but the dealer demands minimum $25,500, I may still budge and buy the car if I like it.

However, if he asks for $30,000, then I will consider looking elsewhere. It's all willingness to go over to satisfy what you want there. Regardless, for the topic of bottom line, still applies that consumer doesn't care where the money goes, as long as they get what they want for what they paid for.

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05-15-2013, 03:18 PM
  #127
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The bolded is obviously not true as people have shown. If you want to go to an Oilers game just like if you want to smoke or drink or put gas in your car you will pay the price and grumble about it but for the most part you will still go.

So what isnt complicated is the fact that it isnt really impacting Katz's bottom line except theoretically.
Really? Did you not see what happened in Vancouver not 3 weeks ago? A city praised for being super wealthy with high disposable income and having a large market? They couldn't even sell out a playoff game.

People buy gas and cigarettes regardless of price because they have to. One is needed if they want to get to work and the other is an addiction that is harder to quit than heroin. Let's not even go there.

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05-15-2013, 03:31 PM
  #128
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tbh despite you stating the same thing half a dozen times I have no idea what you are actually stating. You used the word hypocritical several times without denoting why it is hypocritical to have one or the other opinion.
Ya, sorry. Kinda got lost in my own writing, I can understand why it isn't too clear. Writing an essay is my least favorite thing to do in school :/.

I just meant that there are a lot of people complaining on principle that the tax money "wasted" on the arena could go to a better option, yet to some people the arena is the better option. Either way, someone loses something they perceive as beneficial, so arguing on the principle that they are losing something is a little hypocritical.

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Old
05-15-2013, 03:35 PM
  #129
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Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah!

Celebrate, Edmonton!
I thought celebrated when they approved the Framework? I thought we celebrated AGAIN we council once again approved the Revised Framework?

I ain't celebrating till i see shovels in the ground

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05-15-2013, 03:37 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Halibut View Post
You are off base. Our government is charged with providing services to the people. Those services include things like health care, roads, education, police, and fire protection. It is not part of governments mandate to subsidize entertainment ventures.
It's not about who gets what they want it's about doing the task they've been assigned in the constitution without getting into debt and causing them to fail at providing health care or adequate roads or enough schools. There is no hypocrisy.
As I mentioned (and you decided not to quote that part of my post), whether or not the taxes "should" be put there is moot now. It's being discussed, so now the argument is whether it should be put to use on the arena, or to other options. Either way some people don't get what they want.

And the government is supposed to do what its people want. In the very basic meaning. If the people want it, it makes sense that the government would try to give it to them.

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05-15-2013, 03:41 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Draekke View Post
As I mentioned (and you decided not to quote that part of my post), whether or not the taxes "should" be put there is moot now. It's being discussed, so now the argument is whether it should be put to use on the arena, or to other options. Either way some people don't get what they want.

And the government is supposed to do what its people want. In the very basic meaning. If the people want it, it makes sense that the government would try to give it to them.
You are going down a slippery road there re the Arena because if this city govt do what the people of Edmonton want no arena funding would be provided at all most likely.

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05-15-2013, 03:46 PM
  #132
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You are going down a slippery road there re the Arena because if this city govt do what the people of Edmonton want no arena funding would be provided at all most likely.
And that's fine. My point is that arguing on principle is hypocritical. I am in favor of the arena. I go to games, I support my team through purchasing merchandise. I am passionate about the team as many are here as well. But hell, if the city actually put this to a vote and the citizens of Edmonton voted it out, then abso-freaking-lutely it should be turned down. I'd continue being a fan of the team wherever it is they ended up going, and would have a little less incentive to stay living here.

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Old
05-15-2013, 03:48 PM
  #133
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Are people willing to pay $10,000 to go to a game. If not, you are obviously wrong.
One question for you.

Have ticket prices steadily gone up in the last 20yrs?


Now think about that a little in reference to the zero impact that had on demand.

Yes, you are obviously wrong.

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05-15-2013, 03:49 PM
  #134
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David Staples ‏@dstaples 10m
Katz Group putting in additional $15 million. #yegarena #Oilers

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05-15-2013, 03:49 PM
  #135
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That's an incorrect assumption. Do gas prices going up cause you to consume less gas or do you just buy the same as you always do? Supply and demand is much more complicated.
The ticket tax comes from the seat holders and does not necessarily affect Katzs bottom line one bit.
There's a difference between gas and hockey tickets. People need gas to get to work to earn a living. People don't need hockey tickets to live. And I would argue that yes, some people do drive less as a result...

It doesn't affect Katz's bottom line directly - but if they agreed to remove the ticket tax and replace it with higher lease payments, would we be in any different of a situation? The ticket price would be the same at the end of the day.

So why wouldn't Katz do that? My feeling is that it is NHL driven. Higher ticket prices affect what players earn as it is a fixed percentage of league revenues. So by directing it as a ticket tax instead of Oilers revenue, they help keep league revenues down, and therefore keep players salaries down.

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05-15-2013, 03:50 PM
  #136
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Dan Tencer ‏@dantencer 2m
Final $100M in funding, as proposed currently by City Administration: $45M provincial MSI, $25M provincial grant, $15M Katz cash, $15M CRL.

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05-15-2013, 03:51 PM
  #137
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http://councilontheweb.edmonton.ca/

Linda Sloan sounds annoyed that she had to come into work today. What else is new...

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05-15-2013, 03:51 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
One question for you.

Have ticket prices steadily gone up in the last 20yrs?


Now think about that a little in reference to the zero impact that had on demand.

Yes, you are obviously wrong.


This just in: prices go up.

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05-15-2013, 03:53 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
One question for you.

Have ticket prices steadily gone up in the last 20yrs?


Now think about that a little in reference to the zero impact that had on demand.

Yes, you are obviously wrong.
... or were they just charging too little for a game originally?

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05-15-2013, 03:57 PM
  #140
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Terry Jones ‏@sunterryjones 2m
How come everybody in room can understand how this all adds up but Sloan.

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05-15-2013, 03:58 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Terry Jones ‏@sunterryjones 2m
How come everybody in room can understand how this all adds up but Sloan.
Morley Scott ‏@Morley_Scott 2m
Linda Sloan wants to borrow your calculator

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05-15-2013, 03:58 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Draekke View Post
Ya, sorry. Kinda got lost in my own writing, I can understand why it isn't too clear. Writing an essay is my least favorite thing to do in school :/.

I just meant that there are a lot of people complaining on principle that the tax money "wasted" on the arena could go to a better option, yet to some people the arena is the better option. Either way, someone loses something they perceive as beneficial, so arguing on the principle that they are losing something is a little hypocritical.
No, I'm just saying it isn't the business of the city to be propping up somebodies private enterprise. It isn't the domain, mandate, of the civic administration to do that.

As mentioned this notion of handing an arena to one person, not taxing him for either the arena or any ancillary entertainment contained within, while using a CRL to continue to tax surrounding business represents select interference in the marketplace.

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05-15-2013, 04:00 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post


This just in: prices go up.
This just in. In the normal marketplace prices for a product do not go from 30bucks to 300bucks in the space of 20-25 years. For a vastly inferior product at that.

But yeah, good example quoting the price of a pop over 50yrs ago. Try to at least keep to the timeframe.

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05-15-2013, 04:03 PM
  #144
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vinesh pratap ‏@vineshpratap 42s
Coun Krushell asks admin to explain crl to councillors who might not understand it. #yeg #yegarena
Hilarious. We'd better see a dramatic turnover in council in the fall.

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05-15-2013, 04:04 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Draekke View Post
As I mentioned (and you decided not to quote that part of my post), whether or not the taxes "should" be put there is moot now. It's being discussed, so now the argument is whether it should be put to use on the arena, or to other options. Either way some people don't get what they want.

And the government is supposed to do what its people want. In the very basic meaning. If the people want it, it makes sense that the government would try to give it to them.
In every poll on the matter that asked whether people wanted public funding of an arena involved the majority was quite clearly no. So given that I'm not sure what you are saying.

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05-15-2013, 04:04 PM
  #146
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This just in. In the normal marketplace prices for a product do not go from 30bucks to 300bucks in the space of 20-25 years. For a vastly inferior product at that.

But yeah, good example quoting the price of a pop over 50yrs ago. Try to at least keep to the timeframe.
Are you honestly trying to argue that demand and price are unrelated?

I'm not sure which one of your arguments is more absurd this or 12.03 <= 12.

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05-15-2013, 04:05 PM
  #147
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... or were they just charging too little for a game originally?
Thats a fairer argument and I wouldn't disagree.

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05-15-2013, 04:06 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Hilarious. We'd better see a dramatic turnover in council in the fall.
Yeah, I want to get rid of the turkeys that voted yes on this deal.

The fun thing is to see who is going to foot the bill when the thing goes over budget.

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05-15-2013, 04:08 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
Are you honestly trying to argue that demand and price are unrelated?

I'm not sure which one of your arguments is more absurd this or 12.03 <= 12.
What I'm getting at obviously is your notion that the ticket tax, by virtue of increasing ticket prices overall, is not going to matter much to Katz as the market will continue to pay pretty much whatever is asked providing the increments are not extreme in the moment. Probably everybody reading follows along with what I'm explaining to you.

In effect you're trying to argue that a 7% tax is going to cut into Katz max potential ticket price when 1000% increase over the last 20yrs has done nothing to abate demand.

I used the increases (yearly) to demonstrate they have no impact on tickets sold. The market seemingly will bare whatever price put in front of it within reason. I'm all for ticket tax and user pay.

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05-15-2013, 04:14 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
Yeah, I want to get rid of the turkeys that voted yes on this deal.

The fun thing is to see who is going to foot the bill when the thing goes over budget.
Staples said on lowetides show that it is a contract that is protected from overruns. Which means if for whatever reason it goes above costs it is the contractor who must make up th difference.

So this is the final price for funding purposes.

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