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Is Henrik Lundqvist An HOFer?

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Old
03-16-2012, 10:55 AM
  #101
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
-MAF will have more than just wins, he'll have great stats and at least one Cup.
-MAF most assuredly isn't seen as one of the best goalies in the league? Not sure how much truth there is to that right now. Anyways, next year I guarantee you he'll be considered one of the best.
-MAF will retire in the top 10 in wins, ahead of guys like Osgood and Vernon. He could be in the top 10 by his early to mid 30's. He won't even need to be have Brodeur-esque to have good win totals. Because of the shootout, win totals will mean less, and we'll have a few guys with 400+ wins, but still, I'd bet that MAF will end up with a lot of wins, good stats, and at least 2 Cups.
when you use the word "stats" and separate it from something like "wins", I assume you mean more "personal" stats like save percentage.

But he doesn't have great "stats". His career sv% of .910 is just one point above the league average throughout his career.

Osgood played until he was 38 and maintained a sv% smack dab on the league average throughout his career. We like to call him a "passenger" and maybe he was as far as a strong team like Detroit was concerned, but he was an average NHL goalie for a long time. (edit: he was actually two points ahead through age 35, before his last three abysmal regular seasons wrecked his career average)

Fleury, with one cup and marginally better personal stats maintained over half the length of time, has a long way to go before he gets close to matching Osgood's legacy, and most of us scoff at the idea of Osgood getting in the hall.


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03-16-2012, 12:15 PM
  #102
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He has good stats the last 2 seasons, and I said his stats will be good. Because they will. He's entering his prime and he's a different player from the young kid that came to play for the worst team in the league and the inconsistent player most people think he still is.

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03-16-2012, 12:28 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
He has good stats the last 2 seasons, and I said his stats will be good. Because they will. He's entering his prime and he's a different player from the young kid that came to play for the worst team in the league and the inconsistent player most people think he still is.
you're right, his stats have been better, and if that continues (which is far from a guarantee with any goalie) then he should end up with better personal career numbers than Osgood.

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03-16-2012, 12:32 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
-MAF will have more than just wins, he'll have great stats and at least one Cup.
-MAF most assuredly isn't seen as one of the best goalies in the league? Not sure how much truth there is to that right now. Anyways, next year I guarantee you he'll be considered one of the best.
-MAF will retire in the top 10 in wins, ahead of guys like Osgood and Vernon. He could be in the top 10 by his early to mid 30's. He won't even need to be have Brodeur-esque to have good win totals. Because of the shootout, win totals will mean less, and we'll have a few guys with 400+ wins, but still, I'd bet that MAF will end up with a lot of wins, good stats, and at least 2 Cups.
- As people have already said, his stats so far have been a bit better then average, but that's it. Far from guarantee he pulls his numbers up by much when it's all said and done.
- One of the best as in top 5? No. And how can you guarantee that for next season?
- Man, there are so many variables that you cannot say he'll retire with X number of wins. His play could fall off, injuries, team isn't as good, he gets traded, some other goalie knocks him off as #1, etc etc. And there's no guarantee he wins another cup.

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03-18-2012, 01:18 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by MeowLeafs View Post
Imo, MAF isn't currently projected to be HOF material because the HOF is the highest standard there is. Don't take that as an insult. It in no way, shape or form means that MAF isn't a great goalie, or heck, even elite. You can be an elite goalie for some time and not be HOF material. And 9th in Hart voting, really?...imo that argument goes against you rather then for you.

MAF still has a lot of time to build a much better resume though. Only time will tell.
Which is why unless we have a crystal ball there is no way to tell. That is the fun of projecting. Rico Fata was once projected to make the 2002 Olympic team way back in 1998 on a four year projection list. It was a little foolish, but bold.

I don't think Fleury's projection is looking all that foolish anymore. And you are right, things can happen. He is 27. He could retire tomorrow or lose his passion or gain a lot of weight or meet the wrong girl. But he has accomplished so much already I think he is starting to look like he's on the right track. And since the HHOF is extremely strict on goalies getting in I agree it is no guarantee.

But how the guy has played the last two seasons has been superb. He has really stepped up his game and taken the bull by the horns. The saves Fleury makes are ones Osgood never did. They are ones Osgood was never in the position to have to make. That's something stats won't show you, only the eyes can. He plays a style that is acrobatic and reliant on reflexes more than anything so he is capable of making the "big" saves at opportune times. Again, something stats don't tell

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03-19-2012, 01:02 PM
  #106
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I don't think I've ever seen a goalie get more of a free pass than Lundqvist. In my opinion he has a long way to go until you can make a claim that he is a HOFer. He is almost playing himself out of a Vezina since the beginning of March and has yet to win anything of significance in the NHL. He plays on an very defensive minded team that has a system in place that plays to his strengths.

Right now I put his chances slightly ahead of Ryan Millers (slightly better regular season stats but lesser postseason stats, and a slight edge on international play). Unless he makes some noise in the playoffs.

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03-19-2012, 06:33 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by haakon84 View Post
I don't think I've ever seen a goalie get more of a free pass than Lundqvist. In my opinion he has a long way to go until you can make a claim that he is a HOFer. He is almost playing himself out of a Vezina since the beginning of March and has yet to win anything of significance in the NHL. He plays on an very defensive minded team that has a system in place that plays to his strengths.

Right now I put his chances slightly ahead of Ryan Millers (slightly better regular season stats but lesser postseason stats, and a slight edge on international play). Unless he makes some noise in the playoffs.
This is true. I'm much more of a proponent of Fleury judging on what he has already accomplished, his age and even how he's playing now which isn't hurting him. Miller himself has a Vezina and is a Silver Medal in 2010 against the Canadian dream team even possibly better than Lundqvist's gold?

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03-26-2012, 06:13 PM
  #108
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I think the craziest part about Henrik's Lundqvist statistics are his stats in the early years of his career when looked at side-by-side with his teammates.

I mean, when your best defenseman for the first few years of your career is Darius Kasparaitis, and you take a Rangers team that was predicted by pretty much everyone pre-05-06 to finish dead last in the East and get them into the playoffs singlehandedly, and then win at least 30 games every concurring season on a team who's had a terrible blue line pretty much every single season save this one (and even then, before this season, looking at this Rangers blueline on paper, who could've predicted that defense would have been this team's strong suit?), you've got to be more than just a 'pretty good' goaltender.

He's the only goalie in NHL history to record 30 wins in each of his first seven seasons in the NHL, and he's showing no signs of ever stopping to record less than 30 wins in any of his future NHL seasons. Yes, he hasn't won a cup, and yes, he hasn't won a vezina, but those things (especially the Vezina) will be easy to come by for a man of his talents..especially now that he actually has a good team playing for him.

Henrik Lundqvist has never had problems in the playoffs. Having been a Rangers fan all of my life and watching the team on a regular basis, I can assure you that this is not the case. A more accurate assessment is that Henrik Lundqvist carries the team on his back into the playoffs by himself, and then isn't able to continue carrying his terrible, consistently-underperforming teammates on his back anymore once the playoffs start. Seriously, did anyone even WATCH the Rangers-Caps series last year? We looked like Columbus out there. And when I say Columbus I mean to imply that sled hockey players would have been more effective than Washington against us. The one game we won of that series was because the team actually livened up a bit and hustled and put effort into playing hockey.

To say that Marc-Andre Fleury deserves to get into the hall of fame is quite possibly the silliest thing anyone could say. Don't get me wrong--he's a very good goalie. He's also quite possibly the most overrated goalie in the NHL--right up there with Tim Thomas. Anyone who plays goalie (and actually knows what they're doing) and watches both of these goalies a lot can tell you right away that Marc Andre Fleury's positioning is TERRIBLE--he over-commits on over half of the shots he faces and relies on good coaching and a really deep, effective team to bail him out. You put him on the Rangers he'd make Mike Dunham look like an All-Star. Tim Thomas is amazingly athletic and has fantastic reflexes, but once again, his positioning is terrible. The reason he was never successful as a goalie until the age of 72 is because he is terrible at positioning and began rigorous amounts of yoga (I kid you not) to greatly improve his reflexes--and it actually worked. However, yet again, Thomas is bailed out by impeccable defense. I mean, honestly, it's not hard to get the numbers he's had in his short NHL career with Zdeno Chara playing in front of you for half of every game. And the Bruins' blueline outside of Chara is actually still pretty good. They also have a ton of great forwards who are stellar at both ends of the ice.

You want to see what I'm talking about? The Bruins have been lackluster this second half of the season and have also been plagued by injuries. And look at Thomas' numbers.

In closure, Lundqvist's worst season had him posting a 2.43 GAA. MAF has never had a season with a GAA below 2.30 (aside from this one, and even then, he could totally blow it in the final few games). MAF also has several seasons with absolutely terrible numbers (although he was on terrible teams so it's forgiveable). Thomas has only played like, what, 5 years? 6 years?

Getting into the Hall of Fame isn't about burst excellence. It's about sustained excellence. MAF hasn't provided that. Thomas most certainly hasn't provided that. Lundqvist totally has--I do agree that he needs at least one vezina or cup win to solidify his spot in the HOF--but if there's any goalie in the current NHL that deserves to go into the hall of fame, it's him.

And don't talk to me about Kipper. He's a great goalie, and I absolutely love him. I wish he had won the cup in 04, because then he'd definitely get consideration for the hall of fame. But again--sustained excellence. He really pretty much slowed down very quickly post-lockout and has pretty much been hot-and-cold ever since. Luongo's playoff stats get worse and worse every year. That shot between the legs in his first playoff stint with Vancouver may end up plaguing him for the rest of his career. I was watching TSN once and they showed Luongo's GAA for every year of the playoffs he had been with Vancouver--and it just keeps getting progressively worse and worse.

And, bear in mind, this is on the same team that has pretty much won their division almost every year since he joined the team and constantly has an INCREDIBLE roster playing in front of him. Again, Luongo is a fantastic goalie. But if you want an example of a guy who crashes in the postseason, Lundqvist isn't that guy; it's Luongo.

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03-27-2012, 10:20 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinderhizzle84 View Post
I think the craziest part about Henrik's Lundqvist statistics are his stats in the early years of his career when looked at side-by-side with his teammates.

I mean, when your best defenseman for the first few years of your career is Darius Kasparaitis,
Did you just pick a name when you said that? Rozsival was their best defenseman coming out of the lockout. Kasparaitis was the #5 guy in 2006 (#6 when Ozolinsh was healthy) and in the 2007 season barely clung to a #7 spot.

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05-14-2013, 10:18 AM
  #110
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He is on his way, no doubt.

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05-14-2013, 08:25 PM
  #111
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It's very hard to get into the HHOF as a goalie but I would be very surprised if the King doesn't make it.

Hard to tell if his career ended right now but the lockout season would hurt his case a bit.

One could make a pretty good case that he has been the best, or at least top 3 goalie in the 8 years since the lockout.

there are goalies in the HHOF with worse resumes.

Was fellow Ranger Giacomin better than the King in his 609 games?

Eddie made 32nd and Lunqvist 38th but that was before this season.

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05-15-2013, 09:34 AM
  #112
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Reading this thread and all the comments about Fleury v. Lundqvist...what a difference a year makes, huh

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05-15-2013, 10:05 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
A comment to this effect seems to surface in every HOF thread.

My canned response: are there any goalies with "a few" Vezinas who are NOT in?
Exactly my point, with a few meaning two or more. The point I was trying to make is that it's not a lone Vezina that's gonna get him in.

If you look at those who have only one on their resume in the last 30 years.

Ryan Miller (2009-10)
Miikka Kiprusoff (2005-06)
Jose Theodore (2001-02)
Olie Kolzig (1999-2000)
Jim Carey (1995-96)
Ron Hextall (1986-87)
Beezer (1985-86)
Pelle Lindbergh (1984-85)
Tom Barrasso (1983-84)
Pete Peeters (1982-83)

Only Barrasso has a Cup(s) and a Vezina and is not in the HHOF. The majority of the players, while very good and all with a similar range of wins (250-350, with Carey being the lone exception) are still on the outside looking in. What would make Henrik any different?

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05-15-2013, 10:13 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
-MAF will have more than just wins, he'll have great stats and at least one Cup.
-MAF most assuredly isn't seen as one of the best goalies in the league? Not sure how much truth there is to that right now. Anyways, next year I guarantee you he'll be considered one of the best.
-MAF will retire in the top 10 in wins, ahead of guys like Osgood and Vernon. He could be in the top 10 by his early to mid 30's. He won't even need to be have Brodeur-esque to have good win totals. Because of the shootout, win totals will mean less, and we'll have a few guys with 400+ wins, but still, I'd bet that MAF will end up with a lot of wins, good stats, and at least 2 Cups.
Somebody should have offered to put a cash wager on this.

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05-15-2013, 10:54 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Somebody should have offered to put a cash wager on this.
MAF is so hot and cold.. he'll be back when he is hot again.

If he ever developed some consistency he would be an upper level goalie..

As for Lundqvist I think that he is well on his way to being an HOFer.

He just needs to maintain his level of play a while longer and of course win a Stanley Cup. It is tough to get in as a goalie and with no Cup I don't see it happening.

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05-15-2013, 02:10 PM
  #116
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Wow what a difference 10 playoff games makes for Fleury.

BTW, to respond to "the point of saying MAF won a gold medal as a backup on Canada is to show that he was able to make a tough Canadian team", then why not say "he made a tough Canadian team"? Seems like someone was trying to use a relatively frivolous argument, hoping we wouldn't catch on to it.

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05-15-2013, 04:27 PM
  #117
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Exactly my point, with a few meaning two or more. The point I was trying to make is that it's not a lone Vezina that's gonna get him in.

If you look at those who have only one on their resume in the last 30 years.

Ryan Miller (2009-10)
Miikka Kiprusoff (2005-06)
Jose Theodore (2001-02)
Olie Kolzig (1999-2000)
Jim Carey (1995-96)
Ron Hextall (1986-87)
Beezer (1985-86)
Pelle Lindbergh (1984-85)
Tom Barrasso (1983-84)
Pete Peeters (1982-83)

Only Barrasso has a Cup(s) and a Vezina and is not in the HHOF. The majority of the players, while very good and all with a similar range of wins (250-350, with Carey being the lone exception) are still on the outside looking in. What would make Henrik any different?
Henrik could be the face of post-lockout goaltending and considered the best post-lockout when he retire, that a big difference right there, and could win others vezina during is career.

Also being almost always in the top 5 for a long run for him is better than some of those goaltender for sure.

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05-15-2013, 08:40 PM
  #118
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Henrik could be the face of post-lockout goaltending and considered the best post-lockout when he retire, that a big difference right there, and could win other vezina during his career.

Also being almost always in the top 5 for a long run for him is better than some of those goaltender for sure.
He also might be a goaltender who puts up great regular season numbers and doesn't sniff a Cup Final during his career similar to CuJo. Plenty of 30 wins seasons and top 10 appearances in most major goalie categories for both players.

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05-15-2013, 09:26 PM
  #119
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I think he would have to win something in his career to be considered for the HOF.
SEL championship, SEL MVP, Vezina, Olympic Gold. The cup isn't everything lol

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05-15-2013, 09:28 PM
  #120
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Wow.........Tony O? High praise, but Lundqvist has never even been a 1st or 2nd all-star and Esposito did it 5 times.



Well he did play Detroit twice. Both series were tight series. He wasn't playing against some patsies. And in 2009 it is easy to forget how clutch Fleury was that postseason. He had a couple vapour lock moments, but he rebounded every time with a spectacular performance. He made incredible saves in each playoff round. Each time it could have altered the series. Against Jeff Carter in the Philly series, Ovechkin in Game 7, Staal against Carolina and then brilliant stops against Cleary late in Game 6 on a breakaway that would have tied the game and then who can forget the highway robbery on Lidstrom? The guy got the monkey off his back in dramatic fashion. Yeah, I'd say he stepped it up big time.



Why is it that a 27 year old with two trips to the final, an Olympic Gold as a back up, plenty of wins in his young career a "joke" to be mentioned just on projection? He was 9th in Hart voting in 2011. Look at him this year too and while Malkin deservingly is getting the press it also helps that Fleury has played very strong this year.
Team performance











His performance.

You don't get into the HOF by not sucking during 2 cup runs (only one victory) with two of the 3 best forwards on earth on your team and by being a backup. HOF piggy backer? Never heard of it. ESPECIALLY have you not seen his last two PO performances? He hasn't really done anything all world in Reg season play either. has he ever been considered the top goalie in the league at any point? For most of his career he's been outside the top 5. Vezina nomination? Let alone Vezina wins. People seriously overrating him and it's just amazing especially considering the last few years and his first few years. I now realize this was started a year ago. Regardless the MAF boosters looked foolish then and I'm glad the past year has only proven that further. Aside from the bolded part this whole argument stands last year as well.


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05-15-2013, 09:30 PM
  #121
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He also might be a goaltender who puts up great regular season numbers and doesn't sniff a Cup Final during his career similar to CuJo. Plenty of 30 wins seasons and top 10 appearances in most major goalie categories for both players.
But Cujo had great moment, but was he ever a serious vezina candidate (Lundqvist did) a considered top 3 in a lot of season ?

It is a little bit if like your are putting all the best attributes of a list of non-hall of famer goaltender's into one and saying Lundvist is not that much better than that.

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05-15-2013, 09:55 PM
  #122
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But Cujo had great moment, but was he ever a serious vezina candidate (Lundqvist did) a considered top 3 in a lot of season ?

It is a little bit if like your are putting all the best attributes of a list of non-hall of famer goaltender's into one and saying Lundvist is not that much better than that.
In 19 Seasons Cujo finished 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10, 11, in Vezina voting.

In 8 Seasons Lundqvist has finished 1, 3, 3, 3, 4, 6, 6, and this season will have another top 3 finish.


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05-15-2013, 09:59 PM
  #123
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Lundqvist is the consistently best goalie since Brodeur. If there were a belt, where one had to actually beat the champ convincingly, Henrik would have had the belt for 5 years now.

Roy, Hasek, Marty, Lundqvist. No on has been definitely better than Hank for more than one year in the last 5.

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05-15-2013, 10:09 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by shinchanyo View Post
Team performance











His performance.

You don't get into the HOF by not sucking during 2 cup runs (only one victory) with two of the 3 best forwards on earth on your team and by being a backup. HOF piggy backer? Never heard of it. ESPECIALLY have you not seen his last two PO performances? He hasn't really done anything all world in Reg season play either. has he ever been considered the top goalie in the league at any point? For most of his career he's been outside the top 5. Vezina nomination? Let alone Vezina wins. People seriously overrating him and it's just amazing especially considering the last few years and his first few years. I now realize this was started a year ago. Regardless the MAF boosters looked foolish then and I'm glad the past year has only proven that further. Aside from the bolded part this whole argument stands last year as well.
For the bolded... you meant to say "all"

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05-15-2013, 10:27 PM
  #125
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I've always found it bizarre (although I suppose not entirely unexpected, given some of the national biases that exist here) that an "accomplishment" such as being selected to be on a Canada team in a best-on-best tournament is regarded by some as equal if not better as being an actual key participant (such as the starting goaltender) for another country that won such a tournament.

I suppose, given how a decent portion of the media seem to act as if the 1998 and 2006 Olympics never occurred, this isn't altogether surprising.

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