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Hearing for Torres on Stoll hit (Thurs 9am PT, NYC; w/DW); out for rest of WCSF

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05-15-2013, 09:34 PM
  #326
SJeasy
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
So, if a player gets hit in the head, is out for 6 months, get's hit by another player and it takes him out for a year because of his previous concussion the second player to hit him should suffer a greater consequence? If a player just has genetically bad knees and another player takes out his knee and the guy needs surgery, is that fair?

I agree with the general idea, but I think it's very hard to implement in a fair way. I would compare it more to racing than the general driving public. Cars are gonna crash on a race course. Happens almost every race in NASCAR, but that's the nature of the sport. You really need to judge intent. But it's hard to know what's in someone's head.

I don't know the answer. I mean, I don't understand how it's not a penalty to cross check someone who is down on the ice in front of his goal when the puck is half way down the ice, but it's let go all the time.

Just a thought experiment, but how responsible should Referee's be that let games get out of control?
Excellent argument with regards to injuries whose severity can increase with repetition (eg headshots, kneeing). It wouldn't apply to cutting injuries from stomps.

On refs, they are penalized indirectly through playoff assignment (extra pay). "Body Bags" Marouelli rarely got significant playoff time and to my knowledge is not a supervisor. He was not a good game controller and frequently passed on safety infractions which led to altercations. Leggo is very similar and gets little playoff time. Kowal calls but is not a good game controller and this is his first full playoffs. Of the current ex-ref supervisors that I know, all were good on game control (McGeough, Koharski, Shick and McCreary). It would be interesting to hear from Shick on safety as his wife is an MD.

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05-15-2013, 09:38 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Gene Parmesan View Post
I think DW views it as Stoll changed his posture as Torres was already committed to the hit. Torres was kind of screwed when that happened. Its a slim chance and I agree that they can't afford another forward loss.
It's possible that he views it that way but I don't see that favoring Torres in this instance. Stoll's posture was low at the time Torres commits to it. That means he's going after a vulnerable player and the slow rise from Stoll as Torres is incoming doesn't mean much of anything here. I think the league sees it is Torres, sees that he commits when Stoll is low so he's going after a vulnerable player, he hits the head from the blindside, and are preparing to throw the book at him.

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Old
05-15-2013, 09:40 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by richo View Post
I knew the moment I saw the hit they would do this. I am so angry I could go on a long rant. This league has become a league for babies. I'd use another word but I might get in trouble. This hit was fine. No leaving the feet, no elbow nothing wrong.

Torres not an important player? This guy is much better than people realize. He's always where he should be on the ice. His hockey sense is incredible. This makes up for his lack of pure talent. I'd take this guy on my team any day and he HAS made a difference for the Sharks.
If he would've helped out just a little on the Couture face off at end of the 1st, they don't score the 1st goal and its a different game.
IMO, the penalty was enough. A veteran like Stoll should keep his eyes up, he has some responsibility too. Was not a "dirty" hit.

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05-15-2013, 10:01 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Excellent argument with regards to injuries whose severity can increase with repetition (eg headshots, kneeing). It wouldn't apply to cutting injuries from stomps.

On refs, they are penalized indirectly through playoff assignment (extra pay). "Body Bags" Marouelli rarely got significant playoff time and to my knowledge is not a supervisor. He was not a good game controller and frequently passed on safety infractions which led to altercations. Leggo is very similar and gets little playoff time. Kowal calls but is not a good game controller and this is his first full playoffs. Of the current ex-ref supervisors that I know, all were good on game control (McGeough, Koharski, Shick and McCreary). It would be interesting to hear from Shick on safety as his wife is an MD.
Yeah, I don't think it applies to some things. I don't think it should apply to someone checking someone in the face with their stick or stomping. I hate the swinging of sticks as well. Wasn't happy with Vlasic, but at least he didn't connect.

I've heard you talk about the ref's like that before and I understand, but I sometimes feel that when they let a game out of control and something happens that it's kinda their fault and maybe that should be taken into consideration, but it would be really hard and I don't know how you would do it.

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05-15-2013, 10:07 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
Ok, I'[ve seen both angles. No penalty, no suspension. If any part of Torres hits Stolls head it's his upper back. Not even a shoulder follow thru. THis is very clear watching a frame at a time because you can see when Stolls head kicks back and it's not until the middle of Raffis back is lined up with Stolls head. I'm still not convinced the head whip is even because of direct contact. I think it's because of the contact raffi made with Stoll body and the body twisting back pulls the head back.

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05-15-2013, 10:11 PM
  #331
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This reminds me of the Seinfeld/Keith Hernandez spit/Zapruder film episode. Compare the Newman head snap-back to Stoll's...IDENTICAL!


Last edited by KT: 05-15-2013 at 10:18 PM.
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Old
05-15-2013, 10:15 PM
  #332
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No way Torres gets suspended for that hit, I would be shocked

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05-15-2013, 10:24 PM
  #333
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No way Torres gets suspended for that hit, I would be shocked
Get ready to be shocked.

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05-15-2013, 10:25 PM
  #334
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I got this reference.

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05-15-2013, 10:27 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I made my point. I can't think of any change of the wording that will make it more clear. He can go lower and avert his head so that is not a legit objection. I don't buy the excuses of "hockey" minds that have objected in the past. They let Torres pass on a clear hit to Seabrook's head when he was behind he net due to Seabrook's location on the ice. I consider that BS. They talk about the responsibility of the hittee. Again BS in my book. If you talk about auto collisions, none of these excuses would pass muster. It is a game; it is not life and death. The players are entitled to a healthy retirement and not have their health compromised by people who override the well researched evidence coming from the medical professions regarding impacts to the head.

I personally think that with hits that are on or near the head that the suspension should go along with the injuries. Just like civil law in driving. It would probably be a better motivator to issue suspensions based on injury caused and add one or two games to the amount that the other player is out for. Escalate the additional games for repeat offenders. It would be the best deterrent. I doubt any more stomping incidents would occur because you would see suspensions of a half season and more just for those.
do we really want players to start targeting opponents low?
imo, its another situation where a player's height is his worst enemy .. Thornton/Perron

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05-15-2013, 10:45 PM
  #336
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What's just so galling about this is how chintzy of a hit that was for him to get called on the carpet for. We all knew he was a risk to go a step to far and be done but this definitely was not that.

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05-15-2013, 11:15 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by sub_zero94 View Post
do we really want players to start targeting opponents low?
imo, its another situation where a player's height is his worst enemy .. Thornton/Perron
IMO, they should target the lower ribcage. I don't want hyper low (waist level) for a bunch of reasons.

JT/Perron is a good example of what needs to happen in teaching hitting. I don't think it is OK for a player who because of height can deliver a devastating blow to do so. I think it is imperative that taller players learn to bend a bit more when delivering hits. Level the playing field.

Sturm gave a good example of what needs to change. He explained what is taught. It was to go in for the hit and lift into it with the legs. Basically from this quote, players have been taught to hit up rather than to hit through.

For others,
There was an interesting quote from Torres about hits, implicating coaches when he was with the Canucks. At the time of one of his controversial hits, he defended himself by saying that if he didn't do it that he wouldn't be employed as a player. Are any coaches encouraging players to hit illegally?

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05-15-2013, 11:20 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
IMO, they should target the lower ribcage. I don't want hyper low (waist level) for a bunch of reasons.

JT/Perron is a good example of what needs to happen in teaching hitting. I don't think it is OK for a player who because of height can deliver a devastating blow to do so. I think it is imperative that taller players learn to bend a bit more when delivering hits. Level the playing field.

Sturm gave a good example of what needs to change. He explained what is taught. It was to go in for the hit and lift into it with the legs. Basically from this quote, players have been taught to hit up rather than to hit through.

For others,
There was an interesting quote from Torres about hits, implicating coaches when he was with the Canucks. At the time of one of his controversial hits, he defended himself by saying that if he didn't do it that he wouldn't be employed as a player. Are any coaches encouraging players to hit illegally?
I don't think it's much of a stretch imagine that dirty hits are quietly encouraged by some coaches.

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Old
05-15-2013, 11:22 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by sjshark91 View Post
Get ready to be shocked.
Yup.
Torres is definitely a useful forward for us and he will be missed...but, I think if he's gone for a long time (4-5 or rest of PO's) the team is very likely to respond positively on the ice and one of the good things about this SJ team is that there is now good scoring depth. A chastised and repentant Torres is not as effective. I think SJ still wins this in 6.
They looked real good last night for a LOT of the game and while Quick made some sweet saves, he was VERY lucky too, because of the juicy rebounds he got away with. There were many bad puck-luck sequences in there. I wouldn't change much, keep speed, pressure, and hitting and the queens will fold like a lawn chair.
Don't make Joe angry.


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05-15-2013, 11:23 PM
  #340
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childhood flashback:

the feeling of waiting for dad to get home and wondering whether I'd be punished and how severely for what I did wrong

*shudder*


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05-15-2013, 11:33 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by AstroDan View Post
Yup.
Torres is definitely a useful forward for us and he will be missed...but, I think if he's gone for a long time (4-5 or rest of PO's) the team is very likely to respond positively on the ice and one of the good things about this SJ team is that there is now good scoring depth. A chastised and repentant Torres is not as effective. I think SJ still wins this in 6.
They looked real good last night for a LOT of the game and while Quick made some sweet saves, he was VERY lucky too, because of the juicy rebounds he got away with. There were many bad puck-luck sequences in there. I wouldn't change much, keep speed, pressure, and hitting and the queens will fold like a lawn chair.
Don't make Joe angry.

We have scoring depth WITH Torres and Havlat in. Without them we're a two line again while Pavs is alone.

Our PP is to have to score is to win this series. Our 5 on 5 play is way too conservative to do anything against the queens.

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05-15-2013, 11:49 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by SJSharks42 View Post
We have scoring depth WITH Torres and Havlat in. Without them we're a two line again while Pavs is alone.

Our PP is to have to score is to win this series. Our 5 on 5 play is way too conservative to do anything against the queens.
Torres and Havlat does add depth. Unless against Minn this, year, Marty's so-so and Torres isn't a "scorer" anyway.
Let Kennedy and Kearns play, move Wingels back with 12 and 39, Shep with Pavs and roll em.

Pathetic, positive attitude, huh?

edit**** I'm gonna post same lines in game 2 GDT and not post until after game 2 when we have a win, because we get very maudlin after losses here.

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05-15-2013, 11:54 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
It's possible that he views it that way but I don't see that favoring Torres in this instance. Stoll's posture was low at the time Torres commits to it. That means he's going after a vulnerable player and the slow rise from Stoll as Torres is incoming doesn't mean much of anything here. I think the league sees it is Torres, sees that he commits when Stoll is low so he's going after a vulnerable player, he hits the head from the blindside, and are preparing to throw the book at him.
except none of that is really true, its not a head shot, its borderline blindside since the hit was literally shoulder to shoulder from every angle I have seen.

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05-15-2013, 11:57 PM
  #344
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How big is Havlat's return? Sharks will definitely be in a pickle without Havlat and Torres. I say they should just bunch the 3 lines up and skate 7 defenseman. They will have to bite the bullet with Pavelski's line and bump Gomez to 3C or LW with Sheppard or Desi in the mix. Leaving Kearns and Sheppard/Desi on the bottom. However, this will get Demers in the mix and he could bump Hannan down to the 7th spot on defense.

Marleau-Couture-Wingels
Galiardi-Thornton-Burns
Sheppard-Gomez-Pavelski
Desjardins-Kearns

Irwin-Boyle
Vlasic-Braun
Stuart-Demers
Hannan

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05-15-2013, 11:57 PM
  #345
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except none of that is really true, its not a head shot, its borderline blindside since the hit was literally shoulder to shoulder from every angle I have seen.
Just because the shoulder clipped Stoll's shoulder doesn't negate that Torres hit Stoll in the head whether you want to call it with the back of his shoulder or his back, he got Stoll's head on the follow-through. It is textbook blindside from the angle he took. It is the same angle Thornton took on Perron.

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05-15-2013, 11:58 PM
  #346
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Don't the Kings have 2 injured forwards as well now?

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05-16-2013, 12:17 AM
  #347
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
IMO, they should target the lower ribcage. I don't want hyper low (waist level) for a bunch of reasons.

JT/Perron is a good example of what needs to happen in teaching hitting. I don't think it is OK for a player who because of height can deliver a devastating blow to do so. I think it is imperative that taller players learn to bend a bit more when delivering hits. Level the playing field.

Sturm gave a good example of what needs to change. He explained what is taught. It was to go in for the hit and lift into it with the legs. Basically from this quote, players have been taught to hit up rather than to hit through.

For others,
There was an interesting quote from Torres about hits, implicating coaches when he was with the Canucks. At the time of one of his controversial hits, he defended himself by saying that if he didn't do it that he wouldn't be employed as a player. Are any coaches encouraging players to hit illegally?
I'm sorry but all of your arguments on this subject just sound theoretical to me. I know people hate when I say this but frankly it's true... You have to at least have played a contact sport to be able to make judgments about these situations. You make it sound like people can just adjust their path perfectly by millimeters to attain the perfect attack angle when attempting to hit someone. All this while simultaneously constantly calculating how your target will react and adjust their path to avoid the hit. It's just ridiculous. These guys are going fast and the decision to hit someone is made and how the person being hit factors into the outcome and the repercussions. Regardless of any of that.... In this particular instance there was no reason for a penalty call. The shoulder was targeted and the desired hit was achieved. Any head contact was minimal, incidental and unintentional. Nothing about his path was of the hit was predatory. **** even Fraser said "Stoll was eligible to be hit".

As far as I'm concerned the the league owe Torres and the Sharks an apology for dragging him to NY for this ******** circus.


Last edited by NWShark*: 05-16-2013 at 12:31 AM.
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Old
05-16-2013, 12:20 AM
  #348
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Just because the shoulder clipped Stoll's shoulder doesn't negate that Torres hit Stoll in the head whether you want to call it with the back of his shoulder or his back, he got Stoll's head on the follow-through. It is textbook blindside from the angle he took. It is the same angle Thornton took on Perron.
If Torres gets suspended (which he is) then

Bieska
Penner
Orpik
Ovi
etc

Should all be sitting for multiple games as all had plays worse than that. I ****ing hate torres but hes getting railroaded if its more than 1 game.

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05-16-2013, 12:21 AM
  #349
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Just because the shoulder clipped Stoll's shoulder doesn't negate that Torres hit Stoll in the head whether you want to call it with the back of his shoulder or his back, he got Stoll's head on the follow-through. It is textbook blindside from the angle he took. It is the same angle Thornton took on Perron.
It negates the primary issue that the head was the principal point of contact. That right there means it wasn't a penalty.

Fraser said Stoll was eligible to be checked. It's one of the few points he got right in his assessment of the hit.

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05-16-2013, 12:22 AM
  #350
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Don't the Kings have 2 injured forwards as well now?
Clifford, Stoll, Greene, and Mitchell are all out. Basically two third liners, a top pairing Dman, and a second pairing Dman.

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