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Old
05-16-2013, 02:14 PM
  #76
Bluesman91
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Blues fan here. I think the Blues could be very interested in Miller+Vanek. Would Halak+Stewart+Cole be a good start?

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05-16-2013, 02:24 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Bluesman91 View Post
Blues fan here. I think the Blues could be very interested in Miller+Vanek. Would Halak+Stewart+Cole be a good start?
make it Oshie, Shattenkirk and Halak and you have a deal

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05-16-2013, 02:27 PM
  #78
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make it Oshie, Shattenkirk and Halak and you have a deal
Yeah I think that would be an easy no from St. Louis. Good luck to you guys in the off-season.

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05-16-2013, 02:35 PM
  #79
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Yeah I think that would be an easy no from St. Louis. Good luck to you guys in the off-season.
so the difference between
Stewart - Oshie
&
Cole - Shattenkirk
took it from "a good starting point" to an "easy no"?

In your offer, you don't alleviate any cap space.... so you take on 13 million in cap space, and still have to sign Petriangelo, Shattenkirk and Berglund. Can you even afford to do that?

split the difference?

One of Oshie or Shattenkirk
One of Stewart or Cole
?
i.e. Oshie and Cole or Shattenkirk and Stewart

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05-16-2013, 02:54 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
so the difference between
Stewart - Oshie
&
Cole - Shattenkirk
took it from "a good starting point" to an "easy no"?

In your offer, you don't alleviate any cap space.... so you take on 13 million in cap space, and still have to sign Petriangelo, Shattenkirk and Berglund. Can you even afford to do that?

split the difference?

One of Oshie or Shattenkirk
One of Stewart or Cole
?
i.e. Oshie and Cole or Shattenkirk and Stewart
Yes, Stewart simply does not work in our system. Stewart and Oshie are about as equal in trade value but Oshie is the biggest marketed player in St. Louis and he fits Hitch's system well.

Cole to Shattenkirk is where it got messed up. Cole is a LHD which we are now stacked on, our RHD without Shattenkirk looks something along the lines of Pietrangelo, Polak, Fairchild, and Hakanpaa. If Shattenkirk were being moved, we would be wanting Sekera back to fill the hole Shattenkirk left.

We are the 2nd lowest paying team in the NHL. Moving Stewart will free up cap space and honestly Berglund won't be getting anything over 2.7 million dollars for how inconsistent he was this year and will get a prove-it contract. Shattenkirk will get around 4-4.5 million. Pietrangelo could get 7 million but that's a wash considering it's just the cap space freed up from not re-signing McDonald, Langenbrunner and Nichol alone. Not to mention I doubt we re-sign Leo unless he is taking a major paycut. We would be close, but there isn't any doubt that I think Armstrong could make it under the cap.

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05-16-2013, 03:00 PM
  #81
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Heard tell that Couver is going to be very active as soon as they can be. Kesler and Edler will probably be in play.

Both of these possibilities must be explored. I'd honestly rather have a healthy Kesler. Maybe something centered around Vanek for Kesler could be workable.

Call me crazy, but if I were Darcy, I might put Myers on the table for Edler. Both have the potential to be franchise defensemen. To this point, Edler's just better. But Myers' ceiling could prompt Gillis to want to deal.

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05-16-2013, 03:05 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Bluesman91 View Post
Yes, Stewart simply does not work in our system. Stewart and Oshie are about as equal in trade value but Oshie is the biggest marketed player in St. Louis and he fits Hitch's system well.

Cole to Shattenkirk is where it got messed up. Cole is a LHD which we are now stacked on, our RHD without Shattenkirk looks something along the lines of Pietrangelo, Polak, Fairchild, and Hakanpaa. If Shattenkirk were being moved, we would be wanting Sekera back to fill the hole Shattenkirk left.
So Oshie, Cole, Halak for Miller and Vanek

Look, it's got to hurt a little bit, right? Your adding a premier goal scorer and "name" goalie... I believe their trade value is greatly diminished because they only have 1 year remaining. If they were signed to multi year deals, this package wouldn't be enough to get ONE of them, let alone both.

I'd prefer to do Oshie for Vanek straight up

Quote:
We are the 2nd lowest paying team in the NHL. Moving Stewart will free up cap space and honestly Berglund won't be getting anything over 2.7 million dollars for how inconsistent he was this year and will get a prove-it contract. Shattenkirk will get around 4-4.5 million. Pietrangelo could get 7 million but that's a wash considering it's just the cap space freed up from not re-signing McDonald, Langenbrunner and Nichol alone. Not to mention I doubt we re-sign Leo unless he is taking a major paycut. We would be close, but there isn't any doubt that I think Armstrong could make it under the cap.
moving Stewart doesn't free up any cap space, he's a RFA.... Moving Oshie DOES free up cap space as he's under contract.

Looks like you already have 41 mil in cap space committed, but that's only with 16 players. (10F, 4D, 2G)

Your offer only removed Halak's 3.75, pushing you to almost 27 million in cap space. Cole and Stewart are RFA, and dont account for any cap space.

Now add Miller and Vanek = 13.3
Petirangelo = ~5.5
Shattenkirk = ~3.75
Berglund = ~2.75

12F, 6D, 2G = ~66 million (over the cap already)

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05-16-2013, 03:15 PM
  #83
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If they're talking to the Blues, Jaskin needs to be part of the deal. If it has to be someone to eat the salary for the Blues, fine. But Buffalo needs some bit of youth in the deal -- Jaskin would be that piece.

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05-16-2013, 03:17 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
So Oshie, Cole, Halak for Miller and Vanek

Look, it's got to hurt a little bit, right? Your adding a premier goal scorer and "name" goalie... I believe their trade value is greatly diminished because they only have 1 year remaining. If they were signed to multi year deals, this package wouldn't be enough to get ONE of them, let alone both.

I'd prefer to do Oshie for Vanek straight up



moving Stewart doesn't free up any cap space, he's a RFA.... Moving Oshie DOES free up cap space as he's under contract.

Looks like you already have 41 mil in cap space committed, but that's only with 16 players. (10F, 4D, 2G)

Your offer only removed Halak's 3.75, pushing you to almost 27 million in cap space. Cole and Stewart are RFA, and dont account for any cap space.

Now add Miller and Vanek = 13.3
Petirangelo = ~5.5
Shattenkirk = ~3.75
Berglund = ~2.75

12F, 6D, 2G = ~66 million (over the cap already)
I wouldn't mind swapping Oshie out for Stewart. I'm not huge on Oshie but I feel as the organization is. Also you aren't accounting for us trading off Elliott for assets and not re-signing some of our UFA's.

FORWARDS
Thomas Vanek ($7.143m) / David Backes ($4.500m) / Alexander Steen ($3.363m)
David Perron ($3.813m) / Patrik Berglund ($2.400m) / T.J. Oshie ($4.175m)
Jaden Schwartz ($1.167m) / Vladimir Sobotka ($1.300m) / Vladimir Tarasenko ($1.750m)
Adam Cracknell ($0.550m) / Chris Porter ($0.675m) / Ryan Reaves ($0.600m)
Dmitrij Jaskin ($0.894m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Jay Bouwmeester ($6.680m) / Alex Pietrangelo ($6.500m)
Barret Jackman ($3.167m) / Kevin Shattenkirk ($4.500m)
Kris Russell ($1.300m) / Roman Polak ($2.750m)
GOALTENDERS
Ryan Miller ($6.250m)
Jake Allen ($0.827m)
------
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,302,232; BONUSES: $1,432,500
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $1,430,268

Would be ideal and super close to the cap. Also you could swap Oshie and put Stewart's name there and I really don't see any difference in contract between Oshie and Stewart, maybe he will get a little less than Osh.

But I think Blues organization would rather trade off Stewart and Rattie and have Buffalo retain some salary than trading off Oshie due to him putting butts in seats and his name on what seems like 70% of fans backs. Most of STL is made up of Cardinals fans who are casual Blues fans and let me tell you how much the casual fan in STL LOVES Oshie. I don't get it but that's just how it is around here lol.


EDIT to above post: I could see Jaskin traded in a deal to retain salary but I could see Rattie going before Jaskin does but that's simply because Jaskin fits the system more than Rattie does.

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05-16-2013, 03:23 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluesman91 View Post
I wouldn't mind swapping Oshie out for Stewart. I'm not huge on Oshie but I feel as the organization is. Also you aren't accounting for us trading off Elliott for assets and not re-signing some of our UFA's.

FORWARDS
Thomas Vanek ($7.143m) / David Backes ($4.500m) / Alexander Steen ($3.363m)
David Perron ($3.813m) / Patrik Berglund ($2.400m) / T.J. Oshie ($4.175m)
Jaden Schwartz ($1.167m) / Vladimir Sobotka ($1.300m) / Vladimir Tarasenko ($1.750m)
Adam Cracknell ($0.550m) / Chris Porter ($0.675m) / Ryan Reaves ($0.600m)
Dmitrij Jaskin ($0.894m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Jay Bouwmeester ($6.680m) / Alex Pietrangelo ($6.500m)
Barret Jackman ($3.167m) / Kevin Shattenkirk ($4.500m)
Kris Russell ($1.300m) / Roman Polak ($2.750m)
GOALTENDERS
Ryan Miller ($6.250m)
Jake Allen ($0.827m)
------
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,302,232; BONUSES: $1,432,500
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $1,430,268

Would be ideal and super close to the cap. Also you could swap Oshie and put Stewart's name there and I really don't see any difference in contract between Oshie and Stewart, maybe he will get a little less than Osh.

But I think Blues organization would rather trade off Stewart and Rattie and have Buffalo retain some salary than trading off Oshie due to him putting butts in seats and his name on what seems like 70% of fans backs. Most of STL is made up of Cardinals fans who are casual Blues fans and let me tell you how much the casual fan in STL LOVES Oshie. I don't get it but that's just how it is around here lol.


EDIT to above post: I could see Jaskin traded in a deal to retain salary but I could see Rattie going before Jaskin does but that's simply because Jaskin fits the system more than Rattie does.
Is St Louis going to spend to the cap?

Vanek (Buffalo retains 50% of his cap) for Oshie and Jaskin (conditional 1st if Vanek re-signs)

Miller (Buffalo retains 50% of his cap) for Cole and Halak
(conditional 2nd if Miller re-signs)

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05-16-2013, 03:26 PM
  #86
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Polak would be a good + from the Blues. He's stuck on their bottom pairing because he's a righty, but would form an excellent shutdown pairing with Sekera.

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05-16-2013, 03:28 PM
  #87
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Heard tell that Couver is going to be very active as soon as they can be. Kesler and Edler will probably be in play.

Both of these possibilities must be explored. I'd honestly rather have a healthy Kesler. Maybe something centered around Vanek for Kesler could be workable.

Call me crazy, but if I were Darcy, I might put Myers on the table for Edler. Both have the potential to be franchise defensemen. To this point, Edler's just better. But Myers' ceiling could prompt Gillis to want to deal.
No...Myers and Edler are too similar in terms of their mentality. Edler is older but still displays all of the aggravating tendencies of Myers...inconsistent play, losses his confidence way too easily, costly turnovers...etc.

Sure he is better in the offensive zone, but Myers is younger and it is somewhat possible he might snap out of his mental funk.

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05-16-2013, 03:29 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wearegodawful View Post
Heard tell that Couver is going to be very active as soon as they can be. Kesler and Edler will probably be in play.

Both of these possibilities must be explored. I'd honestly rather have a healthy Kesler. Maybe something centered around Vanek for Kesler could be workable.

Call me crazy, but if I were Darcy, I might put Myers on the table for Edler. Both have the potential to be franchise defensemen. To this point, Edler's just better. But Myers' ceiling could prompt Gillis to want to deal.
So you read Eklund's blog?

After listening to Gillis's presser, I don't see either of those two being available, but if they are I wouldn't try for them. We are headed in a specific direction, and neither of those players fit.

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05-16-2013, 03:37 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Is St Louis going to spend to the cap?

Vanek (Buffalo retains 50% of his cap) for Oshie and Jaskin (conditional 1st if Vanek re-signs)

Miller (Buffalo retains 50% of his cap) for Cole and Halak
(conditional 2nd if Miller re-signs)
We acquired Bouwmeester and his contract and our owner sold our AHL team. He's made moves showing he's willing to put money and spend to the cap (especially since it's being lowered).

Also while it would be nice to retain some of the salary, I believe Miller and Vanek would be here until their contracts are up. It can be conditional but by the time their contracts are up we are hoping Allen will be ready to take over for Miller and Tarasenko and Schwartz will be due for raises soon.

We can take on the salary if money management plays it right. I wouldn't mind throwing in the conditionals just to save us money and us never re-signing them. Don't think Buffalo eats half salary for both players for some conditionals picks on them re-signing. And if Oshie is being included I doubt Jaskin would be included as well. We would be losing out on 2 many players who can play a big body game which is our style of play.

But it all comes down to us being fans and that's the fun part about this all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Polak would be a good + from the Blues. He's stuck on their bottom pairing because he's a righty, but would form an excellent shutdown pairing with Sekera.
That certainly would be a hell of a pairing.

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05-16-2013, 03:42 PM
  #90
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I'd obviously trade for Kesler, but Edler doesn't really do anything for us unless he takes a step forward, Myers rebounds, or Pysyk really comes into his own. Otherwise, that leaves the entire blueline with one good defensive player in Sekera.

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05-16-2013, 03:51 PM
  #91
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We acquired Bouwmeester and his contract and our owner sold our AHL team. He's made moves showing he's willing to put money and spend to the cap (especially since it's being lowered).

Also while it would be nice to retain some of the salary, I believe Miller and Vanek would be here until their contracts are up. It can be conditional but by the time their contracts are up we are hoping Allen will be ready to take over for Miller and Tarasenko and Schwartz will be due for raises soon.

We can take on the salary if money management plays it right. I wouldn't mind throwing in the conditionals just to save us money and us never re-signing them. Don't think Buffalo eats half salary for both players for some conditionals picks on them re-signing. And if Oshie is being included I doubt Jaskin would be included as well. We would be losing out on 2 many players who can play a big body game which is our style of play.

But it all comes down to us being fans and that's the fun part about this all.

That certainly would be a hell of a pairing.
The conditionals are simply there to protect our value, if you let them both walk... it makes no difference

I think the retained salary helps offset the value you are giving up, leaving St Louis with cap/cash to continue to improve the roster for the cup run that a trade like this would be envisioning

Getting Miller/Vanek for a combined 6-7 million instead of 13 million adds a lot of value to the trade IMO.

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05-16-2013, 03:56 PM
  #92
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The Blues offers are super intriguing, they seem like perfect suitors for Vanek and Miller. I feel like Darcy would want a 1st out of it though, I'd like to stay away from Stewart/Cole.

To let you hold on to Oshie and Shattenkirk what about Halak/Jaskin/Polak/1st and maybe conditionals for Van/Miller?

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05-16-2013, 04:03 PM
  #93
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Getting Miller/Vanek for a combined 6-7 million instead of 13 million adds a lot of value to the trade IMO.
Based on the Kotalik trade I would say $6-7 million is worth a two 2nd round draft picks.

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05-16-2013, 04:07 PM
  #94
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The Blues offers are super intriguing, they seem like perfect suitors for Vanek and Miller. I feel like Darcy would want a 1st out of it though, I'd like to stay away from Stewart/Cole.

To let you hold on to Oshie and Shattenkirk what about Halak/Jaskin/Polak/1st and maybe conditionals for Van/Miller?
While that offer would be better, it would require Buffalo to hold back salary because we aren't sending enough salary back to be cap compliant acquiring Vanek and Miller. And obviously if we needed salary to be held it would be a lopsided trade and not very fair for Buffalo.

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05-16-2013, 05:04 PM
  #95
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While that offer would be better, it would require Buffalo to hold back salary because we aren't sending enough salary back to be cap compliant acquiring Vanek and Miller. And obviously if we needed salary to be held it would be a lopsided trade and not very fair for Buffalo.
your original offer did not include any salary being taken off your books

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05-16-2013, 05:14 PM
  #96
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your original offer did not include any salary being taken off your books
Yes but by not moving Stewart would mean we would resign him adding that couple million puts us over cap unless we just let teams offer sheet Stewy and take the compensation. Of course that is unless Armstrong can sign our RFAs for cheaper than what I posted.

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05-16-2013, 05:21 PM
  #97
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Sometimes a trade shakes a player into action to be the player others see in him but he has not brought forward. At least there is some interest there from the Jets in Staff -- if they can leverage that into making a hockey trade, great. At this point, it's probably going to be scratch-and-dent for scratch-and-dent. Burmistrov's issues may be why Regier reportedly asked for that additional second rounder -- a bit of insurance against the rumors of the kid being uncoachable/headcase.
I get that, but why bother taking that chance? If Stafford is to be traded and there's a choice between a problem child, a character player (even a bottom six role player), or a draft pick because the character guy isn't available, I'm not bothering with the problem child. Isn't this exactly what Buffalo is trying to avoid now anyway? They want character players, and some that can display toughness and leadership, not another whiner that doesn't like being coached.

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05-16-2013, 11:15 PM
  #98
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Hey dudes! I'm an Oilers fan. I just had a laugh because you guys are obviously talking about ol' Boyd and ol' Bryan the same way that we are over on our board.

I hate going to the main trade boards because they get overrun, so you're not going to be surprised when I ask this:

First, what are the possibilities that Myers could be moved? Are there any packages from Edmonton that don't include the big five that would be interesting?

Second, were most of Myers troubles from how Ruff was coaching him? I always got the sense that Ruff was trying to make Myers like Chara-lite by having him stay at home and use his amazing wingspan and mobility to shut down players. For me, though, Myers is more like a Scott Niedermayer who is at his best skating forward and joining a rush.

Do you think he'll turn it around next year?

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05-16-2013, 11:19 PM
  #99
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Hey dudes! I'm an Oilers fan. I just had a laugh because you guys are obviously talking about ol' Boyd and ol' Bryan the same way that we are over on our board.

I hate going to the main trade boards because they get overrun, so you're not going to be surprised when I ask this:

First, what are the possibilities that Myers could be moved? Are there any packages from Edmonton that don't include the big five that would be interesting?

Second, were most of Myers troubles from how Ruff was coaching him? I always got the sense that Ruff was trying to make Myers like Chara-lite by having him stay at home and use his amazing wingspan and mobility to shut down players. For me, though, Myers is more like a Scott Niedermayer who is at his best skating forward and joining a rush.

Do you think he'll turn it around next year?
did you really come and ask for one of our most prized assets (yes, he struggled/regressed last year)... and start by taking the "big 5" off the table?

come on man...

row boats don't buy battleships

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05-16-2013, 11:27 PM
  #100
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I sure did, haha! People on our board think that we could design a package around our 7th overall, but I keep thinking that it'd require Eberle.

Would I be able to get your opinion on his coaching, by the way? I love Tyler.

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