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Old
05-15-2013, 02:10 PM
  #576
iceberg
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Originally Posted by Huis Clos View Post
Long-term is a first round playoff exit in five games more valuable than a top five pick?
Parise and Sutter will be with Minessota long term too, so i don't see how a first round exit in their first year with the team is a sign of failure.

Last year, if presented with the options of adding Parise and Sutter to our roster or getting Seth Jones in the draft one year latter, i bet every Avs fan would have choosen Parise and Sutter.

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05-15-2013, 03:27 PM
  #577
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Parise and Suter will never win the cup in Minnesota.

Wild will have to add a whole lot more to be a cup contender, but with the money invested in those two players, i doubt they can add anymore big pieces to take the next step. All they are is borderline playoff team.

Can't win with one line and one top d-man, that's what Wild have.

Parise-Koivu-Heatley line does pretty much all the scoring for the Wild.

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05-15-2013, 03:44 PM
  #578
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Originally Posted by the_fan View Post
Parise and Suter will never win the cup in Minnesota.

Wild will have to add a whole lot more to be a cup contender, but with the money invested in those two players, i doubt they can add anymore big pieces to take the next step. All they are is borderline playoff team.

Can't win with one line and one top d-man, that's what Wild have.

Parise-Koivu-Heatley line does pretty much all the scoring for the Wild.
Okay, that's kinda big statement. I would give them year or two more before making such a statement.

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05-15-2013, 04:51 PM
  #579
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Of course, Jones doesn't have much choice in coming here. The problem with mad libbing UFAs on your roster is there are up to 29 other teams making an offer.

I think everyone likes the PAP signing and he wasn't the big name out there. We need more of that. If we get a good d-man and a complementary forward here I will be happy.

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05-15-2013, 05:26 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by the_fan View Post
Parise and Suter will never win the cup in Minnesota.

Wild will have to add a whole lot more to be a cup contender, but with the money invested in those two players, i doubt they can add anymore big pieces to take the next step. All they are is borderline playoff team.

Can't win with one line and one top d-man, that's what Wild have.

Parise-Koivu-Heatley line does pretty much all the scoring for the Wild.
I would argue they weren't going to win without them either. Especially with their drafting history.

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05-15-2013, 07:05 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by the_fan View Post

Can't win with one line and one top d-man, that's what Wild have.

Parise-Koivu-Heatley line does pretty much all the scoring for the Wild.
Playoff stats:

Parise 5GP 1G -7
Koivu 5GP 0Pts -6
Suter 5GP 0pts -5
Heatley - Injured


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05-15-2013, 07:18 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by GeoffL19 View Post
Playoff stats:

Parise 5GP 1G -7
Koivu 5GP 0Pts -6
Suter 5GP 0pts -5
Heatley - Injured

Yeah, but how many goals did Wild score in the entire series? I believe it was like 6 goals or something

Edit: Those stats prove my point too. All you have to do is shut down the 1st line of the Wild and you gonna beat them 9 out of 10 times.

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05-16-2013, 04:18 PM
  #583
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Originally Posted by Huis Clos View Post
And your perception of the Kroenkes pre-lockout when the Avs consistently had one of the highest payrolls in the league? Or the Smyth and Hannan contracts post-lockout? History shows they are willing to be spenders more than it shows they aren't willing.
That was nearly a decade ago. Sure, they got burned on some free agent signings, but that doesn't mean closing the wallet completely is the right answer. ALL option should be on the table.

It DOES appear the organization is reconsidering all that after looking at their ticket sales last year. But they really were starting to look like an organization that was little more than an investment for the Kroenke empire. A lot of people felt that way, and that is why I think a lot of people demoted themselves to more "casual fans" over the last few years. They used to be one of the hottest things going in town when the Kroenkes first bought them.

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05-16-2013, 04:24 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by Thrawn View Post
Guess if we're gonna feed off the bottom, may as well do it cheaply, right?

Just saying, after 4 years, it starts to look more about being "cheap" than the fear of overpaying. 4 years with that philosophy, and we were the second worst team in the league. I'm not saying we open the wallet and sign every free agent out there ala the Rangers, but there is a perception out there that the Kroenkes aren't really trying with the Avs, and are using their money elsewhere in their sporting empire. Gettign harder to dismiss that as we are approaching the half a decade mark with that philosophy.
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Originally Posted by kento19 View Post
Yeah, by the best team in the NHL. The Avalanche are in a better position looking forward than the Wild were before those two big signings. Imagine if Colorado added two players similar to Parise and Suter to their team. Imagine our team with those two guys signed this offseason if they were availible

Parise Duchene PAP
Landy ROR Downie
Mcginn Staz Sgarbo/Jones
Mcleod Mitchell Bordy

Suter EJ
Hejda Seth
Wilson Barrie/Elliott

Varly

I'm not saying we should go the UFA route. But i'm saying it's wrong to compare our team to the Wild and their success from taking that route.
And in a year (or two? Can't remember), when we need to re-sign our young guys, we would then be at a cap crunch.

Edit: And there's no point penciling in Jones if we had signed Parise/Suter as the pick would most likely be a little bit worse.

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05-16-2013, 04:56 PM
  #585
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We wouldn't have PAP if we got Parise. Sure Parise and Suter would've been sweet, but PAP and Seth is not a bad alternative.

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05-16-2013, 05:09 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
We wouldn't have PAP if we got Parise. Sure Parise and Suter would've been sweet, but PAP and Seth is not a bad alternative.
Parise+Suter+playoffs or PAP+Seth(who might be EJ 2.0 or worse)+ a miserable year? The answer should be easy.

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05-16-2013, 05:13 PM
  #587
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I hope Seth is half as good as you guys say he is.

I'm trying to figure out if all the buzz is because he's actually that good, or you're just that desperate.

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05-16-2013, 05:15 PM
  #588
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Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
I hope Seth is half as good as you guys say he is.

I'm trying to figure out if all the buzz is because he's actually that good, or you're just that desperate.
Somewhere in the middle.

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05-16-2013, 05:23 PM
  #589
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Originally Posted by MagicianHishon View Post
Parise+Suter+playoffs or PAP+Seth(who might be EJ 2.0 or worse)+ a miserable year? The answer should be easy.
Really? Are we starting the Jones is a bust early this go round?

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05-16-2013, 05:32 PM
  #590
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
Really? Are we starting the Jones is a bust early this go round?
We can all agree Landeskog is a bust.

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05-16-2013, 05:35 PM
  #591
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Originally Posted by the_fan View Post
We can all agree Landeskog is a bust.
At one point or another every draft pick this team has ever made has been a bust. Yet the Avs consistently put a huge amount of their picks in the NHL, top 5 in the league probably.

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05-16-2013, 05:40 PM
  #592
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Really? Are we starting the Jones is a bust early this go round?
When did I say bust?

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05-16-2013, 05:42 PM
  #593
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
Really? Are we starting the Jones is a bust early this go round?
I think that's missing the point, he's simply saying that two elite known quantities + playoffs are preferable as a fan to a horrible year and an unknown prospect.

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05-16-2013, 05:44 PM
  #594
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Originally Posted by MagicianHishon View Post
When did I say bust?
You implied that he very well could be with: 'might be EJ 2.0 or worse' that is like saying MacKinnon is Turris 2.0 or worse or... Drouin is Zhederev 2.0 or worse.

As a projection Jones looks to have all the skills and hockey sense required to be an elite #1D in time.

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05-16-2013, 05:46 PM
  #595
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
I think that's missing the point, he's simply saying that two elite known quantities + playoffs are preferable as a fan to a horrible year and an unknown prospect.
You nailed it bud.
Quote:
Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
You implied that he very well could be with: 'might be EJ 2.0 or worse' that is like saying MacKinnon is Turris 2.0 or worse or... Drouin is Zhederev 2.0 or worse.

As a projection Jones looks to have all the skills and hockey sense required to be an elite #1D in time.
The key word there being MIGHT be.

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05-16-2013, 05:47 PM
  #596
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I think that's missing the point, he's simply saying that two elite known quantities + playoffs are preferable as a fan to a horrible year and an unknown prospect.
I understand what is being said. You could just as easily say that Seth Jones could be better than Suter (not saying he will be, but the talent is there) and that could tip the scales in a different direction.

It just is a apples-to-oranges comparison. Nobody exactly knows how Jones will turn out, and nobody can say that Suter or Parise don't start having huge injury issues soon because of their age.


Last edited by henchman24: 05-16-2013 at 05:53 PM.
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05-16-2013, 05:48 PM
  #597
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
You implied that he very well could be with: 'might be EJ 2.0 or worse' that is like saying MacKinnon is Turris 2.0 or worse or... Drouin is Zhederev 2.0 or worse.

As a projection Jones looks to have all the skills and hockey sense required to be an elite #1D in time.
Yeah thats fine but who wants to wait 5 years for that when you could have an elite dman in his prime? I'm happy to have Jones as a consolation to this season but I would much rather have rather brought in two elite players and made the playoffs. It's kind of a moot point since we are where we are but I don't see the point in disparaging the Wild for their moves. They still have one of the best prospect pools in the league and have a very bright future.

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05-16-2013, 05:49 PM
  #598
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Originally Posted by MagicianHishon View Post
The key word there being MIGHT be.
But if you use another projection you could have something that favors the Avs. IMO there isn't a huge difference between PAP + 3+m cap space and Parise... With Duchene, I think I would rather actually have PAP as he is a perfect fit. Parise would fit well with Stastny though.

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05-16-2013, 05:56 PM
  #599
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
I understand what is being said. You could just as easily say that Seth Jones could be better than Suter (not saying he will be, but the talent is there) and that could tip the scales in a different direction.

It just is a apples-to-oranges comparison. Nobody exactly knows how Jones will turn out, and nobody can say that Suter or Parise don't start having huge injury issues soon because of their age.
How do we know Jones won't get hit by a bus tomorrow morning or right after the avs draft him? We can play this hypothetical game for ever. I'd rather have a season with playoffs plus 2 genuine superstars than a top line winger and a mystery box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
But if you use another projection you could have something that favors the Avs. IMO there isn't a huge difference between PAP + 3+m cap space and Parise... With Duchene, I think I would rather actually have PAP as he is a perfect fit. Parise would fit well with Stastny though.
Parise+Duchene would be money they both play well down low behind the net. We've seen Parise with Stastny they weren't anything special.

Also would good is cap space if you're not spending it. I'd rather have Parise at 7 million than PAP.

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05-16-2013, 06:37 PM
  #600
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Originally Posted by MagicianHishon View Post
Parise+Duchene would be money they both play well down low behind the net. We've seen Parise with Stastny they weren't anything special.

Also would good is cap space if you're not spending it. I'd rather have Parise at 7 million than PAP.
Doesn't really matter what you like though does it. Suter and Parise chose Minnesota over others for reasons other than just money. There is also absolutely no guarantee that the Avs make the playoffs with those two, just like Seth Jones is no guarantee to become a superstar. We're all working in hypotheticals right now. Just because you choose to believe that the team would be better off because of *situation A* than *situation B* does not make your argument more valid.

The Minnesota situation could easily play out where Suter and Parise are seen are too great a weight for one team to hold in the salary cap era, and they'll either be forced to trade them or live with the consequences of their hasty FA action. Where they'll only become disliked by fans, not for their effort or skill but because they cannot keep up with the expectations of their contracts (Which many players signing long term deals have already, historically gone through). Meanwhile Seth Jones is exactly like what all the scouts said he was and dominates at a fraction of the cost of either of Suter/Parise and still has 4 or 5 years of solid enough cap space to bring in a performer in the future. I see that being the likely outcome of Minnesota's situation. Jone's career is up to him and how he is handled as a player, formatively, and during that time financial constraints will not be an issue concerning him, but could harbour a great relationship with the team and decide to stay on for many years at less than what a similar player could get on the open market. I mean... just look at those Parise/Suter deals!!

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