So Mike doesn't think Holik should be on the list...and defiinately not Savard. I can see your point about Savard. Who would want a player who has 39 points in 28 games. The hightest point per game average in the league. Who creates more offensive opportunities than any player in the league. He's playing with Kozlov and Maceachern(spelling), not the greatest offensive linemates in the league. I don't know how many times Savard has set up Shaun with a wide open net, and he hasn't scored on any of them. Holik can add his big frame as his asset. No passion, no offense, ok defense. Yet another cave-man-like thinker. Size over talent, creativity and skill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Quite right, Mike. While I do not think Holik should be on the list, I do believe that a guy like Holik is a LOT more valuable when April comes around than Marc Savard (no offense to Marc).
Not to say the post-season is everything, but it is still a factor for sure.
Right Wing: (note: I removed Dany Heatley, since I'm unsure how he'll come back and play)
Todd Bertuzzi
Jerome Iginla
Marian Hossa
Zigmund Palffy
Milan Hejduk
Jaromir Jagr
Mark Recchi
Daniel Alfredsson
Bill Guerin
Alexander Mogilny
Martin St.Louis
Hejduk and Hossa better than Jagr??
Recchi better than Alfie?
So Mike doesn't think Holik should be on the list...and defiinately not Savard. I can see your point about Savard. Who would want a player who has 39 points in 28 games. The hightest point per game average in the league. Who creates more offensive opportunities than any player in the league. He's playing with Kozlov and Maceachern(spelling), not the greatest offensive linemates in the league. I don't know how many times Savard has set up Shaun with a wide open net, and he hasn't scored on any of them. Holik can add his big frame as his asset. No passion, no offense, ok defense. Yet another cave-man-like thinker. Size over talent, creativity and skill.
Size is low on what I look for in a player. Please don't make presumptions like that. It degrades conversation quickly.
I like what Savard's done this year. He's been an offensive threat and isn't riding anyone's coattails. But I wouldn't feel comfortable building a team around him right now, whereas I'm confident in Holik's abilities. He's a proven playoff performer who's consistent in racking up 40-50+ points each year while shutting down the opposition. He may have had some tough stretches in New York, but he's a winner and is proven.
If I'm building a team from scratch, that's what I'll look for. Holik's history, and capabilities right now outweigh Savard's for me in terms of building a new team. That's not to say Holik's more talented, or that Savard won't be better in the long run. I made my list as though I was building a new team for one season for a shot at the Cup, not for the long haul.
I also didn't consider players like Lecavalier, Koivu, Richards, or Allison, despite the fact that they're all far more talented than Madden or Holik. The reason being that they're all either unreliable in terms of clutch performance, or unreliable due to injury history.
If it's not size you like in Holik, what is it? Don't tell me he's a winner. I could have played on those Devil teams and won a cup. Plus, that was then, this is now. What has he done lately? I'm not saying build a team around Savard, I'm saying why does Marc get so little respect for what he's done this year.QUOTE=Mike8]Size is low on what I look for in a player. Please don't make presumptions like that. It degrades conversation quickly.
I like what Savard's done this year. He's been an offensive threat and isn't riding anyone's coattails. But I wouldn't feel comfortable building a team around him right now, whereas I'm confident in Holik's abilities. He's a proven playoff performer who's consistent in racking up 40-50+ points each year while shutting down the opposition. He may have had some tough stretches in New York, but he's a winner and is proven.
If I'm building a team from scratch, that's what I'll look for. Holik's history, and capabilities right now outweigh Savard's for me in terms of building a new team. That's not to say Holik's more talented, or that Savard won't be better in the long run. I made my list as though I was building a new team for one season for a shot at the Cup, not for the long haul.
I also didn't consider players like Lecavalier, Koivu, Richards, or Allison, despite the fact that they're all far more talented than Madden or Holik. The reason being that they're all either unreliable in terms of clutch performance, or unreliable due to injury history.[/QUOTE]
OFFENSIVELY-MINDED DEFENSEMEN
01 - Nicklas Lidstrom
02 - Sergei Gonchar
03 - Rob Blake
04 - Ed Jovanovski
04 - Sergei Zubov
04 - Al MacInnis
05 - Scott Neidermayer
06 - Brian Leetch
07 - Scott Niedermayer
08 - Kim Johnsson
09 - Roman Hamrlik
10 - Tomas Kaberle
DEFENSIVE AWARE DEFENSEMEN
01 - Chris Pronger
02 - Scott Stevens
03 - Derian Hatcher
04 - Adam Foote
05 - Mattias Ohlund
06 - Wade Redden
07 - Adrian Aucoin
08 - Zdeno Chara
09 - Jason Smith
10 - Robyn Reghr
CENTERS
01 - Mario Lemieux
02 - Peter Forsberg
03 - Joe Thornton
04 - Sergei Federov
05 - Mats Sundin
06 - Joe Sakic
07 - Pavol Demitra
08 - Mike Modano
09 - Robert Lang
10 - John Madden
LEFT WINGERS
01 - Markus Naslund
02 - Ilya Kovalchuk
03 - Keith Tkachuk
04 - Paul Kariya
05 - Alex Tanguay
06 - Patrik Elias
07 - Sergei Samsonov
08 - Richard Zednik
09 - Ryan Smyth
10 - Zigmund Palffy
RIGHT WINGERS
01 - Jaromir Jagr
02 - Todd Bertuzzi
03 - Marian Hossa
04 - Bill Guerin
05 - Milan Hejduk
06 - Jarome Igilna
07 - Jere Lehtinen
08 - Marian Gaborik
09 - Alexander Mogilny
10 - Daniel Alfredsson
GOALIES
01 - Martin Brodeur
02 - Jose Theodore
03 - Marty Turco
04 - Ed Belfour
05 - Nik Khabibulin
06 - Roberto Luongo
07 - Patrick Lalime
08 - Dan Cloutier
09 - Marc-Andre Fleury
10 - Mike Dunham
Theodore best goaltender hahaha
Koivu is not a top 10 center, he is injured most of the time so I fail to ee how he could be there. And you ranked him lower than Thorton.
Kovalev hasn't done much in New York
Bondra is too old now
These can't be in order are they for if they are you are a bigger moron than I originally gave you credit for.
Duhh...thats why it said in no order at the very top of his post. Where is the rolleyes emoticon when you need it?
I'm sure I'll leave off a name or two that I would have wanted to put on. Also, these are in no particular order, other than the bottom 2 or 3 probably being lower on my list than the top 5 or 6 since the latter came to mind first. Lemieux and MacInnis are omitted because I'm not sure if they will play again, and if they do if they will play any substantial amount of games.
Goaltenders:
Martin Brodeur
Ed Belfour
Nikolai Khabibulin
Dominik Hasek
Marty Turco
Tomas Vokoun
Patrick Lalime
Jean-Sebastien Giguere
Roman Cechmanek
Jose Theodore
Defensemen:
Niklas Lidstrom
Chris Pronger
Rob Blake
Derian Hatcher
Sergei Gonchar
Adam Foote
Scott Niedermayer
Sergei Zubov
Mattias Ohlund
Ed Jovanovski
Centers:
Peter Forsberg
Sergei Fedorov
Mike Modano
Joe Sakic
Mats Sundin
Joe Thornton
Doug Weight
Pavol Demitra
Pavel Datsyuk
John Madden
Left Wingers:
Ilya Kovalchuk
Marcus Naslund
Keith Tkachuk
Ladislav Nagy
Jere Lehtinen
Paul Kariya
Patrick Elias
Alex Tanguay
Brendan Shanahan
Vyacheslav Kozlov
Right Wingers:
Zigmund Palffy
Jaromir Jagr
Jarome Iginla
Milan Hedjuk
Todd Bertuzzi
Brett Hull
Marian Hossa
Dany Heatley
Daniel Alfredsson
Alexander Mogilny
Of the 11 People who have actually placed (meaning they actually wrote out their top 10)their opinion on 10 players in each category..
If you noticed the TOP Wingers have 10 instead of 11, and that's because someone didn't seperate Left/Right Wingers so he listed 12 left wingers and 8 right wingers and also doubled on 1 person... Centers
Forsberg 11
Fedorov 11
Sakic 11
Thornton 10
Modano 10
Sundin 10
Weight 9
Demitra 8
Madden 6
Datsyuk 4
Lemieux 4
Roenick 3
Lang 2
Peca 2
Yashin 2
Koivu
Francis
Rucchin
Savard
Yzerman
Holik
Allison Left Wingers
Kovalchuk 10
Tkachuk 10
Kariya 10
Naslund 10
Elias 9
Tanguay 7
Smyth 6
Nagy 5
Shanahan 5
Lehtinen 5
Samsonov 4
Nash 4
Kozlov 2
Straka 2
Sturm
Nolan
Leclair
Whitney
Gagne
Morrow
Left
Satan
Doan
Zednik
LEFT WINGERS
01 - Markus Naslund
02 - Ilya Kovalchuk
03 - Keith Tkachuk
04 - Paul Kariya
05 - Alex Tanguay
06 - Patrik Elias
07 - Sergei Samsonov
08 - Richard Zednik
09 - Ryan Smyth
10 - Zigmund Palffy
1) Palffy has never played left wing in his life
2) How can you list Kariya, Tanguay, Elias, Samsonov, Zednik, Smth over Palffy?
If it's not size you like in Holik, what is it? Don't tell me he's a winner. I could have played on those Devil teams and won a cup. Plus, that was then, this is now. What has he done lately? I'm not saying build a team around Savard, I'm saying why does Marc get so little respect for what he's done this year.
Holik is a winner. He was among the three or four most valuable players over his last 5-6 years with NJ, and was their best forward through that time in the playoffs IMO.
You may not be saying 'build a team around Savard', but that's what my list reflects. I chose the top 10 centers I'd want to build a team around for one season. In my opinion, that's the right method in deciding what the top 10 centers in the league are.
Savard's getting respect. If the question were: what are the top 10 centers so far this season? Then Savard would get more respect and be mentioned in more top ten lists. But that's not what the question was.
You are right about 1 thing. "He WAS among the three or four most valuable players...". Past tense. You would like to build your team around an over the hill 8.5 million dollar player, who will be life and death to get 20 goals this year? I know points aren't everything, but if you're paying over 8 mill. a year, 30 to 40 goals is an absolute must.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
Holik is a winner. He was among the three or four most valuable players over his last 5-6 years with NJ, and was their best forward through that time in the playoffs IMO.
You may not be saying 'build a team around Savard', but that's what my list reflects. I chose the top 10 centers I'd want to build a team around for one season. In my opinion, that's the right method in deciding what the top 10 centers in the league are.
Savard's getting respect. If the question were: what are the top 10 centers so far this season? Then Savard would get more respect and be mentioned in more top ten lists. But that's not what the question was.
Holik is a winner. He was among the three or four most valuable players over his last 5-6 years with NJ, and was their best forward through that time in the playoffs IMO.
You may not be saying 'build a team around Savard', but that's what my list reflects. I chose the top 10 centers I'd want to build a team around for one season. In my opinion, that's the right method in deciding what the top 10 centers in the league are.
Savard's getting respect. If the question were: what are the top 10 centers so far this season? Then Savard would get more respect and be mentioned in more top ten lists. But that's not what the question was.
What's wrong with Linden? He's one of the best defensive players in hockey and is also arguably one of the top 10 playmakers. Bertuzzi is pretty good too but Linden has a lot more experience and plays a much better positional game...
Year GP G A Pts +/- PIM Shots Sh% GWG GTG SHG SHA PPG PPA
Year to date: 2003-04 39 8 11 19 -3 12 46 17.39 1 1 0 0 2 3
On Pace: 82 17 23 40 -6 25 97 17.39 2 2 0 0 4 6
I like Linden too but he isnt a great offensive player anymore
He hasn' t had an 80 point season since 1995-96.
he hasnt been above 50 points since!
He does have 797 career points and if he lasts another 5 yrs he will get 1000 nhl points.
You are right about 1 thing. "He WAS among the three or four most valuable players...". Past tense. You would like to build your team around an over the hill 8.5 million dollar player, who will be life and death to get 20 goals this year? I know points aren't everything, but if you're paying over 8 mill. a year, 30 to 40 goals is an absolute must.
I thought we covered the salary-deal a few times already. Not interested in covering it again. I have confidence in Holik's abilities, you clearly don't. We agree to disagree. Easy, aye? :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionHockey
Yet was replaced rather easily by Madden.
Didn't I put Madden in my top ten centers as well?
John Madden is WAYYYYYYYYYYY overated. He is a DEFENSIVE player with grit and all great intengibles, but he's nothing on offense! Guys like Forsberg, Sakic, Yzerman, Fedorov, Sundin, Modano, Thornton, Datsyuk (this year at-least) and even Koivu (a bit of homerism in there, but still...) bring EVERYTHING to the table. John Madden doesn't even diserve to be mentionned in the same sentence as those players. He doesn't even have 20 points! A NHL top 10 center with .50 ppg, bs! To be a top 10 guy you gotta have it elite offense, good to great defense
Damn, there is a lot of shutdown guys in the NHL and none of them are considered top 10, so why this guy who is far from great is? John Madden is the most overated player in the league.
John Madden is the kind of player who are currently killing hockey. I wish their was more Daniel Brière, Mike Ribeiro and other strictly o-minded players and no more foul like Madden. He is valuable of course, but he is so overated, it's annoying. IMO he's not even the best center of his club, Gomez is better on offense and can play defense pretty well.
In my opinion Madden isn't even in the top 30 according to center and I'll name at-least 30 centers that are better than him according to me! No particular order.
