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Van (Bieksa) - TB (Purcell)

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Old
05-16-2013, 07:29 AM
  #26
nhljohnson
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A very reasonable proposal from the OP. Well done.

That Purcell got a 3-year deal for $4.5m per last off-season should tell you what TB brass thinks about him. Purcell is only expendable because TB has a glut of NHL-ready or nearly-ready forward talent (Brown, Connolly, Johnson, Killorn, Palat, Panik) who have already seen big league ice as well as high-end prospects already or set to enter the pro ranks (Kucherov, Namestnikov, Richard) plus the possibility of adding another with the 2013 3rd overall draft pick. There's a logjam moving forward that will only be relieved by either vet players retire or are traded or prospects being shipped off or some combination of the two. That said, Purcell won't be moved unless there is an opportunity to address the team's position of weakness moving forward: defense.

As a defenseman capable of playing top-4 minutes, especially to pair alongside Carle, Bieksa certainly fits that need. He may not be the ideal acquisition, but I could see Yzerman being intrigued if he and Purcell were the basis for a trade.


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05-16-2013, 09:04 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by nhljohnson View Post
A very reasonable proposal from the OP. Well done.

That Purcell got a 3-year deal for $4.5m per last off-season should tell you what TB brass thinks about him. Purcell is only expendable because TB has a glut of NHL-ready or nearly-ready forward talent (Brown, Connolly, Johnson, Killorn, Palat, Panik) who have already seen big league ice as well as high-end prospects already or set to enter the pro ranks (Kucherov, Namestnikov, Richard) plus the possibility of adding another with the 2013 3rd overall draft pick. There's a logjam moving forward that will only be relieved by either vet players retire or are traded or prospects being shipped off or some combination of the two. That said, Purcell won't be moved unless there is an opportunity to address the team's position of weakness moving forward: defense.

As a defenseman capable of playing top-4 minutes, especially to pair alongside Carle, Bieksa certainly fits that need. He may not be the ideal acquisition, but I could see Yzerman being intrigued if he and Purcell were the basis for a trade.
Nail on the head. Teddy is super talented and I would hate to lose him, but we have a ton of depth at forward and not much depth at d, and trading him out of conference is a bonus. I'd do it.

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05-16-2013, 09:39 AM
  #28
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As much as Bieksa means to the core in Vancouver, this is a trade you have to make. Purcell is the type of winger who will succedd with Kesler IMO. Though despite both teams liking the proposal I don't see Bieksa waiving his NMC.

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05-16-2013, 12:07 PM
  #29
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Done.

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05-16-2013, 12:28 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by King Canuck View Post
As much as Bieksa means to the core in Vancouver, this is a trade you have to make. Purcell is the type of winger who will succedd with Kesler IMO. Though despite both teams liking the proposal I don't see Bieksa waiving his NMC.

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05-16-2013, 01:17 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
Not interested in Purcell for Bieksa...the only reason to trade Bieksa is to shed salary...the guy plays 25 minutes a night and provides both offense and toughness from the RD slot.

Connolly + 2015 1st for Bieksa

Note: used a 2015 1st which I figure is about equivalent to a 2013 2nd as I assume you want all your high picks this year.
Is that a joke?

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05-16-2013, 01:55 PM
  #32
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Is that a joke?
No he forget to add Edler and their first in 2015.

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05-16-2013, 02:53 PM
  #33
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What young talent? And does that young talent actually do anything for the Canucks roster?

My "sell job" is less about the unavailability of young talent (despite the truth in that) and more about the Canucks not needing more shots in the dark to fix the second line. It is an immediate need. Purcell addresses that. A quality 2nd line forward for a quality top 4 D seems like a fair swap to me as long as the teams have depth from where they are dealing.
I never said the value wasn't fair, although I think we could get a bit more for Bieksa, just that I don't like the form of the return. If we couldn't get young talent, which you seem confident we couldn't, I'd rather keep him.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree that Purcell is what the Canucks need.

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05-16-2013, 03:54 PM
  #34
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How about Purcell, Connolly, 2nd for Edler?

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05-16-2013, 04:08 PM
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How about Purcell, Connolly, 2nd for Edler?
Too much for us to give up but I like the originality here.

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05-16-2013, 05:40 PM
  #36
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Too much for us to give up but I like the originality here.
I guess. All of those pieces are very expendable to Tampa Bay. In return for those expendable pieces, you get back a top pairing defenseman just entering his prime who is signed at a discount rate for the next 5 seasons. I could see both teams benefiting greatly by such a trade.

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05-16-2013, 06:10 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
I guess. All of those pieces are very expendable to Tampa Bay. In return for those expendable pieces, you get back a top pairing defenseman just entering his prime who is signed at a discount rate for the next 5 seasons. I could see both teams benefiting greatly by such a trade.
That is exactly why I consider it, but still going to be really hard to give up two top 6 forwards. I much prefer this to some of the other deals I've seen though, kudos for suggesting it.

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05-16-2013, 06:25 PM
  #38
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Bieksa is honestly just to big of a piece to this organization (on so many levels).
- Drafted here
- Despite all the trade rumors that surrounded him
- His work with mind check
- Hes one of the key faces of the franchise/fan favorite.

I understand anyone can be traded... but hes really one of those "community guys" that management loves (see Malhotra).

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05-16-2013, 06:48 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
I guess. All of those pieces are very expendable to Tampa Bay. In return for those expendable pieces, you get back a top pairing defenseman just entering his prime who is signed at a discount rate for the next 5 seasons. I could see both teams benefiting greatly by such a trade.
I'd say individually they're expendable because of redundancy... together and we're out two of our most talented wingers.

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05-16-2013, 07:34 PM
  #40
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I never said the value wasn't fair, although I think we could get a bit more for Bieksa, just that I don't like the form of the return. If we couldn't get young talent, which you seem confident we couldn't, I'd rather keep him.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree that Purcell is what the Canucks need.
Its not that I think there wouldn't be offers for youth, its that I don't think they would be worthwhile. Teams tend to be reticent to move young guys whose value isn't primarily based in potential and that kind of risk doesn't make sense for the Canucks.

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05-16-2013, 07:56 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
Bieksa is honestly just to big of a piece to this organization (on so many levels).
- Drafted here
- Despite all the trade rumors that surrounded him
- His work with mind check
- Hes one of the key faces of the franchise/fan favorite.

I understand anyone can be traded... but hes really one of those "community guys" that management loves (see Malhotra).
It's because of mindsets like this why the franchise has never been a winner

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05-16-2013, 09:33 PM
  #42
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It's because of mindsets like this why the franchise has never been a winner
How about this then: he's our only established top 4 defenseman that is capable of playing heavy minutes on the right side. I think that pretty much says it. If someone is moved, it will be Edler. Not because he's worse than Edler, but because we have a ton of depth on the left side, he has more value, and he doesn't have a NTC.

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05-16-2013, 09:52 PM
  #43
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How about this then: he's our only established top 4 defenseman that is capable of playing heavy minutes on the right side. I think that pretty much says it. If someone is moved, it will be Edler. Not because he's worse than Edler, but because we have a ton of depth on the left side, he has more value, and he doesn't have a NTC.
The team has evident leadership issues and the one of the roots of the problem is Bieksa. He has worn an A on his sweater for years and clearly the team needs a shake up not only on the ice but in the locker room too.

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05-16-2013, 10:22 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
How about this then: he's our only established top 4 defenseman that is capable of playing heavy minutes on the right side. I think that pretty much says it. If someone is moved, it will be Edler. Not because he's worse than Edler, but because we have a ton of depth on the left side, he has more value, and he doesn't have a NTC.
Garrison fits that description too, he's just not a natural righty.

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05-17-2013, 04:05 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
Is that a joke?
What role would Bieksa play on your team?

(here's a hint, Salo plays 1st pair on your team...Bieksa and him have been on the same team for a long time and Bieksa has been ahead of Salo for years).

A 1st + top prospect is a minimum asking price for a guy that plays 23+ minutes a night, plays a position of need for everyone (RHD), has put up over 40 points, has played shutdown minutes effectively, and has demonstrated toughness and an ability to fight, and is signed to a reasonable salary for multiple years.

I can understand if you have no interest in trading for an upgrade on D but it seems like other fans of your team want to address your defenseman situation.

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Everyone wants young cheap talent. No one wants to give it up. Its a fantasy that it can be acquired for a trade price that isn't overly exorbitant.
Wouldn't you say the same thing about a big minute RHD, who can put up 40 points while playing shutdown minutes, and can step up physically to protect teammates?

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He plays 22-23 minutes a night. The reason to trade him is to acquire a top 6 winger with talent that fits the other talent we have.
I don't like Purcell for Bieksa. The value is not there IMO...I don't like Purcell for $4.5M and I think a lot of Tampa fans feel the same way.

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Originally Posted by ohnoeszz View Post
No team drafting top 3 is trading a first the next year and it doesn't make sense for the Canucks to add Connolly when they have Jensen/Gaunce ready for the NHL in the next year or two with Kassian already improving at the NHL level. Their need is a bonafide proven offensive talent to play with Kesler while the Sedin's cup window is still open.
If you can't see the difference between Connolly and Jensen/Gaunce, you need to look harder.

Jensen's two-way game certainly isn't NHL ready. Gaunce's skating isn't where it needs to be (yet). Connolly represents a significant upgrade on those guys.

Connolly also brings a completely different game from Kassian. The kid is a snipe show.

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The Canucks don't have the cap space for a high-priced UFA signing and there is a very small market of quality UFA players that would fill the Canuck's needs. Other teams with more money will be bidding for them.
Have you noted Purcell's cap hit ($4.5M). That is exactly enough money to sign a player of his calibur.

That's the main reason I don't like the trade, Purcell is not a great value at his cap hit while Bieksa is IMO.

In regards to the rest of your post, I do agree that Purcell would be a good fit with Kesler...I just don't think he's as valuable as Bieksa (in terms of player value or in cap space).

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05-17-2013, 04:41 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
A 1st + top prospect is a minimum asking price for a guy that plays 23+ minutes a night, plays a position of need for everyone (RHD), has put up over 40 points, has played shutdown minutes effectively, and has demonstrated toughness and an ability to fight, and is signed to a reasonable salary for multiple years.
I think that is sugar-coating Bieksa a bit. He has his drawbacks: penalty prone, makes very bad turnovers/decisions at times, can get carried away overplaying his physicality at the cost of positioning.... He only played shutdown minutes with Hamhuis - a guy who is fantastic reading the play defensively and can cover for a lot of mistakes. In a vacuum all those things are true, but that viewpoint completely overlooks his downside.

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Wouldn't you say the same thing about a big minute RHD, who can put up 40 points while playing shutdown minutes, and can step up physically to protect teammates?
Its always depending on the player. Those are a lot of qualifiers that only point out his proficiencies. Additionally, for guys like Bieksa who have been in the league for years and years, every team has a good handle of his capabilities. Younger players have a wider range of viewpoints on their abilities, particularly their potential. No one wants to give up a potential star. With Bieksa and the like, there is no risk of that... so in short, no, I don't think its the same.

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I don't like Purcell for Bieksa. The value is not there IMO...I don't like Purcell for $4.5M and I think a lot of Tampa fans feel the same way.
I like Burrows at 4.5 too. I think its a fair deal for both players. They are quality 1st/2nd liners and as long as the particular skills of the player are needed, the contract is good.

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If you can't see the difference between Connolly and Jensen/Gaunce, you need to look harder.

Jensen's two-way game certainly isn't NHL ready. Gaunce's skating isn't where it needs to be (yet). Connolly represents a significant upgrade on those guys.

Connolly also brings a completely different game from Kassian. The kid is a snipe show.
I like Connolly's ability to snipe. I like Jensen's game a lot more and I disagree that his two-way game isn't ready - I would actually consider it one of his greatest strengths. I think he just needs to adjust his offensive game to NHL rinks and defenses, but he has all the talent to be a fantastic all-around player in the Erikkson type of mould.

I also disagree on Gaunce's skating. That was the scouting report, but from watching him he looks like a very good skater with underrated speed.

It's not that I don't like Connolly but I think overstocking in NHL ready wingers leaves one of them out of the loop and is a poor use of assets.

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05-17-2013, 04:57 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by ohnoeszz View Post
I think that is sugar-coating Bieksa a bit. He has his drawbacks: penalty prone, makes very bad turnovers/decisions at times, can get carried away overplaying his physicality at the cost of positioning.... He only played shutdown minutes with Hamhuis - a guy who is fantastic reading the play defensively and can cover for a lot of mistakes. In a vacuum all those things are true, but that viewpoint completely overlooks his downside.

Its always depending on the player. Those are a lot of qualifiers that only point out his proficiencies. Additionally, for guys like Bieksa who have been in the league for years and years, every team has a good handle of his capabilities. Younger players have a wider range of viewpoints on their abilities, particularly their potential. No one wants to give up a potential star. With Bieksa and the like, there is no risk of that... so in short, no, I don't think its the same.
No player is perfect. I would suggest that if Bieksa was available you would see a ton of teams rushing to get him and willing to trade serious value for him...do you disagree?

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I like Burrows at 4.5 too. I think its a fair deal for both players. They are quality 1st/2nd liners and as long as the particular skills of the player are needed, the contract is good.
I don't like Burrows at $4.5M...so we seem to value things differently. I think at the point where you are paying a guy $4.5M, you may as well get a guy that can carry the play for $1.5M more ($6M).

Guys like Burrows and Percell are good support players but if they were the main offensive threat on a line, your line isn't going to be very productive IMO whereas if you put a guy like Ribeiro with two decent players, you have a reasonable scoring line.

The rest on the prospects we are okay on...we just disagree on how NHL ready Gaunce and Jensen are.

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05-17-2013, 05:08 AM
  #48
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Bieksa/Luongo for Lecavalier/Purcell

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05-17-2013, 06:15 AM
  #49
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No player is perfect. I would suggest that if Bieksa was available you would see a ton of teams rushing to get him and willing to trade serious value for him...do you disagree?
I think a lot of teams would make offers for him but I don't really know what kind of value those offers would have. Value-wise I think it is possible to get more than Purcell - not a lot more, but a bit. I would of course like to have all options explored, but I view Purcell as such a good fit for Vancouver's needs that it would be tough for another team to match what I think Purcell would bring to Vancouver.


Quote:
I don't like Burrows at $4.5M...so we seem to value things differently. I think at the point where you are paying a guy $4.5M, you may as well get a guy that can carry the play for $1.5M more ($6M).

Guys like Burrows and Percell are good support players but if they were the main offensive threat on a line, your line isn't going to be very productive IMO whereas if you put a guy like Ribeiro with two decent players, you have a reasonable scoring line.
I agree in principle but there is such a limited amount of guys worth that 6 million that I think you have to be open to building a quality top 6 in other ways.

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The rest on the prospects we are okay on...we just disagree on how NHL ready Gaunce and Jensen are.
Understandable. I'm very high on both... I think Gaunce may take another year or two (hard to project guys from lesser leagues in the short term) but Jensen is ready to go.


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05-17-2013, 06:22 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Siludin View Post
Bieksa/Luongo for Lecavalier/Purcell
Yzerman has said he wants a younger goalie and has made two separate moves to get them. I thought it would have been a great move for them a year ago but that ship has sailed.

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