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Old
05-17-2013, 12:37 PM
  #651
LaGu
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Canadian National clubs for whatever reason are generally regarded with contempt in Sweden. I am stating that is part of the dynamic which contributed to the woeful disregard for an obviously seriously injured Canadian player writhing on the ice. That he is a Canadian player, playing in a game against Sweden, in Sweden, is part of that dynamic, it shouldn't be.

Again in NA when a man goes down seriously hurt that is always the primary focus of the crowd. Not jeering.

Of course this being a Canadian player down on the ice in serious pain meant the crowd didn't have to (in their minds) show immediate concern or compassion. Because thats the last thought that would be held out for a Canadian player in Sweden.


The conduct of the crowd revealed contempt.
You are generalizing a bit too much I think. Most fans have a love/hate relationship with Canada's national teams. We love to play them, but we hate the fact that we lose more than we win and that many times we're simply out-muscled (this was much more common in the old days). The "out-muscled" part of this equation sticks with people and by default I think many classify Canada as a team playing on the "limit of dirty" (in terms of physical play) and therefore, in a way, they expect that it will be the Swede on the ice instead of the Canadian. Does that make sense?

That said, I think the crowd would have reacted the exact same way if we were playing against Finland, Russia or USA.

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05-17-2013, 12:47 PM
  #652
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You are generalizing a bit too much I think. Most fans have a love/hate relationship with Canada's national teams. We love to play them, but we hate the fact that we lose more than we win and that many times we're simply out-muscled (this was much more common in the old days). The "out-muscled" part of this equation sticks with people and by default I think many classify Canada as a team playing on the "limit of dirty" (in terms of physical play) and therefore, in a way, they expect that it will be the Swede on the ice instead of the Canadian. Does that make sense?

That said, I think the crowd would have reacted the exact same way if we were playing against Finland, Russia or USA.
heh, we won't agree much on this one my friend.

I go way back to Father Bauer as coach of Team Canada and the histrionics is even generationally ingrained. Respect to father Bauer who was apparently possessed of more tolerance than I am.

http://www.hhof.com/htmlSpotlight/sp...eb198901.shtml

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05-17-2013, 12:58 PM
  #653
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Canadian National clubs for whatever reason are generally regarded with contempt in Sweden. I am stating that is part of the dynamic which contributed to the woeful disregard for an obviously seriously injured Canadian player writhing on the ice. That he is a Canadian player, playing in a game against Sweden, in Sweden, is part of that dynamic, it shouldn't be.

Again in NA when a man goes down seriously hurt that is always the primary focus of the crowd. Not jeering.

Of course this being a Canadian player down on the ice in serious pain meant the crowd didn't have to (in their minds) show immediate concern or compassion. Because thats the last thought that would be held out for a Canadian player in Sweden.


The conduct of the crowd revealed contempt.
Canada is by far the most respected national team when it comes to hockey in sweden. Yeah the whole "big bad Canada" idea still lives on but that's mainly out of respect and fear from getting manhandled by canadian teams through the years. And it's not like it doesn't go both ways with the whole idea of chicken swedes and soft euros.

Canada-Sweden games tend to be highly emotional, and will likely be even more so down the line since I believe we are the two nations with the strongest youth programs and best young players coming up, but don't mistake passion and a strong sense of us v them for contempt when it's really the other way around.
We love nothing more than beating the crap out of Canada and the reason for that is that you are the ones to beat. In the eighties you're part was played by soviet.

As of now you are the strongest hockey nation out there and since you love to overstate that fact ofc emotions are going to run extra high.

But contempt. No. Emotions and a difference in culture. Yes.

You should just hear the build up to the Sweden-Finland game. The finns aren't holding any punches and I'm loving it.

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05-17-2013, 01:12 PM
  #654
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heh, we won't agree much on this one my friend.

I go way back to Father Bauer as coach of Team Canada and the histrionics is even generationally ingrained. Respect to father Bauer who was apparently possessed of more tolerance than I am.

http://www.hhof.com/htmlSpotlight/sp...eb198901.shtml
Ha, well played!

However, that doesn't really go against what I wrote except for the definition of "old days" .

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05-17-2013, 01:15 PM
  #655
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Canada is by far the most respected national team when it comes to hockey in sweden. Yeah the whole "big bad Canada" idea still lives on but that's mainly out of respect and fear from getting manhandled by canadian teams through the years. And it's not like it doesn't go both ways with the whole idea of chicken swedes and soft euros.

Canada-Sweden games tend to be highly emotional, and will likely be even more so down the line since I believe we are the two nations with the strongest youth programs and best young players coming up, but don't mistake passion and a strong sense of us v them for contempt when it's really the other way around.
We love nothing more than beating the crap out of Canada and the reason for that is that you are the ones to beat. In the eighties you're part was played by soviet.

As of now you are the strongest hockey nation out there and since you love to overstate that fact ofc emotions are going to run extra high.

But contempt. No. Emotions and a difference in culture. Yes.

You should just hear the build up to the Sweden-Finland game. The finns aren't holding any punches and I'm loving it.


Although in all honesty I am not one tenth as invested in the build up to the Sweden Finland game as I was for the Sweden Canada game...

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05-17-2013, 01:19 PM
  #656
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heh, we won't agree much on this one my friend.

I go way back to Father Bauer as coach of Team Canada and the histrionics is even generationally ingrained. Respect to father Bauer who was apparently possessed of more tolerance than I am.

http://www.hhof.com/htmlSpotlight/sp...eb198901.shtml
I think most of any possible contempt from Swedes towards canadian national teams stems mostly from the late seventies when some canadian players played like goons in the world championships. Not that these players were considered goons in the NHL at this point.
The 1977 WC springs to mind here when the canadian players took some serious liberties.
Also some other cases like a 18 year old Lindros running Ulf Samuelsson against the boards in the world cup, Lindros elbow hit in the head on Nylander and Brind'Amour running Forsberg into the boards might have something to do with it.
I also dont think Don Cherry and his opinions on Sweden and swedish players has been particularly popular.

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05-17-2013, 01:20 PM
  #657
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Although in all honesty I am not one tenth as invested in the build up to the Sweden Finland game as I was for the Sweden Canada game...
Me neither, always prefer the Canada games, but I love watching my finnish friends being angry. Nothing more entertaining than an angry finn.

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05-17-2013, 01:39 PM
  #658
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I think most of any possible contempt from Swedes towards canadian national teams stems mostly from the late seventies when some canadian players played like goons in the world championships. Not that these players were considered goons in the NHL at this point.
The 1977 WC springs to mind here when the canadian players took some serious liberties.
Also some other cases like a 18 year old Lindros running Ulf Samuelsson against the boards in the world cup, Lindros elbow hit in the head on Nylander and Brind'Amour running Forsberg into the boards might have something to do with it.
I also dont think Don Cherry and his opinions on Sweden and swedish players has been particularly popular.
Nah, some of you aren't old enough. The Canadian National Team was despised by Swedes even in the 60's with Father Bauer being ever pacifist stopping his Canadian team from reacting to whats going on.

When Team Canada's head coach, a man of the clergy at that, is injured by a Swedish player throwing a broken stick at him(broken with a vicious crosscheck to a Team Canada players back) and hitting him in the head in the 1964 Olympics know that theres some history here. Think about that. As bad as you want to make out Canadian players when has a Canadian player injured an opponent coach? Most canadian players have heard about that episode as one of the most sickening things they'd ever seen.

Father Bauer used to talk about how for some reason Swedes couldn't stand the Canadian hockey players and how biased officiating and the IIHF was. This being long before the Broadstreet bullies.

A Canadian POV on this is of course going to be different. The average Canadian player doesn't have a high opinion of some swedish tactics either.

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05-17-2013, 01:56 PM
  #659
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I am not offended anymore, I had my morning coffee so I am back to being zen. I don't think I said that (if I did it was not intentional).

It was obviously a good call but home crowd fans will boo the refs for calling any penalty in a WC quarter final on home ice. Especially against a team like Canada were we kind of expect you to score on each PP.


By the way, if you do think that they were heckling Staal, what were they cheering for from 1:12 to about 1:25 in the video below (some in the crowd giving standing ovations)? Was it a coincidence that that was the time when Staal was helped off the ice? And why would they go back to booing after that, when Staal was no longer present on the ice?

They did cheer when he got up. But that doesn't cancel out the jeering while he was writhing on the ice.

They jeered Staal when he went down.
They cheered when he got up.
They boo'd the call afterwards.

The fact of the matter is, the crowd was giving it to Staal before the penalty was given. They couldn't know about the major penalty and the ejection before it was made. I honestly don't see how anyone could argue otherwise.

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05-17-2013, 02:04 PM
  #660
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They did cheer when he got up. But that doesn't cancel out the jeering while he was writhing on the ice.

They jeered Staal when he went down.
They cheered when he got up.
They boo'd the call afterwards.

The fact of the matter is, the crowd was giving it to Staal before the penalty was given. They couldn't know about the major penalty and the ejection before it was made. I honestly don't see how anyone could argue otherwise.
No they did not, it had nothing to do with Staal but I don't think anything I write will change your mind.

I am sorry you see it that way since it implies you really think the worst of people. I know more than a few Swedes, and I know several Swedes who were at this game, and whatever you may think about them I can honestly tell you that 99% are actually good people. I'll just leave it at that.

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05-17-2013, 02:08 PM
  #661
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No they did not, it had nothing to do with Staal but I don't think anything I write will change your mind.

I am sorry you see it that way since it implies you really think the worst of people. I know more than a few Swedes, and I know several Swedes who were at this game, and whatever you may think about them I can honestly tell you that 99% are actually good people. I'll just leave it at that.
Well that's just not true, and frankly it's a little insulting.

Anyways, I don't think anything either of us say, will change the others opinion. I think we should agree to disagree on this one.

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05-17-2013, 02:09 PM
  #662
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No they did not, it had nothing to do with Staal but I don't think anything I write will change your mind.

I am sorry you see it that way since it implies you really think the worst of people. I know more than a few Swedes, and I know several Swedes who were at this game, and whatever you may think about them I can honestly tell you that 99% are actually good people. I'll just leave it at that.
I thought all Swedes were Vikings.

Might have you guys mixed up with the dirty Norwegians.

How can a nation that gave us the Saab be considered respectful? Meatballs to that I say!

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05-17-2013, 02:16 PM
  #663
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Nah, some of you aren't old enough. The Canadian National Team was despised by Swedes even in the 60's with Father Bauer being ever pacifist stopping his Canadian team from reacting to whats going on.

When Team Canada's head coach, a man of the clergy at that, is injured by a Swedish player throwing a broken stick at him(broken with a vicious crosscheck to a Team Canada players back) and hitting him in the head in the 1964 Olympics know that theres some history here. Think about that. As bad as you want to make out Canadian players when has a Canadian player injured an opponent coach? Most canadian players have heard about that episode as one of the most sickening things they'd ever seen.

Father Bauer used to talk about how for some reason Swedes couldn't stand the Canadian hockey players and how biased officiating and the IIHF was. This being long before the Broadstreet bullies.

A Canadian POV on this is of course going to be different. The average Canadian player doesn't have a high opinion of some swedish tactics either.
Take my word for it, Swedish fans and/or opinions/reactions have nothing to do with what happened in -64. 99% of Swedes will tell you that Canada plays more physical than we do and have out-muscled us on many occasions.

We can start listing what Canada has done (see other posts) vs what Sweden has done (in -64) but it comes down to the fact that the game in NA is more physical than the game in Europe. Hits, fights, etc are punished differently in Europe (or are not allowed) which actually drives me crazy sometimes. But people in Europe expect Canada (and USA by the way) to be the bad boys.



OiledUp put the finger on it. We have the highest respect for Canada and love(/hate) to play against them. Emotions for us run high. From what I heard from Canadians they don't see us as the no 1 rival, but we definitely do.

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05-17-2013, 02:25 PM
  #664
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Well that's just not true, and frankly it's a little insulting.

Anyways, I don't think anything either of us say, will change the others opinion. I think we should agree to disagree on this one.
Fair enough, and I apologize for my post. I expressed myself very badly and it was not my intention to insult you.


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05-17-2013, 02:28 PM
  #665
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Take my word for it, Swedish fans and/or opinions/reactions have nothing to do with what happened in -64. 99% of Swedes will tell you that Canada plays more physical than we do and have out-muscled us on many occasions.

We can start listing what Canada has done (see other posts) vs what Sweden has done (in -64) but it comes down to the fact that the game in NA is more physical than the game in Europe. Hits, fights, etc are punished differently in Europe (or are not allowed) which actually drives me crazy sometimes. But people in Europe expect Canada (and USA by the way) to be the bad boys.



OiledUp put the finger on it. We have the highest respect for Canada and love(/hate) to play against them. Emotions for us run high. From what I heard from Canadians they don't see us as the no 1 rival, but we definitely do.
I can agree with some of what both of you state. But you are both stating it from the Swedish perspective on an NA board to a devout Canadian. While I may appear to be slinging with some of this I'm actually being patient and with some restraint.

Canadians, and Canadian players, have their own views of Swedish player tactics and conduct in world hockey play. Its an unfavorable one by the way. Cheating and diving coming closest to the mark. So then especially odd that a Canadian writhing in pain on the ice isn't afforded basic decency from the crowd at the game. I dare say if this was a Swede kicking like he'd been shot on the ice playing in Canada there would be some momentary skepticism, for very good reason, followed by respectful attention if player was actually injured. Canadian players conversely don't have a habit of feigning injury so not sure why Swedes would suspect anything rotten in Denmark unless engaging in psychological "projection"..

All intended in good fun, till someone shoots their eye out.

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05-17-2013, 02:33 PM
  #666
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They did cheer when he got up. But that doesn't cancel out the jeering while he was writhing on the ice.

They jeered Staal when he went down.
They cheered when he got up.
They boo'd the call afterwards.

The fact of the matter is, the crowd was giving it to Staal before the penalty was given. They couldn't know about the major penalty and the ejection before it was made. I honestly don't see how anyone could argue otherwise.
For whatever reason the video link isn't "available in my country (Canada) due to copyright reasons. Probably because I'm a loathsome Canadian. Anybody else getting this. I want to obsess and froth at the mouth some more by watching this.

PS For a lark I was watching the game from a Euro feed. The commentary for some reason being strange. Whenever Kanaaaadeyeeeennn (Canadian) was pronounced it was stated with an emotive invective tone that suggested axe murder. It sounded more like an accusation than an adjective. I laughed out loud several times as everytime canadian was stated it was with angst.


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05-17-2013, 02:41 PM
  #667
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I can agree with some of what both of you state. But you are both stating it from the Swedish perspective on an NA board to a devout Canadian. While I may appear to be slinging with some of this I'm actually being patient and with some restraint.

Canadians, and Canadian players, have their own views of Swedish player tactics and conduct in world hockey play. Its an unfavorable one by the way. Cheating and diving coming closest to the mark. So then especially odd that a Canadian writhing in pain on the ice isn't afforded basic decency from the crowd at the game. I dare say if this was a Swede kicking like he'd been shot on the ice playing in Canada there would be some momentary skepticism, for very good reason, followed by respectful attention if player was actually injured. Canadian players conversely don't have a habit of feigning injury so not sure why Swedes would suspect anything rotten in Denmark unless engaging in psychological "projection"..

All intended in good fun, till someone shoots their eye out.
This is back to the initial point, and as you know and I have argued, I don't think that the crowd's reaction had anything to do with Staal.

TBH I think it is perfectly fine reacting against Edler, same as there were reactions against Getzlaf last WC. What I don't like is when this becomes a SWE-supporter vs. CAN-supporter issue.

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05-17-2013, 02:49 PM
  #668
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This is back to the initial point, and as you know and I have argued, I don't think that the crowd's reaction had anything to do with Staal.

TBH I think it is perfectly fine reacting against Edler, same as there were reactions against Getzlaf last WC. What I don't like is when this becomes a SWE-supporter vs. CAN-supporter issue.
Its all good. But the reality whether you or I like it is there tends to be such perspectives and on both sides and that go beyond even present generations. Thats what I'm trying to convey. For instance how many times when you were a kid would you hear about "Canadian players" in a negative context before you had even developed your *own perspective*.

We're all products, in some way, of subtle, or overt generalization inputs. Even perpetuating them as I have done for point of illustration.

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05-17-2013, 02:56 PM
  #669
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Was Yakupov invited to play for Russia? He's a pretty patriotic kid, I figured he'd jump at the chance to play but I didn't see him anywhere on the roster.

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05-17-2013, 03:03 PM
  #670
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Its all good. But the reality whether you or I like it is there tends to be such perspectives and on both sides and that go beyond even present generations. Thats what I'm trying to convey. For instance how many times when you were a kid would you hear about "Canadian players" in a negative context before you had even developed your *own perspective*.

We're all products, in some way, of subtle, or overt generalization inputs. Even perpetuating them as I have done for point of illustration.
It comes back to the love/hate thing again, and to what OiledUp brought up. Swedes generally have the utmost respect for Canada but emotions run high and sometimes they get interpreted in the wrong way.

Of course there's an idea of how certain nations play and/or behave. As I said, Canadians are generally portrayed as overly physical, but what often gets forgotten here is that attached to that was always the notion that NA teams knew what it took to win, nothing fancy, no passing around forever (as Sweden used to do); shoot, score, crash the net, hit and win.

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05-17-2013, 03:17 PM
  #671
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So no.



I agree that Ruff isn't the answer. I also think Taylor Hall is the best Oiler and one of the best forces in the Western Conference. However, top 10 in a shortened season isn't a big deal. Top 3... for sure. Memorial Cup? We are talking World Championships... you know, hockey that MEN play. Not boys. Big difference.
So there are more men than boys in the WHC than the NHL? Can you name half of the Swedish roster right now?

And a season is a season is a season no matter how long it is. Ask Leaf fans if they discredit their playoff appearance because of a half season. Or Devils fans if 1995 doesn't count.

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05-17-2013, 04:29 PM
  #672
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Its all good. But the reality whether you or I like it is there tends to be such perspectives and on both sides and that go beyond even present generations. Thats what I'm trying to convey. For instance how many times when you were a kid would you hear about "Canadian players" in a negative context before you had even developed your *own perspective*.

We're all products, in some way, of subtle, or overt generalization inputs. Even perpetuating them as I have done for point of illustration.
I wouldn't say growing up I was fed a negative point of view on canadian players, if anything everything canadian and north american when it came to hockey was held in absolute awe. So much so that swedish teams seemed to be beat before hand a lot of the time when they played Canada. It's only the last decade or so that sweden actually started to act like they have a chance when playing Canada. And still we tend to think of Canada as the great overlords of hockey thus giving Canada the edge before the puck has even dropped.

Growing up me and my friends favourite players were pretty much all canadian. Guys like Sundin, Forsberg and Lidström didn't really gain in popularity until the late 90s early 00s. Lidström wasn't held in very high regard by the masses until -06 and was probably more popular in NA than in Sweden up to that point.
Guys like me who grew up in the 90s favoured guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Roy, Bourque, Robataille and so on, much more so than the swedish or other european players in that era. Canadian players were "cooler" and some guys even favoured the canadian NT over the boring swedish team.

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05-17-2013, 05:06 PM
  #673
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Fair enough, and I apologize for my post. I expressed myself very badly and it was not my intention to insult you.
No worries man, hockey and national pride can be a passionate subject.

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05-17-2013, 08:57 PM
  #674
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Canadians, and Canadian players, have their own views of Swedish player tactics and conduct in world hockey play. Its an unfavorable one by the way. Cheating and diving coming closest to the mark.
I must say that i find it quite insulting to be viewed as someone who is to be looked upon as cheating and diving which i find the swedish way of hockey being as far away from as anything else.

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05-17-2013, 10:51 PM
  #675
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I must say that i find it quite insulting to be viewed as someone who is to be looked upon as cheating and diving which i find the swedish way of hockey being as far away from as anything else.
I like the game that the Europeans play.
I will say that with universally respected players like Forsberg and Lidstrom gone from the NHL (and Alfedsson will probably retire soon) the image of Swedish hockey carried to NHL fans will be the image of guys like Edler and the Sedins. As I'm sure you know those three play on the divingest, cheatingest, whiniest team in the NHL .... some of that was bound to rub off.

Thank God you still have Zetterberg ...

Anyway, congratulations to Sweden. Unfortunately I couldn't catch the game but it sounds like Canada didn't deserve the win.

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