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Old
05-16-2013, 07:17 PM
  #601
Bonzai12
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Only on HFBoards......Seth Jones > Parise/Suter.....thats why I love this place.

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05-16-2013, 07:38 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
Only on HFBoards......Seth Jones > Parise/Suter.....thats why I love this place.
I argue that Seth Jones plus a whole dumptruck full of cap space on this team actually is better than Parise/Suter on the Wild. I'm probably in the minority but I think Parise is massively overpaid. Minny is kinda screwed capwise: Parise and Suter for a combined 15M, Heatley @ 7.5M, Koivu @ 6.75M and Pominville @5.3M. That's a little over 50% of the cap blown on those 5 guys. I don't think they are good enough to contend for a cup and with the cap situation can't really add a lot of talent either. Parise isn't 3.5M/season better than PAP. Suter probably is worth the money but I think signing the two of them together was a costly mistake in more ways than one.

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05-16-2013, 07:42 PM
  #603
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I foresee a pretty major drop-off in Parise's play, mainly due to his style. He takes a beating for a smaller guy.

I don't see much of a drop off in Suter's play for a while. He'll be a top notch defenseman for a long time because of his hockey IQ and ability to avoid big hits.

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05-16-2013, 10:26 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
Only on HFBoards......Seth Jones > Parise/Suter.....thats why I love this place.
i don't think that's what most are trying to say.
obviously Parise and Suter are better players right now and would elevate the team.

however, with the way we're currently structured if Jones pans out plus the potential cap room we will have it is better for us to have Jones + the cap room.

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05-16-2013, 11:32 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by MagicianHishon View Post
Also would good is cap space if you're not spending it. I'd rather have Parise at 7 million than PAP.
I wouldn't. We'd lose players when they got raises. Plus PAP produced favorably compared to Parise.

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05-17-2013, 12:04 AM
  #606
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Originally Posted by Hans Landaskog View Post
I wouldn't. We'd lose players when they got raises. Plus PAP produced favorably compared to Parise.
well, since PAP actually outscored him it would technically be Parise producing favorably to PAP

still i agree with the needing cap space theory for the way this team is structured.

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05-17-2013, 12:23 AM
  #607
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Doesn't really matter what you like though does it. Suter and Parise chose Minnesota over others for reasons other than just money. There is also absolutely no guarantee that the Avs make the playoffs with those two, just like Seth Jones is no guarantee to become a superstar. We're all working in hypotheticals right now. Just because you choose to believe that the team would be better off because of *situation A* than *situation B* does not make your argument more valid.

The Minnesota situation could easily play out where Suter and Parise are seen are too great a weight for one team to hold in the salary cap era, and they'll either be forced to trade them or live with the consequences of their hasty FA action. Where they'll only become disliked by fans, not for their effort or skill but because they cannot keep up with the expectations of their contracts (Which many players signing long term deals have already, historically gone through). Meanwhile Seth Jones is exactly like what all the scouts said he was and dominates at a fraction of the cost of either of Suter/Parise and still has 4 or 5 years of solid enough cap space to bring in a performer in the future. I see that being the likely outcome of Minnesota's situation. Jone's career is up to him and how he is handled as a player, formatively, and during that time financial constraints will not be an issue concerning him, but could harbour a great relationship with the team and decide to stay on for many years at less than what a similar player could get on the open market. I mean... just look at those Parise/Suter deals!!
Hey, I didn't bring it up. The fact is the avs would be better with Suter/Parise for now and in the future.

If LA can pay Richards,Carter,Kopi, Doughty and Quick then, I don't see why the avs would have trouble with Parise/Suter.

Oh yeah Heatley's contract runs out next year so, that's 7 million right there. They'll be fine.
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Originally Posted by The Mars Volchenkov View Post
I foresee a pretty major drop-off in Parise's play, mainly due to his style. He takes a beating for a smaller guy.

I don't see much of a drop off in Suter's play for a while. He'll be a top notch defenseman for a long time because of his hockey IQ and ability to avoid big hits.
Nah, that guy has an engine that just won't quite. He's going nowhere.
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Originally Posted by Hans Landaskog View Post
I wouldn't. We'd lose players when they got raises. Plus PAP produced favorably compared to Parise.
This isn't fantasy hockey. Parise brings much more to the table than just points, he's a 2way heart soul type of player. He's better than PAP in just about everything. Parise's floor offensively is a 60+point player, PAP's ceiling is 60+pts.

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05-17-2013, 12:29 AM
  #608
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If the Wild offered Parise for PAP right now, would some of you actually turn that down? That's crazy talk.

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05-17-2013, 07:04 AM
  #609
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
If the Wild offered Parise for PAP right now, would some of you actually turn that down? That's crazy talk.
PAP has shown great chemistry with Duchene. He outscored Parise this year. He eats up 3.5 million dollars less of cap. He is "off the books" in 3 years, not 12.

In a perfect world, yes you would take Parise over PAP, but in a cap world where lots changes in a couple years, that is a tough call. Probably would have been pretty stupid to for fans to say that five years ago they wouldn't trade Aebischer for Dipietro, or Arnason for Gomez, Clark for Redden. Things change, and they can change fast. The thought of being married to any player for another 12 years at 7.5 million is terrifying.

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05-17-2013, 07:21 AM
  #610
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
If the Wild offered Parise for PAP right now, would some of you actually turn that down? That's crazy talk.
PAP is waaaay more cap-friendly. Personally I wouldn't do it. He has great chemistry with Duchene. Don't **** up things which are working. Who knows when we find another PAP for Duchene.

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05-17-2013, 07:40 AM
  #611
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It's not even the 7.5M that bothers me so much...it's the 12 years.

I pass on Parise.

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05-17-2013, 07:55 AM
  #612
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Crazy talk guys, Parise and Suter are the two pieces our club is missing most. Maybe Jones can eventually live up to Suter's play, but by then he'll be making close to what Suter makes too. Parise is an amazing grinder with a high hockey IQ, he will be playing great hockey for awhile.

We're going to hate playing the Wild for the next five years, but I do agree with the notion they aren't all that great. It's got a lot to do with coaching over there, poorly ran team. Those two actually make fair market value if you consider Getz and Perry's contracts. Now those are ugly, rather be tied to someone for 12 years at 7.5 than 8 @ 9mil.

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05-17-2013, 08:18 AM
  #613
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
If the Wild offered Parise for PAP right now, would some of you actually turn that down? That's crazy talk.
I wouldn't take on a contract like that. Nor give one out to anyone unless it was cap friendly and the player was a franchise centrepiece which I don't necessarily consider Parise to be. I also think that PAP has the tools to produce points nearly as much as Parise or more and would rather reevaluate his contract in a few more years than bring on a long term burden in an extremely volatile profession.

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05-17-2013, 08:20 AM
  #614
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Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
Only on HFBoards......Seth Jones > Parise/Suter.....thats why I love this place.
I don't think anyone has said that. It's about the situation that both teams are in and why I don't think one makes sense, especially for the Avs right now.

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05-17-2013, 08:54 AM
  #615
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Originally Posted by Hans Landaskog View Post
I wouldn't. We'd lose players when they got raises. Plus PAP produced favorably compared to Parise.
Honestly, somewhat this. PAP revitalized Duchene and actually outscored Parise if I remember correctly. I am one of Parise's biggest fans, but dude is overpaid.

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05-17-2013, 09:08 AM
  #616
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Honestly, somewhat this. PAP revitalized Duchene and actually outscored Parise if I remember correctly. I am one of Parise's biggest fans, but dude is overpaid.
I feel like Parise would have done the same for Duchene if not more, the guy is crazy talented, more so than PAP, and his defensive play is more solid. Not that I don't love PAP, but Parise is on a different level.

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05-17-2013, 09:16 AM
  #617
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There was no way that Suter and Parise were going to sign here. They were going to go to Minnesota together and pretty much no where else. The Avs never had a realistic chance at getting them, but of course if we had the chance everybody here would love to have them on the team. And the Avs would have probably been a playoff team, but the odds of them coming here were incredibly low.

Then, IMO Parise isn't worth his cap hit (not a huge difference, but ~1m or so), but that isn't my only issue with his contract. He has 3 BS years at the end of it that lower the cap hit. For the this year he made 12m (there was a 10m signing bonus) and the next two years he makes 12m and 11m. For a team like the Avs that do care about salary a bit the 8m difference between PAP and Parise is huge. Let alone the 24m spent on both Parise and Suter compared to the ~7.75m (assuming Jones would hit the max bonus) that PAP/Jones would have. That extra 16m can pay for both ROR and Stastny to stay, plus part of the raise for Duchene.

Then there is the cap recapture penalty. If Parise retires when he is 36 in 2021, seems like a realistic possibility, the Wild will have over a $5m cap penalty because of his long term contract. Suter is the same story.

Simply put, building a team through UFA is an expensive thing to do and it is only going to get more expensive. For a team like the Avalanche who have a bunch of players getting significant raises after next season, it really isn't feasible to fit two contracts like Suter and Parise without major changes to the team structure and the team's window.


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05-17-2013, 09:22 AM
  #618
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There was no way that Suter and Parise.........
Nicely put.

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05-17-2013, 10:28 AM
  #619
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Originally Posted by MagicianHishon View Post

This isn't fantasy hockey. Parise brings much more to the table than just points, he's a 2way heart soul type of player. He's better than PAP in just about everything. Parise's floor offensively is a 60+point player, PAP's ceiling is 60+pts.
Paying an extra $3.5 million for unquatifiable intangibles sounds like an awful deal to me.

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05-17-2013, 10:31 AM
  #620
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Originally Posted by MagicianHishon View Post
This isn't fantasy hockey. Parise brings much more to the table than just points, he's a 2way heart soul type of player. He's better than PAP in just about everything. Parise's floor offensively is a 60+point player, PAP's ceiling is 60+pts.
PAP was on pace for 73 points this year on a team that finished 2nd last and his ceiling is that low?

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05-17-2013, 10:40 AM
  #621
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Originally Posted by Viking Mode View Post
PAP was on pace for 73 points this year on a team that finished 2nd last and his ceiling is that low?
And he scored 67 points last season (which I put more stock into than his pace for this season). Then, PAP was 2nd on the team with 40 takeaways (10th in the entire NHL)... only 16 more than Parise. PAP is also a hard working heart and soul player, and is underrated defensively (he isn't Selke level, but he is solid in his own end). Hits were roughly the same 50 for PAP, 59 for Parise. Seems like a real good character player, and a good leader (pure outside perspective, but everybody seemed to speak highly of him). So it isn't like Parise brings that much more intangibles to the plate.... he does for sure, but not 3.5+m worth.

The only reason that PAP didn't get 5-6m last offseason was Tavares. Everybody was afraid that PAP was a product of him and didn't want to risk a big deal on somebody who could bust. Same thing will happen with Dupuis this summer.

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05-17-2013, 10:47 AM
  #622
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
And he scored 67 points last season (which I put more stock into than his pace for this season). Then, PAP was 2nd on the team with 40 takeaways (10th in the entire NHL)... only 16 more than Parise. PAP is also a hard working heart and soul player, and is underrated defensively (he isn't Selke level, but he is solid in his own end). Hits were roughly the same 50 for PAP, 59 for Parise. Seems like a real good character player, and a good leader (pure outside perspective, but everybody seemed to speak highly of him). So it isn't like Parise brings that much more intangibles to the plate.... he does for sure, but not 3.5+m worth.

The only reason that PAP didn't get 5-6m last offseason was Tavares. Everybody was afraid that PAP was a product of him and didn't want to risk a big deal on somebody who could bust. Same thing will happen with Dupuis this summer.
I agree.. especially for 9 more years.

Dupuis hasn't played with Crosby that much compared to what PAP did with Tavares. Last year he played only 135 mins of his almost 1115 mins with Crosby. This year he produced ok without Crosby, though not clearly as well. But better compared to the most of the Pens players when they play without Crosby.

Anyway, I think they'll re-sign Dupuis.

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05-17-2013, 12:07 PM
  #623
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Parise is a guy who won't age well.

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05-17-2013, 12:10 PM
  #624
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I agree.. especially for 9 more years.

Dupuis hasn't played with Crosby that much compared to what PAP did with Tavares. Last year he played only 135 mins of his almost 1115 mins with Crosby. This year he produced ok without Crosby, though not clearly as well. But better compared to the most of the Pens players when they play without Crosby.

Anyway, I think they'll re-sign Dupuis.
I just got the feeling that Jokinen was Dupuis replacement. Cause how they managed to get his cap hit down for next season. Canes eating 900k of it.

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05-17-2013, 12:24 PM
  #625
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Not a huge fan of Parise, but clearly a very good player.

None the less, I'm very happy with PAP and look forward to his contributions over the next 3 years, at the minimum. Him and Duchene seem to fit like a glove.

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