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Trade Rumours and Proposals Thread Part 17: What does "bold" mean?

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Old
05-17-2013, 03:00 PM
  #676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doubledown99 View Post
Very differing opinions on Seguin.

Personally I'd give up a Kessel return. Our 1st this year and next year for Seguin.

Maybe the 7th overall turns out great but we are getting a more developed player in Seguin.....not expecting people to agree but that is what I would do.

It's Boston is kind of in the same position with Seguin as they were years back with Kessel
Hmm... Now that's an actual deal that sounds "mildly", mildly enticing. it only works if Seguin goes to the Bruins and says he wants out.

Hall-RNH-Yakupov
--- -Seguin-Eberle

With Gagner there, that's a poor man's Pittsburgh (Crosby-Malkin-Staal).

That being said, no. Boston says no. We'll be in cap hell. We don't even have a Letang or a Fleury (the way Dubnyk lets in those "soft goals"... :sarcasm).

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05-17-2013, 03:02 PM
  #677
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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
great work you remember when some players were drafted too. Seguin is better than either of the players you've mentioned by a mile (Barker? Really? why not mention Daigle while you're at it) and also a few years younger. Seguin is also highly regarded by the Bruins and most other NHL teams. For some reason this fact has escaped you. Don't compare Seguin to Gagner, who has never lived up to expectations and is hard pressed to get extended by the Oilers just because you don't like Seguin's production this year.
Just pointing out the futility of your argument. Sequin's draft pedigree means nothing now. If he was "highly regarded" by the Bruins then why has he been demoted off his line during the most important games of the year? I dont think comparing Gagner to Sequin is as far fetched as you think it is. Neither cut it as a center, and both are weak on the puck and are unlikely to win a puck battle. They both are offensively gifted.

In fact I would say Gagner battles harder than Sequin does.

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05-17-2013, 03:08 PM
  #678
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Originally Posted by 17Kurri View Post
Forget Gagner, he doesn't do anything for the trade from Boston's perspective.

I don't know what you guys are basing Seguin's "greatness" on, but hopefully it isn't points. Because if it is points, the 7th overall from Seguin's draft year, Jeff Skinner, actually has more points than Seguin. Maybe we should do 7th overall for Skinner (who, btw, I also like quite a bit)?
Well if you want to go that route, Seguin outproduced Skinner by 8 points this year and had 3 more goals. He has also outproduced Skinner the last 2 seasons. S

Skinner is a great player too but he's not better than Seguin. He just had a WAY better rookie year.

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05-17-2013, 03:14 PM
  #679
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Just pointing out the futility of your argument. Sequin's draft pedigree means nothing now. If he was "highly regarded" by the Bruins then why has he been demoted off his line during the most important games of the year? I dont think comparing Gagner to Sequin is as far fetched as you think it is. Neither cut it as a center, and both are weak on the puck and are unlikely to win a puck battle. They both are offensively gifted.

In fact I would say Gagner battles harder than Sequin does.
For the same reason his teammate Lucic sat in the press box earlier this year in Boston. He's cold. If Seguin wasn't highly regarded by Boston, why extend him for a cap hit of $5.75M through 2019? They're betting he's going to be a huge piece of their franchise for a long time going forward.

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05-17-2013, 03:16 PM
  #680
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Originally Posted by nofool6110 View Post
Hmm... Now that's an actual deal that sounds "mildly", mildly enticing. it only works if Seguin goes to the Bruins and says he wants out.

Hall-RNH-Yakupov
--- -Seguin-Eberle

With Gagner there, that's a poor man's Pittsburgh (Crosby-Malkin-Staal).

That being said, no. Boston says no. We'll be in cap hell. We don't even have a Letang or a Fleury (the way Dubnyk lets in those "soft goals"... :sarcasm).
Boston is up tight against next years cap. I think the idea to move Seguin would depend on if they want to keep Horton and this that 1st line together.

If they do, Seguin could be moved.

Regarding our cap....I would be trying to move Gags and Hemsky. If we could get some cheap defenders that would be ideal. I'd move MPS for a comparable cheap defender as well.

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05-17-2013, 03:18 PM
  #681
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Seguin is not the type of player that we need and he doesn't even play center.
Nobody knows if he can transition his game over to center at this level.
He's a lot better than IATL is giving him credit for but he's the last type of player that we need in our top 6. Just doesn't make sense for this team, they have enough high end skilled talent.
Also, it will likely take a whole lot more than 7th OA + Gagner to pry him from Boston IMO. It's just not worth it.

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05-17-2013, 03:28 PM
  #682
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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
For the same reason his teammate Lucic sat in the press box earlier this year in Boston. He's cold. If Seguin wasn't highly regarded by Boston, why extend him for a cap hit of $5.75M through 2019? They're betting he's going to be a huge piece of their franchise for a long time going forward.
Are you comparing moving Lucic down the lineup in meaningless games to moving Sequin out of the top six in the single most important game of the year?

Milan Lucic 9pts +9.
Tyler Hemsky 1pt -2.

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05-17-2013, 03:32 PM
  #683
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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
Well if you want to go that route, Seguin outproduced Skinner by 8 points this year and had 3 more goals. He has also outproduced Skinner the last 2 seasons. S

Skinner is a great player too but he's not better than Seguin.
He just had a WAY better rookie year.
I'm not sure who the better player is at this point, tbh. Total points and PPG seem to suggest Skinner.

That said, are you willing to give up 7th overall for Skinner?

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05-17-2013, 04:53 PM
  #684
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Are you comparing moving Lucic down the lineup in meaningless games to moving Sequin out of the top six in the single most important game of the year?

Milan Lucic 9pts +9.
Tyler Hemsky 1pt -2.
As a coach you play the guys who give you the best chance to win right now. If Seguin is cold and Lucic is hot, who do you play? When the shoe is on the other foot and Seguin is hot and Lucic is cold, Julien plays Seguin. It's not as if Julien sat Lucic "cuz the games were meaningless", he sat him because he was playing like ****. Furthermore, sitting out a game is FAR worse than just getting demoted.

Now watch this:

Jonathan Teows 0 goals, 3 points and even "in the most important games of the year.
Patrick Kane 0 goals "in the most important games of the year."

I know Kane has 6 assists but you can see my point here.

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Originally Posted by 17Kurri View Post
I'm not sure who the better player is at this point, tbh. Total points and PPG seem to suggest Skinner.

That said, are you willing to give up 7th overall for Skinner?
I absolutely would trade 7th overall straight up for Skinner or Seguin and laugh about it all summer. Go peddle that trade on the Carolina board or the Boston board or even the main board and see how many people think we're coming out on the loser's end. However, that's just simply not a trade that's realistically going to happen, we both know this.

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05-17-2013, 05:08 PM
  #685
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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
As a coach you play the guys who give you the best chance to win right now. If Seguin is cold and Lucic is hot, who do you play? When the shoe is on the other foot and Seguin is hot and Lucic is cold, Julien plays Seguin. It's not as if Julien sat Lucic "cuz the games were meaningless", he sat him because he was playing like ****. Furthermore, sitting out a game is FAR worse than just getting demoted.

Now watch this:

Jonathan Teows 0 goals, 3 points and even "in the most important games of the year.
Patrick Kane 0 goals "in the most important games of the year."

I know Kane has 6 assists but you can see my point here.



I absolutely would trade 7th overall straight up for Skinner or Seguin and laugh about it all summer. Go peddle that trade on the Carolina board or the Boston board or even the main board and see how many people think we're coming out on the loser's end. However, that's just simply not a trade that's realistically going to happen, we both know this.
I knew it. Oilers fans are always trying to do what's right for other teams, based on what the fans of these other teams are saying. Who cares what they're saying? They're the same fans who wouldn't give up a 7th overall for Hall, for example. You should remember that when copying and pasting their proposals.

As middle of the road as our management has managed our team's assets in the past, I shudder to think what we'd have if we were left to the devices of the collective fan base. Probably on the brink of folding...

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05-17-2013, 05:15 PM
  #686
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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
As a coach you play the guys who give you the best chance to win right now. If Seguin is cold and Lucic is hot, who do you play? When the shoe is on the other foot and Seguin is hot and Lucic is cold, Julien plays Seguin. It's not as if Julien sat Lucic "cuz the games were meaningless", he sat him because he was playing like ****. Furthermore, sitting out a game is FAR worse than just getting demoted.
First off, its been more than ONE game. Secondly if you are saying that Lucic performs when the games matter most and Sequin performs better when the games done mean anything then I would agree completely.

Quote:
Jonathan Teows 0 goals, 3 points and even "in the most important games of the year.
Patrick Kane 0 goals "in the most important games of the year."
Have they been demoted?

Quote:
I know Kane has 6 assists but you can see my point here.
Not really. Of course the Hawks have only played 6 games so Kane is a ppg and +4. Sequin has played 8 games with 0 goals 1 assist and is -2. Not a good comparison.

Quote:
I absolutely would trade 7th overall straight up for Skinner or Seguin and laugh about it all summer. Go peddle that trade on the Carolina board or the Boston board or even the main board and see how many people think we're coming out on the loser's end. However, that's just simply not a trade that's realistically going to happen, we both know this.
The same main board that still thinks Sequin > Hall? I dont think so. The trade may not happen, but Sequin is hella overrated on HF and this will become more apparent over time.

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05-17-2013, 05:23 PM
  #687
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Originally Posted by 17Kurri View Post
I knew it. Oilers fans are always trying to do what's right for other teams, based on what the fans of these other teams are saying. Who cares what they're saying? They're the same fans who wouldn't give up a 7th overall for Hall, for example. You should remember that when copying and pasting their proposals.

As middle of the road as our management has managed our team's assets in the past, I shudder to think what we'd have if we were left to the devices of the collective fan base. Probably on the brink of folding...
Umm....no. When you negotiate a trade with another GM, it's not a bad idea to know what he's thinking. It's pretty clear that most fans out there would trade a 7th overall for Hall no questions asked. So would 29 GMs. I'm not doing what's best for other teams, it's just common sense man. I'm not doing what's best for Boston or Carolina, I just believe that if MacTavish called Rutherford or Chiarelli and asked them if they'd take 7th overall for Seguin or Skinner that he'd hear laughter then a click. 7th overall for either of these two favors the Oilers big time.

Middle of the road asset management you say? No, it's just been TERRIBLE asset management. Most posters on HFOil could've done a better job than Tambellini.

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05-17-2013, 05:32 PM
  #688
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
First off, its been more than ONE game. Secondly if you are saying that Lucic performs when the games matter most and Sequin performs better when the games done mean anything then I would agree completely.

You really like to twist arguments when you're behind on the scoreboard don't you? You'll have to do better. What I said was very clear. If player A is outperforming player B then player A gets ice time. It doesn't matter what time of year it is.

Have they been demoted?

When has Boston relied as heavily on Seguin as Chicago does on Teows? Once you answer that you'll know why Teows hasn't been demoted.

Not really. Of course the Hawks have only played 6 games so Kane is a ppg and +4. Sequin has played 8 games with 0 goals 1 assist and is -2. Not a good comparison.

0 goals in 6 games is under-performing by Kane's standards. I like how you conveniently skipped over Teows' performance though.

The same main board that still thinks Sequin > Hall? I dont think so. The trade may not happen, but Sequin is hella overrated on HF and this will become more apparent over time.
Seguin being overrated on the main boards doesn't make him worth less than Edmonton's 7th overall this year. Hall has nothing to do with this, stop grasping at straws.

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05-17-2013, 05:33 PM
  #689
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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
Umm....no. When you negotiate a trade with another GM, it's not a bad idea to know what he's thinking. It's pretty clear that most fans out there would trade a 7th overall for Hall no questions asked. So would 29 GMs. I'm not doing what's best for other teams, it's just common sense man. I'm not doing what's best for Boston or Carolina, I just believe that if MacTavish called Rutherford or Chiarelli and asked them if they'd take 7th overall for Seguin or Skinner that he'd hear laughter then a click. 7th overall for either of these two favors the Oilers big time.

Middle of the road asset management you say? No, it's just been TERRIBLE asset management. Most posters on HFOil could've done a better job than Tambellini.
I'll agree to disagree with both bolded parts, only because I'm not even sure if you're actually exaggerating...I'd hope so, but you can never be too sure here on HFBoards.

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05-17-2013, 05:40 PM
  #690
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Originally Posted by 17Kurri View Post
I'll agree to disagree with both bolded parts, only because I'm not even sure if you're actually exaggerating...I'd hope so, but you can never be too sure here on HFBoards.
No I'm quite serious. A GM who led his team to two last place and one 2nd last place finish in 3 consecutive years just plain sucks.

Can you please tell me what's so great about this year's 7th overall that Rutherford and Chiarelli should give up on players their organizations love and have spent 3 years developing?

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05-17-2013, 05:52 PM
  #691
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LOL, all this arguing over Seguin when the only player on the Oilers roster the Bruins would trade him for straight up would be Taylor Hall.

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05-17-2013, 06:13 PM
  #692
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Willis suggests we RFA tender Chris Tanev.

Another soft small d-man? No thanks.

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05-17-2013, 06:25 PM
  #693
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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
You really like to twist arguments when you're behind on the scoreboard don't you? You'll have to do better. What I said was very clear. If player A is outperforming player B then player A gets ice time. It doesn't matter what time of year it is.
Of course not. October is the same as May. Good point. Wade Redden and Daniel Paille are outperforming Sequin. Cant say they are outperforming Toews or Kane though. You do realize Kane is 3rd on the Hawks in playoff scoring right?

Quote:
When has Boston relied as heavily on Seguin as Chicago does on Teows? Once you answer that you'll know why Teows hasn't been demoted.
Because Toews (not Teows) is twice the player Sequin is?

Quote:
0 goals in 6 games is under-performing by Kane's standards. I like how you conveniently skipped over Teows' performance though.
3rd in team scoring is under performing? I wonder what 16th would be? Demoted out of the top six? I think I may be onto something!

Quote:
Seguin being overrated on the main boards doesn't make him worth less than Edmonton's 7th overall this year. Hall has nothing to do with this, stop grasping at straws.
I think I may be the only one who is grasping anything here.

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05-17-2013, 06:31 PM
  #694
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Originally Posted by OilerFan4Life View Post
Willis suggests we RFA tender Chris Tanev.

Another soft small d-man? No thanks.
He's that, but also a very good skater, makes smart reads and makes few mistakes. I would love him in our top 6.

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05-17-2013, 07:50 PM
  #695
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Of course not. October is the same as May. Good point. Wade Redden and Daniel Paille are outperforming Sequin. Cant say they are outperforming Toews or Kane though. You do realize Kane is 3rd on the Hawks in playoff scoring right?

Because Toews (not Teows) is twice the player Sequin is?



3rd in team scoring is under performing? I wonder what 16th would be? Demoted out of the top six? I think I may be onto something!

I think I may be the only one who is grasping anything here.

I think NHL coaches know that if you're not winning in October there's a good chance you're not playing in May so they assign personnel spots in the lineup that give their team the best chance to win. I've explained this 3 different ways now. Clearly, this can't escape your grasp again.

You do realize Kane is Chicago's best player and he should be 1st in Hawks playoff scoring right? You know, like he was the rest of the year. You do realize Patrick Kane is capable of more than 0 goals in 6 playoff games right? You do realize that means he's under-performing right?

Kane and Toews (thanks for the proper spelling ) are being out performed by Hossa and Sharp. Kane and Toews are better than Hossa and Sharp. Just because Toews is twice the player Seguin is, it doesn't mean he's immune from criticism for not playing up to his standards. By your logic, Kane and Toews don't believe that games are more important in May so they've decided to under perform. Sound about right?

BTW Seguin is still averaging 16:54 in ice time in the playoffs including key situations in OT and critical PPs. If he was playing as horribly as you're implying you'd think he'd get a few minutes less than that.

Anyways, I watch the games. Have a great night IATL, thanks for the debate.

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05-17-2013, 07:51 PM
  #696
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Originally Posted by OilerFan4Life View Post
Willis suggests we RFA tender Chris Tanev.

Another soft small d-man? No thanks.
Actually, if you read the article, he says that Tanev is an interesting RFA possibility, but he is not a good fit for the Oilers.

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05-17-2013, 08:14 PM
  #697
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LOL, all this arguing over Seguin when the only player on the Oilers roster the Bruins would trade him for straight up would be Taylor Hall.
I think the Bruins would also trade Seguin for one of RNH, Yakupov or Eberle.

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05-17-2013, 08:25 PM
  #698
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To me, this is the biggest issue I have with people trying to completely reject any value of these "advanced stats". So often, people assume that those who use/quote/study these numbers don't watch or understand hockey games.

Of course nobody is going to watch every game for every team, or even pay attention to every player in any one game, but if the numbers agree with what a guy IS able to watch and understand, then why wouldn't you assume they work for other players on other teams?

Because I can almost guarantee you that most people from the "I just watch the games" crowd use stats just as much to determine how good certain players are, they just use different ones, and probably don't watch any more hockey than those who reference things like "Corsi" and "on-ice save percentage".
I have no problems with the type of fan that you are describing, if they watch AND dabble in advanced stats a bit, fine. What I do have a problem with is those that don't watch much and feel that they are experts on every player in the league because they believe that player X from team Y is the same as a player on their team simply because some of their numbers are similar. It seems to me that advanced stats are at least heading in the right direction compared to what they first were when they were treated as gospel here, hell maybe in my lifetime there will be some that I genuinely value and respect. Until that time, it is what it is.

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05-17-2013, 08:25 PM
  #699
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I think the Bruins would also trade Seguin for one of RNH, Yakupov or Eberle.
Not sure about Eberle, but IMO they'd be fools not to deal him for RNH or Nail.

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05-17-2013, 10:19 PM
  #700
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I absolutely would trade 7th overall straight up for Skinner or Seguin and laugh about it all summer.
Oilers win the trade no doubt, but the team can't afford another contract like that in the same age group unless its a dman.

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