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Is Henrik Lundqvist An HOFer?

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05-15-2013, 10:45 PM
  #126
tombombadil
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
I've always found it bizarre (although I suppose not entirely unexpected, given some of the national biases that exist here) that an "accomplishment" such as being selected to be on a Canada team in a best-on-best tournament is regarded by some as equal if not better as being an actual key participant (such as the starting goaltender) for another country that won such a tournament.

I suppose, given how a decent portion of the media seem to act as if the 1998 and 2006 Olympics never occurred, this isn't altogether surprising.
there are some serious biases here.

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05-15-2013, 10:53 PM
  #127
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Not yet, but he will be definitely. Hes just in his prime and has been consistently the best goalie in the world for years.

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05-15-2013, 10:59 PM
  #128
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I like Lundqvist a lot, but for me to vault him over non-HHoF guys such as Cujo and Luongo he would need a SC.

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05-16-2013, 07:56 AM
  #129
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One thing I find funny about Fleury. Big Phil is bringing up great Fleury games (and hell saves) in his runs to the cup finals. Yet, goalies like Lundqvist and Luongo are nitpicked for their ****** performances. Honestly, I'd say some of the best performances of Lundqvist's career have come in the playoffs. He also has had some pretty bad performances. Still, people look at his bad performances. For Fleury it's his good performances. Seems a little (actually A LOT) unfair. If you compare someone's worst performance to someone else's best you can make the best players in NHL history look bad.

Brodeur wasn't all that great in the finals against the Avs. Halak was ****ing amazing in 2 series in 2010. Halak>Brodeur.

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05-16-2013, 08:05 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
Lundqvist is the consistently best goalie since Brodeur. If there were a belt, where one had to actually beat the champ convincingly, Henrik would have had the belt for 5 years now.

Roy, Hasek, Marty, Lundqvist. No on has been definitely better than Hank for more than one year in the last 5.
Tim Thomas doesn't exist in your world?

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05-16-2013, 08:17 AM
  #131
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Hell, I think there's a pretty compelling case for Tomas Vokoun above Lundqvist.

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05-16-2013, 08:18 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by gmm View Post
I like Lundqvist a lot, but for me to vault him over non-HHoF guys such as Cujo and Luongo he would need a SC.
I always find this type of view puzzling.

People say they account for the difference in say a 6 and 30 team league then stuff like needing a SC and not enough top finishes comes up.

In a 30 team league it's very possible that the best goalie, Dman and player or at least one of them over that period doesn't actually get a SC.

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05-16-2013, 10:30 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Sonny Lamateena View Post
In 19 Seasons Cujo finished 3rd, 4th, and 11th, in Vezina voting.

In 8 Seasons Lundqvist has finished 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 6th, 6th, 4th, 1st, and this season will have another top 3 finish.
different eras.

CuJo was never on the same level as players like Roy, Belfour, Hasek, and Brodeur, so I wouldn't expect high Vezina numbers for him.

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05-16-2013, 11:57 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by gmm View Post
I like Lundqvist a lot, but for me to vault him over non-HHoF guys such as Cujo and Luongo he would need a SC.
I don't buy this. Lundqvist already has a comparable, if not better regular season resume than both Luongo and Cujo (assuming that Henrik keeps up his current pace for another few years)...and last year and this year, he has shown what he can do in the playoffs. Neither Cujo nor Luongo has a cup, so I don't see why Henrik needs one to surpass them.

I also don't get the fascination with Joseph. I loved him when I was growing up, but he was closer to the Kolzig/Beezer/Richter group of goalies than he was to Brodeur/Hasek/Roy/Belfour. Even if you take out those four goalies completely, Henrik stacks up pretty nicely against Cujo in Vezina voting.

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05-16-2013, 12:59 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
For the bolded... you meant to say "all"
lol I want to be fair he has performed well in some. he certainly wasn't this horrendous lump of dung every year

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05-16-2013, 02:06 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
I don't buy this. Lundqvist already has a comparable, if not better regular season resume than both Luongo and Cujo (assuming that Henrik keeps up his current pace for another few years)...and last year and this year, he has shown what he can do in the playoffs. Neither Cujo nor Luongo has a cup, so I don't see why Henrik needs one to surpass them.
So a goalie who topped out at 4th in save% in the regular season has a better regular season record than a guy who led the league twice and was top-3 four times? Wow.

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05-16-2013, 03:55 PM
  #137
Sonny Lamateena
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamjs View Post
different eras.

CuJo was never on the same level as players like Roy, Belfour, Hasek, and Brodeur, so I wouldn't expect high Vezina numbers for him.
I don't know who's voting record i was looking at but Cujo's is much better than i posted.

In 19 Seasons Cujo finished 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10, 11, in Vezina voting.

In 8 Seasons Lundqvist has finished 1, 1-3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 6, 6.

You make a good point about era though, now if you remove Roy, Hasek, Belfour, and Brodeur from the voting the results still slightly favor Lundqvist but it is much closer.

Joseph 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8
Lundqvist 1, 2, 2, 2, 1-3, 4, 5, 6

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05-16-2013, 04:29 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
So a goalie who topped out at 4th in save% in the regular season has a better regular season record than a guy who led the league twice and was top-3 four times? Wow.
Not sure where you are getting those numbers from, but from hockey-reference I am seeing this for SV% finishes

Joseph: 1, 2, 6, 6, 7
Luongo: 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 9, 10
Lundqvist: 4, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10

I'm not sure if hockey-reference has eliminated goalies who played an insufficient number of games, so I'm taking those number with a grain of salt until I look further into them. But yes, Joseph and Luongo have slightly better SV% records than Hank. A couple points:

1) I don't think the difference is all that much, especially when you consider that from year to year, we see random goalies who have career years or maybe only play half the season and put up great numbers (i.e. Smith, maybe Bobrovsky, Elliot, etc.). For example, in 2006 Henrik finished 4th in SV%...two of the guys above him were Hasek and Huet, neither of whom played more then 43 games (granted, Henrik only played 50 that year...his rookie season). The only goalie above him who played more than 43 games was Kiprusoff, who had a .923 SV% instead of Hank's .922. Last season, the only goalie who had a higher SV% than Hank and played more than 40 games was Mike Smith, who was at .930 (Hank was at .930 as well, so they were within a few hundredths of a percentage point).

2) SV% is not the only factor in determining which goalie has been more successful. I could just as easily say that Hank is the only one of the three with a Vezina, or that Joseph is the only one without a gold medal in a major international tournament. Or better yet, I could say that in his first eight seasons, Henrik already has six top-10 SV% finishes...more than Joseph had in his whole career. Let's take everything into account when making these judgements, instead of just a couple factors.

3) I never said that Hank was necessarily better, but I did say that if he kept up his current pace for the next few years, he would be as good if not better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHockey193195
Lundqvist already has a comparable, if not better regular season resume than both Luongo and Cujo (assuming that Henrik keeps up his current pace for another few years)
That's really poorly worded on my part. Henrik has accomplished as much, if not more, through 8 years of his career as Luongo and Joseph did through the first 8 years of their careers (Josephs' back-to-back years of placing 2nd and 1st in SV% sure are impressive, though). And extrapolate to a few more seasons, and Henrik will have accomplished just as much as Joseph in the regular season (again, if you want to hang on Joseph leading the league in SV% once, great, but Henrik already has one Vezina that Joseph never got, and potentially will have more in the future).

I'm just rambling at this point, but the take home message I'm trying to get across is that these guys have very comparable careers in the regular season. Joseph and Luongo (so far) do not have cups. To say that Henrik absolutely needs a cup to surpass either of them is a bit much, in my opinion.

Again, this is the quote I was responding to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmm View Post
I like Lundqvist a lot, but for me to vault him over non-HHoF guys such as Cujo and Luongo he would need a SC.


Last edited by mrhockey193195: 05-16-2013 at 04:43 PM.
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05-16-2013, 04:39 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny Lamateena View Post
I don't know who's voting record i was looking at but Cujo's is much better than i posted.

In 19 Seasons Cujo finished 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10, 11, in Vezina voting.

In 8 Seasons Lundqvist has finished 1, 1-3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 6, 6.

You make a good point about era though, now if you remove Roy, Hasek, Belfour, and Brodeur from the voting the results still slightly favor Lundqvist but it is much closer.

Joseph 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8
Lundqvist 1, 2, 2, 2, 1-3, 4, 5, 6
Interesting stuff, those are very solid number from CuJo. Can you do his Vezina voting again, including Belfour this time? I don't know if I'm alone on this, but while I consider Belfour a top 20 goalie of all time (possibly top 15?), he isn't a generational talent like Brodeur/Roy/Hasek (each universally in the top 6). Removing Belfour to me would be almost like removing Luongo from Hank's Vezina voting records. Well, not quite...but I hope you get my point.


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05-16-2013, 04:46 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
Not sure where you are getting those numbers from, but from hockey-reference I am seeing this for SV% finishes

Joseph: 1, 2, 6, 6, 7
Luongo: 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 9, 10
Lundqvist: 4, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10

I'm not sure if hockey-reference has eliminated goalies who played an insufficient number of games, so I'm taking those number with a grain of salt until I look further into them. But yes, Joseph and Luongo have slightly better SV% records than Hank. A couple points:
I somehow managed to look at the saves column for Luongo

Quote:
3) I never said that Hank was necessarily better, but I did say that if he kept up his current pace for the next few years, he would be as good if not better.
Sure, if he keeps up the pace from last two seasons for 3-5 years, then he'll get there.

Thing is, I don't think either of Luongo or Joseph will get in the HHOF. To actually get in, Lundqvist will need either a Cup, or several Vezinas.

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05-16-2013, 04:52 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Sure, if he keeps up the pace from last two seasons for 3-5 years, then he'll get there.

Thing is, I don't think either of Luongo or Joseph will get in the HHOF. To actually get in, Lundqvist will need either a Cup, or several Vezinas.
Something about that statement seems a bit off to me...but I guess looking back at Joseph's career a bit more closely, I'm definitely underrating him a bit.

As per your second statement, considering that practically no goalies have gotten into the HOF without a cup, I agree with you...I'm just hoping that might change moving forward. With a 30 team league, it's getting more and more likely that a terrific goalie ends up not winning a cup.

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05-16-2013, 05:18 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
Interesting stuff, those are very solid number from CuJo. Can you do his Vezina voting again, including Belfour this time? I don't know if I'm alone on this, but while I consider Belfour a top 20 goalie of all time (possibly top 15?), he isn't a generational talent like Brodeur/Roy/Hasek (each universally in the top 6). Removing Belfour to me would be almost like removing Luongo from Hank's Vezina voting records. Well, not quite...but I hope you get my point.
Not much difference, a 2nd becomes a 3rd and an 8th becomes a ninth.

Joseph 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 7, 9

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05-17-2013, 12:32 AM
  #143
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Ugh, I guess people will look at his playoff stats if he doesn't win a cup. They've become very good the last 2 years, before tonight's game they were pretty much identical to the regular season. I assume after today they are slightly worse, but insignificantly. Anyway, however if you look more closely the guy is incredibly uneven in the playoffs. I don't know if anyone ever looks that closely though. The guy either has games where he transcends even his regular season play or where he falls way below his standards of regular season play. In the end they average out to be the same. He's also not giving up 5 goals anymore, but the quality of goals is subpar for a goalie of his level. (See Chimera and Chara goals).

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05-17-2013, 04:43 PM
  #144
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He is part of the most strict position in hockey for the HHOF. Vernon, Barrasso, Moog, Liut, Vachon, Chabot among others haven't gotten in yet, and may never. Some of these goalies mentioned were championship goalies. Some Vezina winners. Some both. One of them finished higher than Bobby Orr in Hart voting one year.

Bottom line, when it comes to goalies only the cream of the crop ever get into the HHOF. There are enough forwards who slip in that shouldn't but not goalies. Lundqvist has played since 2005, only 8 years. He very well may be on his way to the HHOF, but he is a far cry from the "if he retired tomorrow group" and has a lot more that needs to be added before anyone should put him in there.

Heck, there would be an all out war if there was a thread suggesting Luongo should get in. Right now, Lundqvist doesn't have Luongo's resume either.

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05-17-2013, 06:31 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by shinchanyo View Post
lol I want to be fair he has performed well in some. he certainly wasn't this horrendous lump of dung every year
Yes, he's "performed well in some". But at no time has he ever been a top-5 goalie in the NHL.

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05-17-2013, 06:33 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
I somehow managed to look at the saves column for Luongo


Sure, if he keeps up the pace from last two seasons for 3-5 years, then he'll get there.

Thing is, I don't think either of Luongo or Joseph will get in the HHOF. To actually get in, Lundqvist will need either a Cup, or several Vezinas.
several?

So, like, four or five, at least?

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05-17-2013, 06:36 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
He is part of the most strict position in hockey for the HHOF. Vernon, Barrasso, Moog, Liut, Vachon, Chabot among others haven't gotten in yet, and may never. Some of these goalies mentioned were championship goalies. Some Vezina winners. Some both. One of them finished higher than Bobby Orr in Hart voting one year.

Bottom line, when it comes to goalies only the cream of the crop ever get into the HHOF. There are enough forwards who slip in that shouldn't but not goalies. Lundqvist has played since 2005, only 8 years. He very well may be on his way to the HHOF, but he is a far cry from the "if he retired tomorrow group" and has a lot more that needs to be added before anyone should put him in there.

Heck, there would be an all out war if there was a thread suggesting Luongo should get in. Right now, Lundqvist doesn't have Luongo's resume either.
From that list, only Barrasso and Vachon should get serious consideration. And he's knocking on their door right now.

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05-17-2013, 10:11 PM
  #148
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This. He's never even been that far in the playoffs. Why would anyone suggest he could even be close to being a HOFer?

I swear it should be renamed the "Hall of Not So Bad". You should need a serious collection of trophies and the Stanely Cup to get in.


So, if you played on a crappy team your whole career and never won a Stanley Cup, but you are one of the best players in the league, you have no shot at getting in the Hall of Fame? That's a joke to me. The Hall of Fame is about the individual and not the team. Team awards are nice, but it's the individual talents and what he does with them that should be judged.

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05-18-2013, 02:55 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
several?

So, like, four or five, at least?
Are you suggesting that I am too lenient with Lundqvist?

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05-18-2013, 07:48 AM
  #150
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Are you suggesting that I am too lenient with Lundqvist?
I think he was being sarcastic.

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