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Old
05-15-2013, 09:29 AM
  #201
mrhockey193195
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Yeah, he's not bad. Combine this playoffs (to date) and last: 1.78 GAA, .936 save pct. and 5 shutouts in 27 games. But he's only 14-13 over that stretch. Score a goal for this man...
That is pretty astounding. I'm biased, but I truly hope Henrik can get his cup so that his name will be cemented with the all time greats.

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05-15-2013, 09:53 AM
  #202
Dennis Bonvie
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Yeah, he's not bad. Combine this playoffs (to date) and last: 1.78 GAA, .936 save pct. and 5 shutouts in 27 games. But he's only 14-13 over that stretch. Score a goal for this man...
Though he wasn't exactly at his best when he was needed the most (against the Devils) last year.

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05-15-2013, 10:55 AM
  #203
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Yeah, he's not bad. Combine this playoffs (to date) and last: 1.78 GAA, .936 save pct. and 5 shutouts in 27 games. But he's only 14-13 over that stretch. Score a goal for this man...
Hahah sounds like the team support Cujo got in the playoffs.

I've been saying for a while Lundqvist is the best goaltender in the world at the moment.

You always know what you're going to get with him and that is a big plus.

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05-15-2013, 03:24 PM
  #204
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Though he wasn't exactly at his best when he was needed the most (against the Devils) last year.
Yeah, yeah we know...the Devils are still trapping a decade after the fact and Brodeur wasn't good either and Lundqvist isn't any good in the playoffs...we got it.

The all time leader in save pct. has gotta start making his way onto the list soon, yes?

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05-15-2013, 03:39 PM
  #205
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Henrik Lundqvist's goal support in the playoffs:

GP - 62
GF - 136
GF/G - 2.19

For comparison

Luongo
GP - 63
GF - 149
GF/G - 2.37

Thomas
GP - 50
GF - 140
GF/G - 2.80

Fleury
GP - 75
GF - 238
GF/F - 3.17


Last edited by Hammer Time: 05-15-2013 at 03:53 PM.
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05-15-2013, 04:25 PM
  #206
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I don't have time to crunch the numbers right now, but it should be noted that "goal support" is kind of a misleading way to gauge their team strength, because it ignores how many shots their teams are allowing.

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05-15-2013, 04:37 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Meteor View Post
Henrik Lundqvist's goal support in the playoffs:

GP - 62
GF - 136
GF/G - 2.19

For comparison

Luongo
GP - 63
GF - 149
GF/G - 2.37

Thomas
GP - 50
GF - 140
GF/G - 2.80

Fleury
GP - 75
GF - 238
GF/F - 3.17
Was this done by hand or is there some place that keeps information such as this?

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05-15-2013, 09:37 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
I don't have time to crunch the numbers right now, but it should be noted that "goal support" is kind of a misleading way to gauge their team strength, because it ignores how many shots their teams are allowing.
Also, there is the issue that offence is not constant from series to series. For instance, the Penguins won games by 2-1, 2-1 in Games 6 and 7 of the finals, so it's not like Fleury had much of a margin of error in that finals.

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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Was this done by hand or is there some place that keeps information such as this?
It was done by hand, I originally calculated these for a thread on the main boards a few months ago and I just updated it to include the first round of this year's playoffs.

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05-16-2013, 05:58 PM
  #209
Dennis Bonvie
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Yeah, yeah we know...the Devils are still trapping a decade after the fact and Brodeur wasn't good either and Lundqvist isn't any good in the playoffs...we got it.

The all time leader in save pct. has gotta start making his way onto the list soon, yes?
Just providing the facts in the usual unbiased manner.

All-time leader in Save % in playoffs (Tim Thomas) or regular season (Dom Hasek)?

Lundqvist Save % is significantly better than Brodeur's in both regular season and playoffs. But everybody knows that's because they don't know how to count in The Garden state.

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05-17-2013, 12:06 AM
  #210
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Just providing the facts in the usual unbiased manner.

All-time leader in Save % in playoffs (Tim Thomas) or regular season (Dom Hasek)?

Lundqvist Save % is significantly better than Brodeur's in both regular season and playoffs. But everybody knows that's because they don't know how to count in The Garden state.
Another Boston goalie actually: Tuukka Rask! .927!

I hope Boston keeps Anton Khudobin and gets him a few more games too. He's got a .926 save pct. as a Bruin. He'll be hot on Tuukka's tail for best ever soon...

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05-17-2013, 06:38 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Another Boston goalie actually: Tuukka Rask! .927!

I hope Boston keeps Anton Khudobin and gets him a few more games too. He's got a .926 save pct. as a Bruin. He'll be hot on Tuukka's tail for best ever soon...
so true... either we assume Boston has had the best two goalies of the last 5 years on their team, or we acknowledge that Claude Julien is good for goalie stats. Considering the histories of Thomas, Rask and Julien I know which side I'm on.

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05-17-2013, 06:55 PM
  #212
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so true... either we assume Boston has had the best two goalies of the last 5 years on their team, or we acknowledge that Claude Julien is good for goalie stats.
So are we also going to conclude that Dan Bylsma is good for forward statistics because Pittsburgh has had the two best per-game forwards in the past five years?

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05-17-2013, 09:43 PM
  #213
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so true... either we assume Boston has had the best two goalies of the last 5 years on their team, or we acknowledge that Claude Julien is good for goalie stats. Considering the histories of Thomas, Rask and Julien I know which side I'm on.
Don't forget Alex Auld. Nine different stops in 237 games over 10 years and lost his job in the EBEL (Austrian League) this year. But in Boston under Julien, career bests: 2.32 GAA, .919 save pct.

I am so surprised.

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05-17-2013, 10:47 PM
  #214
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So are we also going to conclude that Dan Bylsma is good for forward statistics because Pittsburgh has had the two best per-game forwards in the past five years?
I don't know. Does he do that with all their forwards, or just those two? And were they any good before he came around?

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05-18-2013, 12:53 AM
  #215
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I don't know. Does he do that with all their forwards, or just those two? And were they any good before he came around?
Well let's give Claude Julien twelve goaltenders with starter minutes and see how many of them win two Vezinas and stop 238/246 in the Finals.

It's entirely possible to have two elite players at the same position in the 21-30 team era. The only thing that makes it different is that teams carry different quantities of F/D/G, so two elite goalies and two elite defensemen make up a greater percentage (100%/33%) of the depth chart. Doesn't mean they're a creation of coaching; we all saw the 2011 playoffs. Boston has goalies (Thomas/Rask), Pittsburgh has forwards (Crosby/Malkin; Lemieux/Jagr), Edmonton had forwards (Gretzky/Messier), Detroit had defensemen (Lidstrom/Chelios), St. Louis had defensemen (Pronger/MacInnis), Philadelphia had goalies (Lindbergh/Hextall), etc.

Coaches can influence statistics (as can starts against lesser teams; an effect seen in all backups), but I don't remember seeing Julien make those stops any more than I saw Pat Burns make saves for Brodeur and Roy in their Finals runs with him. Let's not lose sight of the fact that Thomas won his save percentage titles over the league and his backups by a few touchdowns.

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05-18-2013, 03:03 AM
  #216
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I don't know. Does he do that with all their forwards, or just those two? And were they any good before he came around?
Kunitz, Dupuis, Neal...

Of course, we all know it's not Bylsma who elevates these mediocre guys.

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05-18-2013, 09:48 AM
  #217
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Another Boston goalie actually: Tuukka Rask! .927!

I hope Boston keeps Anton Khudobin and gets him a few more games too. He's got a .926 save pct. as a Bruin. He'll be hot on Tuukka's tail for best ever soon...
Well, Tuukka hasn't quite accomplished the things his predecessor did in Boston. He just turned 26 and this was his first season as a teams #1 goaltender. So he has some time to put in.

But I understand your mocking. Clearly you are 100% certain of your rating of NHL goalies. Me, I've just got an opinion based mostly on what I've seen on the ice and read on this site. Perhaps some day (you know, when I'm senile) I will be as confident about my opinion as you of yours.

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05-18-2013, 02:49 PM
  #218
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I went in thinking I would be his advocate. Did a lot of game to game research on him...came away thinking he didn't belong. Seems very likely that he was the Osgood of his era. I'm not sold that John Ross Roach wasn't better or at least on par. Adding Connell was largely a stat grab, unfortunately.
I also did quite a lot reading during the goalie project and sometimes even after that and here is my opinion.

I have never really seen any critic towards Connell on those Ottawa years. Not praise that often but still said that he played well. He was solid part of the team. Definitily not the most important, but he did his part very well like the stats and records show. Then after his comeback he had that great playoffs in Maroons where atleast in my opinion he did proof himself. But I admit that only time that I have seen him credited as best goalie was when he was selected to New York Times all star team in Ottawas Stanley Cup year. Other than that he was often described in style "one of the best" and "always above average".

Roach do get much more praise. He was star goalie in Toronto and won SC in his rookie season. But after the trade to Rangers 3/4 of his seasons in there are described as weak ones. He was often blaimed to be inconsistent. Team was solid Stanley Cup contender (Abels trade might have affected the defense but still) in those years and it won Cups in the year before Ross Roachs stint with Chabot (Miller and Patrick in finals) and then year after with Aitkenhead. After Rangers years Roach did make great comeback in Detroit but like Toronto this was a underdog team. Maybe it was preasure thing? There are some signs that would back that theory.

Maybe Roach had better tools but I would still choose Connell if I would be building a team.

(I could try to refind sources to these but not tonight)

edit. With quick search few articles.

After second Rangers season.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...02123&dq=roach
After third Rangers season.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...05721&dq=roach


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05-18-2013, 10:33 PM
  #219
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Well let's give Claude Julien twelve goaltenders with starter minutes and see how many of them win two Vezinas and stop 238/246 in the Finals.

It's entirely possible to have two elite players at the same position in the 21-30 team era. The only thing that makes it different is that teams carry different quantities of F/D/G, so two elite goalies and two elite defensemen make up a greater percentage (100%/33%) of the depth chart. Doesn't mean they're a creation of coaching; we all saw the 2011 playoffs. Boston has goalies (Thomas/Rask), Pittsburgh has forwards (Crosby/Malkin; Lemieux/Jagr), Edmonton had forwards (Gretzky/Messier), Detroit had defensemen (Lidstrom/Chelios), St. Louis had defensemen (Pronger/MacInnis), Philadelphia had goalies (Lindbergh/Hextall), etc.

Coaches can influence statistics (as can starts against lesser teams; an effect seen in all backups), but I don't remember seeing Julien make those stops any more than I saw Pat Burns make saves for Brodeur and Roy in their Finals runs with him. Let's not lose sight of the fact that Thomas won his save percentage titles over the league and his backups by a few touchdowns.
It's really hard to explain, particularly because it doesn't show up in shot quality as strongly as one would like either, but the effect is definitely there. Look at Khudobin, and like Mike said, the season with Auld. Julien also did this with other goalies before these two. Thomas was a mediocre NHL goalie before Julien, and with Rask, we have no other relevant sample to use for comparison.

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05-18-2013, 11:29 PM
  #220
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Montreal and NJ

Explain the Claude Julien effect in Montreal and NJ. Theodore and Brodeur?

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05-19-2013, 11:31 AM
  #221
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Explain the Claude Julien effect in Montreal and NJ. Theodore and Brodeur?
In NJ, as I recall, and perhaps TDMM can talk further about this, but I recall there being a fair amount of reluctance to Julien's system and how it wasn't really a fit for New Jersey and the players not really buying into it or playing it all that well. Still, Brodeur posted the second highest save pct. of his storied career that year, but by many accounts, the players seemed to be fairly unhappy there and Julien didn't finish out the year despite the statistical success.

I don't have the memory to know if Juliien employed the same tactics in Montreal as he does in Boston. So, I can't personally speak on that without going back and watching the film first...Theodore's 2004 season was one of the best of his career, so I can't imagine he strayed too far from his roots...

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05-19-2013, 12:19 PM
  #222
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In NJ, as I recall, and perhaps TDMM can talk further about this, but I recall there being a fair amount of reluctance to Julien's system and how it wasn't really a fit for New Jersey and the players not really buying into it or playing it all that well. Still, Brodeur posted the second highest save pct. of his storied career that year, but by many accounts, the players seemed to be fairly unhappy there and Julien didn't finish out the year despite the statistical success.

I don't have the memory to know if Juliien employed the same tactics in Montreal as he does in Boston. So, I can't personally speak on that without going back and watching the film first...Theodore's 2004 season was one of the best of his career, so I can't imagine he strayed too far from his roots...
2006-07 in NJ, Brodeur faced his career high in SA and had the only season in his career with > 2000 saves. Despite a solid defensive forward group and very responsible defensemen. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Claude Julien's system.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...brodema01.html

Explains the late season dismissal.

More or less Julien's downfall in Montreal combined with losing the room by acting like a junior coach. BTW he did have solid faceoff centers in Montreal - Yanic Perreault, plus Joe Juneau.

Boston. Suggest looking at the 2007-08 season when Patrice Bergeron was hurt playing only 10 games. Then going forward from 2008-09 with a healthy Bergeron and tracking the goalie stats for Thomas and Rask. Bergeron is the most complete NHL center, a RHS who is elite on face-offs. Balanced with David Krejci a LHS plus two more RHS at center - Tyler Seguin and Rich Peverley and the Bruins have a strong edge at center.

Reality is that without Julien, Boston would have a healthy Bergeron plus center depth with specialty attributes, whose skills would not change nor would Zdeno Chara lose height and reach.

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05-19-2013, 12:41 PM
  #223
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2006-07 in NJ, Brodeur faced his career high in SA and had the only season in his career with > 2000 saves. Despite a solid defensive forward group and very responsible defensemen. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Claude Julien's system.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...brodema01.html

Explains the late season dismissal.

More or less Julien's downfall in Montreal combined with losing the room by acting like a junior coach. BTW he did have solid faceoff centers in Montreal - Yanic Perreault, plus Joe Juneau.

Boston. Suggest looking at the 2007-08 season when Patrice Bergeron was hurt playing only 10 games. Then going forward from 2008-09 with a healthy Bergeron and tracking the goalie stats for Thomas and Rask. Bergeron is the most complete NHL center, a RHS who is elite on face-offs. Balanced with David Krejci a LHS plus two more RHS at center - Tyler Seguin and Rich Peverley and the Bruins have a strong edge at center.

Reality is that without Julien, Boston would have a healthy Bergeron plus center depth with specialty attributes, whose skills would not change nor would Zdeno Chara lose height and reach.
Julien's system in NJ was to collapse into a defensive shell - basically concede territorial possession to the other team, but prevent them from having good scoring chances. In other words, his goalie saw a ton of shots, but not necessarily the highest quality.

It was a terrible system for a team like NJ, which had an absolutely awful group of defensemen at the time, with their #1 (Rafalski) much more useful in the offensive than defensive zone.

The biggest reason he got fired though was because he wasn't able to earn the respect of NJ's vets. There was an incident where an "unnamed" vet on the team (thought to be either John Madden or Scott Gomez) shot a puck at Julien in practice and Julien did nothing. That was the beginning of the end.

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05-19-2013, 02:35 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
2006-07 in NJ, Brodeur faced his career high in SA and had the only season in his career with > 2000 saves. Despite a solid defensive forward group and very responsible defensemen. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Claude Julien's system.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...brodema01.html
Shots against can't be viewed in the same context as it was before the removal of the center red line and the plateauing of goaltending talent (specifically, butterfly-based talent).

Previously, defense could be better measured in shots against because of some of the uncertainty with goaltending from top to bottom. Not to say goaltending was bad all over (not at all) but the tiers of goaltending were much more pronounced 20+ years ago...no longer the case. That's why we see goalies that change teams have such wild fluctuations in statistics these days (Brian Elliott, Mike Smith, Tim Thomas, Ilya Bryzgalov, etc.).

Think about a predominant defensive tactic in the past. Nearly a curse word in hockey, the dreaded "neutral zone trap". When it's installed as a purely passive forecheck, it neutralizes speed in an important area of the ice for creativity and paly development. Typically, forcing a dump and chase scenario that can be thwarted and quickly regurgitated by a puck playing goaltender (Brodeur, Mike Smith, Jacques Plante, or so I've read on the latter) and/or good puck retrieval/zone exit system. I know I certainly don't need to explain that to you, C1958, in fact, you could probably tell me a thing or two, but for the others reading it needed to be touched upon.

The goal then was to prevent shots. It's a neutral zone focus. Combine icing, two-line pass and offside rules plus the lack of trapezoid, and it makes a lot of sense for the era. Weaker goaltenders could be insulated by it a little bit better because they don't have to face as many shots. Or good goalies with top-notch puck playing skills could thrive in it.

Today: two-line pass eliminated, trapezoid in place and goaltending has plateaued. There are few weak goalies in the league today (or, depending on how you look at it, the league is mostly weak goaltending but they're all the same, so it doesn't matter...whatever). They play the percentages more than the position generally. So it's ok to let them make saves. Create "easy" saves. Low quality chances. A 45 foot wrist shot from the left wing boards will not go into today. Allow that shot, collapse down and remove rebounds from the net front and that's it. You work that to perfection and you can do lots of great things with goaltending stats.

The most defensive teams aren't so dependent on their neutral zone tactics, they are more dependent on their forward support down low in their own end. The "collapse" seems to be all the rage today. Goaltenders today can generally stop the first shot from most moderate or low percentage zones (and/or low/moderate quality opportunities). Thus, save percentages are through the roof, but goaltending - to a man - isn't at its historic peak by any stretch.

TL;DR version: Defense of old says that if you want to prevent goals, you better prevent shots. Modern defense suggests that shots are ok from low quality areas, but higher quality areas (including second chance opportunities) are the thing to stop. Not shot prevention, goal prevention. As obvious or as silly as it sounds.

Concerns abound about the ability to exit the zone in a meaningful fashion. Plus, allowing more shots than you're taking is generally a sign that you are losing the puck possession battle - not a positive either.

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05-19-2013, 03:36 PM
  #225
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Shots against can't be viewed in the same context as it was before the removal of the center red line and the plateauing of goaltending talent (specifically, butterfly-based talent).

Previously, defense could be better measured in shots against because of some of the uncertainty with goaltending from top to bottom. Not to say goaltending was bad all over (not at all) but the tiers of goaltending were much more pronounced 20+ years ago...no longer the case. That's why we see goalies that change teams have such wild fluctuations in statistics these days (Brian Elliott, Mike Smith, Tim Thomas, Ilya Bryzgalov, etc.).

Think about a predominant defensive tactic in the past. Nearly a curse word in hockey, the dreaded "neutral zone trap". When it's installed as a purely passive forecheck, it neutralizes speed in an important area of the ice for creativity and paly development. Typically, forcing a dump and chase scenario that can be thwarted and quickly regurgitated by a puck playing goaltender (Brodeur, Mike Smith, Jacques Plante, or so I've read on the latter) and/or good puck retrieval/zone exit system. I know I certainly don't need to explain that to you, C1958, in fact, you could probably tell me a thing or two, but for the others reading it needed to be touched upon.

The goal then was to prevent shots. It's a neutral zone focus. Combine icing, two-line pass and offside rules plus the lack of trapezoid, and it makes a lot of sense for the era. Weaker goaltenders could be insulated by it a little bit better because they don't have to face as many shots. Or good goalies with top-notch puck playing skills could thrive in it.

Today: two-line pass eliminated, trapezoid in place and goaltending has plateaued. There are few weak goalies in the league today (or, depending on how you look at it, the league is mostly weak goaltending but they're all the same, so it doesn't matter...whatever). They play the percentages more than the position generally. So it's ok to let them make saves. Create "easy" saves. Low quality chances. A 45 foot wrist shot from the left wing boards will not go into today. Allow that shot, collapse down and remove rebounds from the net front and that's it. You work that to perfection and you can do lots of great things with goaltending stats.

The most defensive teams aren't so dependent on their neutral zone tactics, they are more dependent on their forward support down low in their own end. The "collapse" seems to be all the rage today. Goaltenders today can generally stop the first shot from most moderate or low percentage zones (and/or low/moderate quality opportunities). Thus, save percentages are through the roof, but goaltending - to a man - isn't at its historic peak by any stretch.

TL;DR version: Defense of old says that if you want to prevent goals, you better prevent shots. Modern defense suggests that shots are ok from low quality areas, but higher quality areas (including second chance opportunities) are the thing to stop. Not shot prevention, goal prevention. As obvious or as silly as it sounds.

Concerns abound about the ability to exit the zone in a meaningful fashion. Plus, allowing more shots than you're taking is generally a sign that you are losing the puck possession battle - not a positive either.
Mike

Making things way too complex. Since the introduction of the two blue lines to hockey., the idea has been to keep the opposing team's puck possession outside the defensive zone (blue line) while transitioning the puck out of the defensive zone to the offensive zone and sustaining pressure in the opponents defensive zone.Chances of scoring against a goalie from outside the blue line have always been minute to negligible.

There are three main components to judging the effectiveness of a team's overall defensive performance. In terms of the order in which they happen:

1.) The total number of times an offensive team crosses the blue line in possession of the puck or gains possession of the puck in the offensive zone (turnover,face-off win). Turnover here has the widest possible definition. Note it is possible to generate multiple turnovers or face-offs from one blue line crossing, likewise multiple shots but the result is always zero or one goals.

2.) The actual game time the puck spends in a team's defensive zone or inside their blue line.

3.) The actual Goals Allowed as opposed to GAA. Team allowing the fewest goals over the course of a schedule has the best chance of winning.

The rest of the generated stats are simply descriptive of the above.

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