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Old
05-18-2013, 02:39 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
I sincerely hope that you're not holding your breath waiting for more to happen.

I expect the same type of roster.

A new coach, new philosophy, and the young players getting time to develop in the NHL will help change the culture of the room.

Expecting more is a bit ridiculous. The cap is dropping, we have luongo and Ballard who certainly need to go.

People need realistic expectations moving forward. This isn't a "cup or bust" roster. Time to realize that.
How realistic is it that Mike Gillis ices a roster significantly weaker than the roster that just got beat 4-0?

Not to mention our 1st and 2nd round opponents next year will be the same teams that beat us 8-1 in the last two years.

Gillis said he planned on "resetting" the roster. Last time that happened big changes were made by UFA signings, trades and offer sheets.

Going with Verviticus' roster is a sure way to get fired in a year if the Canucks don't make a very long run. The most realistic scenario is 3 big changes, two likely being a goalie trade and a coaching change.

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05-18-2013, 02:40 PM
  #402
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No thanks to Edler for Eberle, he's non-physical, small, and really overhyped

Edmonton would have to add. Not to say he isn't a really good player, but good D are a lot harder to find than a winger.

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05-18-2013, 02:42 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by CanaFan View Post
How is Eberle a likely "55-60" point player??? Even discounting his big season, he scored at a 63 point pace this year. Considering he is just 23 I don't understand why you are regressing him so much?

And if you say his 76 pt year was an aberration, what do you say about Edler's two big years running the PP with the Sedins and (previously) Erhoff? How will he repeat those numbers in Edmonton, just as you question how Eberle will score on our 2nd line?
Two big years?

The guy has scored at the 40ish point level for 5 straight years.

In those 5 years he was a cheap.

Eberle already makes Sedin money and IMO, won't be able to keep that up on a winning team.

I like him, but he's paid too much.

Easier to find an Eberle than a 40 point, 25+ minute dman.

The contracts also make Edler more valuable.

Eberle's pace was also closer to 55 points. His 5 points in Edmonton's last two mean nothing games inflates that production.

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05-18-2013, 02:43 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by CanaFan View Post
Well we do need some players who can score goals, regardless of their size.

ID rather have 5'11 Eberle than 6'3 Kassian if the latter doesn't develop an offensive game at some point in the next few years ...
Don't know why you're comparing Kassian to Eberle, I wouldn't trade Edler for someone like Kassian either

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05-18-2013, 02:50 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
How realistic is it that Mike Gillis ices a roster significantly weaker than the roster that just got beat 4-0?

Not to mention our 1st and 2nd round opponents next year will be the same teams that beat us 8-1 in the last two years.

Gillis said he planned on "resetting" the roster. Last time that happened big changes were made by UFA signings, trades and offer sheets.

Going with Verviticus' roster is a sure way to get fired in a year if the Canucks don't make a very long run. The most realistic scenario is 3 big changes, two likely being a goalie trade and a coaching change.
Pretty realistic.

Not sure I understand your second paragraph.

I agree the two big moves are coach and goalie trade.

Not sure he goalie trade augments the roster by doing anything but downgrading the goalie position.

Resetting the roster to me, is giving those young players decent opportunity at the NHL level.

I doubt very much we see anything bigger than that. And no i don't think Gillis will get fired if we don't go on a long run.

This team is in transition. Expecting a long run is setting yourself up for disappointment.

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05-18-2013, 02:51 PM
  #406
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I also expect a very similar roster next year, and unlike most of you I'm fine with that. I want to see how this group performs under a new coach before breaking them up. The only core guy I would consider moving is Edler, but assuming he's still here I will be excited to see how he adapts to a new system.

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05-18-2013, 02:55 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Pretty realistic.

Not sure I understand your second paragraph.

I agree the two big moves are coach and goalie trade.

Not sure he goalie trade augments the roster by doing anything but downgrading the goalie position.

Resetting the roster to me, is giving those young players decent opportunity at the NHL level.

I doubt very much we see anything bigger than that. And know I don't think Gillis will get fired if we don't go on a long run.

This team is in transition. Expecting a long run is setting yourself up for disappointment.
Next years playoffs will be Conference based for the first 2 rounds, its very likely we face LA/SJ if we plan to advance. Our roster in the past 2 years have lost 4-0 and 4-1.

I don't feel this team is capable of a "transition year". We can afford to play our youth in the bottom 6 but we don't have any top line talent we can spend a year developing like Detroit and their D core.

I think Gillis has to re-tool this roster into a contender next year.

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05-18-2013, 02:55 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by CanaFan View Post
Well we do need some players who can score goals, regardless of their size.

ID rather have 5'11 Eberle than 6'3 Kassian if the latter doesn't develop an offensive game at some point in the next few years ...
So we'll have 2 guys on our top 6, Kesler and Kassian with any size.... Well that'll do great in our new division, much better deals Van could make for Edler that doesn't mean us getting smaller.

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05-18-2013, 02:58 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
1. Probably not.
2. For Eberle? **** yeah he would.
3. Meh, pretty much.
4. One of them will.
5. I think that is fairly accurate.
I meant neither GM would be willing to trade within the division, IE the offer would never get made.

If MG turned down an Eberle for Edler swap, he'd be signing his own pink slip.

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05-18-2013, 03:00 PM
  #410
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So we'll have 2 guys on our top 6, Kesler and Kassian with any size.... Well that'll do great in our new division, much better deals Van could make for Edler that doesn't mean us getting smaller.
You don't *need* size in your top 6, you *need* scoring. If it comes in a 6'3 player then great, but you don't turn down scoring just cause it's under six feet FFS ...

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05-18-2013, 03:24 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by CanaFan View Post
You don't *need* size in your top 6, you *need* scoring. If it comes in a 6'3 player then great, but you don't turn down scoring just cause it's under six feet FFS ...
yes, but a soft, overpaid player is not the solution

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05-18-2013, 03:30 PM
  #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
I sincerely hope that you're not holding your breath waiting for more to happen.

I expect the same type of roster.

A new coach, new philosophy, and the young players getting time to develop in the NHL will help change the culture of the room.

Expecting more is a bit ridiculous. The cap is dropping, we have luongo and Ballard who certainly need to go.

People need realistic expectations moving forward. This isn't a "cup or bust" roster. Time to realize that.
If we have more or less the same roster then I see it as a wasted year, and THAT should get Gillis fired. I'm not expecting this team to contend for the Cup next year, and as such this team should be bringing in some key building blocks for the future. If we don't do that then we're just wasting the year and not really accomplishing anything.

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05-18-2013, 03:36 PM
  #413
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so how do we get Loui Eriksson out of Dalas?

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05-18-2013, 03:37 PM
  #414
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there's nothing about this year that lends itself to legitimate rebuilding or retooling. making moves now instead of a year from now when you have a legitimate top ten team isn't going to result in a better team in three years. if you really want optimal returns on assets you're going to have to wait until the year after

thankfully, the nhl made buyouts available for this year and next year. in my mind, if gillis wants to Do Rebuilding Right he's going to work as hard as humanly possible to not use buyouts on booth or ballard and try to work out trades for massively overpriced players at the deadline. if you have two buyouts to play with, it doesn't matter if you acquire brad richards or marian gaborik at the deadline because they're toast in the summer. if he can work it so he gets overpriced, good players as well as assets for taking over those ridiculous contracts, he can both make a really strong run and retool simultaneously

when you have this opportunity as the head of a rich club, i don't see why you don't take it. yeah, its going to offend the sensibilities of some fans that the team didn't massively change but you're going to get better results in the long term and medium term in exchange for poor optics and tell me, since when has this club given a **** about optics

edit: honestly, the canucks dont have established, tradeable assets in either year. this year is edler, whom i highly doubt gets moved, and then rookies/picks. next year is what, booth and more rookies/picks

thank god for buyouts + lots of aquilini's money

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05-18-2013, 03:38 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by CanaFan View Post
You don't *need* size in your top 6, you *need* scoring. If it comes in a 6'3 player then great, but you don't turn down scoring just cause it's under six feet FFS ...
Yeah if your LA, Bruins, Blues, Yotes sure you could fit A smaller scorer but Canucks are already smaller softer team going into a much bigger and hard division, I don't see how Eberle works with this group that we already have. Oilers have a ton of small skilled forwards and they still suck

If size didn't matter we wouldn't of traded Hodgson for Kassian and I'd have a girl friend

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05-18-2013, 03:40 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
yes, but a soft, overpaid player is not the solution
Why is he soft? Does it prevent him from scoring? Is Crosby soft cause he focuses on scoring rather than hitting? Soft is someone like Semin who disappears when games get rough. I've never seen this of Eberle before ...

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05-18-2013, 03:40 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
I sincerely hope that you're not holding your breath waiting for more to happen.

I expect the same type of roster.

A new coach, new philosophy, and the young players getting time to develop in the NHL will help change the culture of the room.

Expecting more is a bit ridiculous. The cap is dropping, we have luongo and Ballard who certainly need to go.

People need realistic expectations moving forward. This isn't a "cup or bust" roster. Time to realize that.
I strongly agree. Ballard, Luongo, Barker, Ebbett, Roy, and Raymond will move on for sure. Booth, Lapierre, Alberts, and more are in limbo. I would be very open to moving Edler, too.

Bringing in a coach and letting the young guys play is what I want to see. However, they do need to add scoring which is why I am open to Edler being moved for a top nine guy.


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05-18-2013, 03:41 PM
  #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verviticus View Post
there's nothing about this year that lends itself to legitimate rebuilding or retooling. making moves now instead of a year from now when you have a legitimate top ten team isn't going to result in a better team in three years. if you really want optimal returns on assets you're going to have to wait until the year after

thankfully, the nhl made buyouts available for this year and next year. in my mind, if gillis wants to Do Rebuilding Right he's going to work as hard as humanly possible to not use buyouts on booth or ballard and try to work out trades for massively overpriced players at the deadline. if you have two buyouts to play with, it doesn't matter if you acquire brad richards or marian gaborik at the deadline because they're toast in the summer. if he can work it so he gets overpriced, good players as well as assets for taking over those ridiculous contracts, he can both make a really strong run and retool simultaneously

when you have this opportunity as the head of a rich club, i don't see why you don't take it. yeah, its going to offend the sensibilities of some fans that the team didn't massively change but you're going to get better results in the long term and medium term in exchange for poor optics and tell me, since when has this club given a **** about optics
So an optimal return on the Sedins is...letting them walk as UFA's for nothing? What happens in a year from now that would give us optimal returns? The only difference I see is that Edler and Burrows will have NTC's kick in and become untradeable.

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05-18-2013, 03:42 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by PoolChamp View Post
so how do we get Loui Eriksson out of Dalas?
Try to get Joe Nieuwendyk re-hired?

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05-18-2013, 03:43 PM
  #420
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Yeah if your LA, Bruins, Blues, Yotes sure you could fit A smaller scorer but Canucks are already smaller softer team going into a much bigger and hard division, I don't see how Eberle works with this group that we already have. Oilers have a ton of small skilled forwards and they still suck

If size didn't matter we wouldn't of traded Hodgson for Kassian and I'd have a girl friend
Hodgson was in a bottom 6 role, which is where size matters since you don't count on scoring from there. As long as Eberle is in your top 6 I could care less about his size. And if the rest of the top 6 is too soft, what does that say for all these plans to essentially stand pat this summer? At least Eberle helps scoring, maybe address the size issue with other moves then ...

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05-18-2013, 03:48 PM
  #421
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Originally Posted by Falconator View Post
I don't ever see Vancouver and Edmonton trading, being they're in the same division.
Tanguay for Leopold?

Kessel for two 1sts?

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05-18-2013, 03:49 PM
  #422
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Had an elaborate trade scenario pop into my head last night, you guys are going to hate it:

-Trade Schneids to NYI for Niederreiter, Reinhart and their 1st. (this was inspired by a similar package someone proposed to move Lu to the Islanders yesterday)
-On draft day package the two firsts to move up to around 10th-12th and take Hunter Shinkaruk.

Boom, prospect cupboard restocked with players ready to contribute right away if needed.

Try not to flip out too hard at a Schneider trade proposal
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanaFan View Post
Easy trade for Vancouver to make, but NYI gives up waaaaaaay too much. You've got their last two top 5 picks plus #15 for one player. As much as I love Schneider, no goalie in this league would get that return ...

Edit: 2 of their last 3 top 5 picks I should say (forgot Strome)
How about we trade Luongo and Ballard for Reinhart, , Niederreiter and Dipietro.

Reason Islanders do it: they get a legit #1 and Ballard as insurance if Streit is not re-signed. Not to mention get rid of Dipietro's 36 million remaining dollars.

Canucks get top 2 d prospect and home town Reinhart plus top 6 prospect up front. We buy out Dipietro obviously.

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05-18-2013, 03:52 PM
  #423
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Canucks only have so many pieces we can trade Kesler, Edler and Schneider are the ones with the value, Schneider won't be traded, so I don't know how we'd trade the price for Eberle then make deals to bring in a bigger power forward center and replace the loss of Edler on the back end as losing with will create a monster hole, on the D core.

I think trading Kesler for Shattenkirk maybe their 1st too? Makes a ton of sense, if we go with a core shakeup, gives us a young(24) top pairing puck moving right side D man to pair with Hamhuis and now Edler and Bieksa can be moved to help the top 6, something on the lines of B. Schenn, Couturier, Johansen type of player in a Edler deal then we can move Bieksa plus a 1st? For a winger

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05-18-2013, 03:52 PM
  #424
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
So an optimal return on the Sedins is...letting them walk as UFA's for nothing? What happens in a year from now that would give us optimal returns? The only difference I see is that Edler and Burrows will have NTC's kick in and become untradeable.
there's literally no chance the sedins are leaving, full stop.

get the idea out of your head. the sedins are not leaving the canucks.

zero chance. no chance. less than no chance. we have a higher chance of signing that fake tennis sedin than we do of losing the sedins in free agency or trading them

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05-18-2013, 03:55 PM
  #425
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Canucks only have so many pieces we can trade Kesler, Edler and Schneider are the ones with the value, Schneider won't be traded, so I don't know how we'd trade the price for Eberle then make deals to bring in a bigger power forward center and replace the loss of Edler on the back end as losing with will create a monster hole, on the D core.

I think trading Kesler for Shattenkirk maybe their 1st too? Makes a ton of sense, if we go with a core shakeup, gives us a young(24) top pairing puck moving right side D man to pair with Hamhuis and now Edler and Bieksa can be moved to help the top 6, something on the lines of B. Schenn, Couturier, Johansen type of player in a Edler deal then we can move Bieksa plus a 1st? For a winger
the following players are not under any circumstances going to waive their NTC short of some incredible act of alienation by management

sedin, sedin, kesler, burrows, bieksa

they've made it exceptionally clear over the years that maintaining close connections to other members of the core was the primary reason for wanting to stay with the canucks and why they took less than what other teams would have offered. gillis has made it clear he will not ask players to waive their ntc. none of this adds up to even having a remote chance of being traded

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