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2013 Draft Thread: "Shoo-in for Nichushkin"

View Poll Results: Draft goes Jones/Mackinnon/Drouin/Barkov/Nichushkin/Nurse. Who should they take?
Monahan 138 73.02%
Lindholm 51 26.98%
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Old
05-19-2013, 12:22 AM
  #176
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I'm a little unsure of Zadorovs offensive potential. Risto/Nurse seem like better bets in terms of drafting a D high.

If Zadorov is capable of putting up around 30 points, then take him.

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05-19-2013, 01:06 AM
  #177
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I'm a little unsure of Zadorovs offensive potential. Risto/Nurse seem like better bets in terms of drafting a D high.

If Zadorov is capable of putting up around 30 points, then take him.
Points are one of the last things I look in a d-man. Look at Chris Tanev, Jason Garrison, Karl Alzner, Dennis Seidenberg, etc. It's the ability to think the game, and the ability to think it at a lightning quick speed. Processing your surroundings and acting instantly in the defensive setting and being able to advance and turn the puck out of your zone as quick as possible are the most important traits in a d-man. This is where I believe Zadorov struggles and am more concerned about that point than anything regarding offense. I have similar concerns regarding Sam Morin who is a big riser on a lot of lists right now.

I was in Ontario last week and saw Barrie and London play twice and I just don't get a great feeling from Zadorov. Prospects are tricky business though and with big, huge defenseman it's always the fear that you don't want to watch a fastball go right over the plate because you tricked yourself into thinking it would curve. In that, their appeal is certainly understandable in a general sense.

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05-19-2013, 01:11 AM
  #178
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In nearly 13 years of owning the London Knights of the Ontario Hockey League, Mark Hunter has seen a number of players go from his organization to NHL stardom, among them Patrick Kane, John Tavares, Corey Perry and Rick Nash, so he has a pretty solid grasp of what it takes for a player to make it to the big time.

And when he watches defenseman Nikita Zadorov, he sees another player ready to make that leap.

"He's got all the tools to play in the National Hockey League and all the tools to be a real good National Hockey League player," Hunter said. "The sky's the limit for this young man. Really is. He's got a great future ahead of him."

I for one know whom we're selecting next month.
Or he's just a junior coach/owner pumping up his players to the media so that he can graduate high 1st round draft picks and his own program looks better for incoming American and import players and he can keep winning and making a ton of money.

I've sort of developed this feeling based on 30 years or so worth of actions that Dale and Mark Hunter aren't exactly perfectly altruistic human beings.

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05-19-2013, 01:13 AM
  #179
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I will be heading to Saskatoon tomorrow for Sunday and Monday's game, everyone here will be able to watch the games on TV so it's not really anything special but I might pop in with a few thoughts if anything jumps out at me watching live (given I don't have too many beverages).

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05-19-2013, 01:20 AM
  #180
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As for a side note about Seth Jones, watching him in the WHL Final and this Memorial Cup game I don't think he's going to be lighting the world on fire when he steps into the NHL on the offensive end and I hope he doesn't get heat for that. There's going to be a definite transition period. The points aren't going to appear magically for him, he is actually only on Portland's second PP unit currently. Doughty had notably more offensive flair at that age. Jones might have a break-in period similar to Victor Hedman has had. His terrific stick on 1-on-1's, recovery in his skating and poise in advancing the puck are all amazing in themselves, but I don't know about producing a lot of offense at the NHL level right off the bat for the first few years. The intricacies in his own zone will need to be worked on as well, I hope the fans in Colorado aren't expecting a Norris winner off the bat - he could become that in time. Developing defensemen is an arduous process and hope that isn't lost in fans looking for a saviour.

Drouin is also simply amazing, he wows me with his skill it is what makes this game such a joy to watch. A player like him and Kane should be treasured for their otherworldly magical hands. The funny thing is that Tampa will probably draft him. With the imminent retirement of St. Louis in what I assume will be the next 2 or 3 years, Drouin will be perfectly timed to step in and feed Stamkos tape to tape tap-in's. I hope Stamkos has set aside some of his big contract for a Rolex fund for Drouin and St. Louis for all the feeds he's going to be receiving for the next 10 years at least.

Jones to Colorado to anchor their emerging D with Tyson Barrie, MacKinnon to Florida to centre Huberdeau, and Drouin to Tampa to feed Stamkos for the foreseeable future. Couldn't write up a better fit for all three teams.

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05-19-2013, 11:20 AM
  #181
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As for a side note about Seth Jones, watching him in the WHL Final and this Memorial Cup game I don't think he's going to be lighting the world on fire when he steps into the NHL on the offensive end and I hope he doesn't get heat for that. There's going to be a definite transition period. The points aren't going to appear magically for him, he is actually only on Portland's second PP unit currently. Doughty had notably more offensive flair at that age. Jones might have a break-in period similar to Victor Hedman has had. His terrific stick on 1-on-1's, recovery in his skating and poise in advancing the puck are all amazing in themselves, but I don't know about producing a lot of offense at the NHL level right off the bat for the first few years. The intricacies in his own zone will need to be worked on as well, I hope the fans in Colorado aren't expecting a Norris winner off the bat - he could become that in time. Developing defensemen is an arduous process and hope that isn't lost in fans looking for a saviour.

Drouin is also simply amazing, he wows me with his skill it is what makes this game such a joy to watch. A player like him and Kane should be treasured for their otherworldly magical hands. The funny thing is that Tampa will probably draft him. With the imminent retirement of St. Louis in what I assume will be the next 2 or 3 years, Drouin will be perfectly timed to step in and feed Stamkos tape to tape tap-in's. I hope Stamkos has set aside some of his big contract for a Rolex fund for Drouin and St. Louis for all the feeds he's going to be receiving for the next 10 years at least.

Jones to Colorado to anchor their emerging D with Tyson Barrie, MacKinnon to Florida to centre Huberdeau, and Drouin to Tampa to feed Stamkos for the foreseeable future. Couldn't write up a better fit for all three teams.
I feel the same way. 20-25pts in his rookie season would be a solid showing by him. The only issue I see is that there's no one to really shelter him as he breaks into the league, unless COL goes out and signs some nice veteran 2nd/3rd-pairing defenseman to pair with him.

His defensive game at this point may actually be stronger than his offensive game, but I feel he gets by using physical assets moreso than thinking/strategy at times in his own end. You're right, there are some intricacies of playing the in-zone game that he needs to learn. I think he could get some PP time in his rookie season though, as he's shown a solid ability to play the point with the man advantage on multiple levels at this point.

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05-19-2013, 11:22 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by oilsp1ll View Post
Points are one of the last things I look in a d-man. Look at Chris Tanev, Jason Garrison, Karl Alzner, Dennis Seidenberg, etc. It's the ability to think the game, and the ability to think it at a lightning quick speed. Processing your surroundings and acting instantly in the defensive setting and being able to advance and turn the puck out of your zone as quick as possible are the most important traits in a d-man. This is where I believe Zadorov struggles and am more concerned about that point than anything regarding offense. I have similar concerns regarding Sam Morin who is a big riser on a lot of lists right now.

I was in Ontario last week and saw Barrie and London play twice and I just don't get a great feeling from Zadorov. Prospects are tricky business though and with big, huge defenseman it's always the fear that you don't want to watch a fastball go right over the plate because you tricked yourself into thinking it would curve. In that, their appeal is certainly understandable in a general sense.
These are principles that STL adheres to when acquiring defensemen. Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, Polak, and to a lesser extent Jackman, Bouwmeester, and Cole/Leopold are all very good at this. That's why it's impossible to get any legit zone time against them.

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05-19-2013, 12:20 PM
  #183
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You guys have some unrealistic expectations. We could use an Aki Berg, and Andy Sutton in their primes.

You don't just draft defencemen high and are guaranteed to get Drew Doughty or Alex Peitrangelos. Those are the rare cases where players develop beyond the likely level of achievement.

Look at every defenceman drafted in the first round in the last 10 years, then realize you are not likely to get a #1 Defenceman. You almost need to be lucky.

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05-19-2013, 12:38 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Valic View Post
You guys have some unrealistic expectations. We could use an Aki Berg, and Andy Sutton in their primes.

You don't just draft defencemen high and are guaranteed to get Drew Doughty or Alex Peitrangelos. Those are the rare cases where players develop beyond the likely level of achievement.

Look at every defenceman drafted in the first round in the last 10 years, then realize you are not likely to get a #1 Defenceman. You almost need to be lucky.
Okay...

2002
Bouwmeester (#2), Pitkanen (#2), Whitney (#2 in his prime)

2003
Suter (#1), Coburn (#2), Phaneuf (#1/2)

2004
Barker (bust), Smid (#3), Valabik (bust)

2005
Johnson (#3), Lee (bust), Bourdon (RIP)

2006
Johnson (#2)

2007
Hickey (bust), Alzner (#2), Ellerby (TBD, trending #3-4)

2008
Doughty (#1), Pietrangelo (#1), Bogosian (#2), Schenn (#3)

2009
Hedman (#1), OEL (#1), Cowen (TBD, trending #2)

2010 onwards....too early to tell:
Gudbranson (likely #3), McIlrath (bust?), Larsson (likely #1), Hamilton (likely #1/2), Brodin (likely #1), Murray (likely #1/2), Reinhart (likely #1/2), Dumba (likely #2/3), Rielly (likely #2-3), Lindholm (likely #1-2), Pouliot (likely #2-3), Trouba (likely #1-2), Koekkok (???)

I think it's fair to expect a top-pairing defenseman out of any top-10 pick, especially in a "deep draft".

Definitely something better than a "prime Aki Berg/Andy Sutton"

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05-19-2013, 12:47 PM
  #185
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Okay...

2002
Bouwmeester (#2), Pitkanen (#2), Whitney (#2 in his prime)

2003
Suter (#1), Coburn (#2), Phaneuf (#1/2)

2004
Barker (bust), Smid (#3), Valabik (bust)

2005
Johnson (#3), Lee (bust), Bourdon (RIP)

2006
Johnson (#2)

2007
Hickey (bust), Alzner (#2), Ellerby (TBD, trending #3-4)

2008
Doughty (#1), Pietrangelo (#1), Bogosian (#2), Schenn (#3)

2009
Hedman (#1), OEL (#1), Cowen (TBD, trending #2)

2010 onwards....too early to tell:
Gudbranson (likely #3), McIlrath (bust?), Larsson (likely #1), Hamilton (likely #1/2), Brodin (likely #1), Murray (likely #1/2), Reinhart (likely #1/2), Dumba (likely #2/3), Rielly (likely #2-3), Lindholm (likely #1-2), Pouliot (likely #2-3), Trouba (likely #1-2), Koekkok (???)

I think it's fair to expect a top-pairing defenseman out of any top-10 pick, especially in a "deep draft".

Definitely something better than a "prime Aki Berg/Andy Sutton"
Nice speculation. Hedman is not a #1 defenseman yet. Phaneuf is and always will be a #2. OEL still hasn't proven anything. I won't even touch your "likely #1" predictions. That leaves Suter and maybe Doughty as the only true #1 defenseman out of the entire decade.

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05-19-2013, 12:57 PM
  #186
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Okay...

2002
Bouwmeester (#2), Pitkanen (#2), Whitney (#2 in his prime) [B]And garbage by year 5, Ballard -#5 Defencemen Healthy scratch, Steve Emminger bust, Anton Babchuk - Bust, Martin Vagner - Bust,

2003
Suter (#1), Coburn (#2), Phaneuf (#1/2) Mart Stuart, Shawn Belle

2004
Barker (bust), Smid (#3), Valabik (bust) AJ Thelen - Bust, Andrej Meszaros - 2nd/3rd pairing, Jeff Schultz 3rd pairing, Mark Fistric 3rd pairing, Mike Green - All Star, Andy Rogers - Bust

2005
Johnson (#3), Lee (bust), Bourdon (RIP), Marc Staal - 1st Pairing, Sasha Pokulok - Bust, Ryan Parent - meh, Jakub Kindl - Meh, Matt Lashoff- Bust, Matt Pelech - Bust, Joe Finley - Bust, Matt Niskanen - 3rd pairing, Vladamir Mihalki - Bust
2006
Johnson (#2) Tye Wishart - Bust, Mark Mitera - Bust, David Fischer - Bust, Bobby Sanguinetti - Bust, Dennis Persson - Bust, Ivan Vishnevksy 3rd pairing - Chris Summers - Bust, Matt Corrente - Bust

2007
Hickey (bust), Alzner (#2), Ellerby (TBD, trending #3-4), Ryan McDonagh - First Pairing, Kevin Shattenkirk #2, trending postively still, Ian Cole - 2nd pairing, Jonathon Blum - 3rd pairing, starting to trend up again, Brending Smith - 2nd pairing postive trends, Nick Petrecki - 3rd pairing, trending okay, Rick Ross - trending poorly

2008
Doughty (#1), Pietrangelo (#1), Bogosian (#2), Schenn (#3)

2009
Hedman (#1), OEL (#1), Cowen (TBD, trending #2)

2010 onwards....too early to tell:
Gudbranson (likely #3), McIlrath (bust?), Larsson (likely #1), Hamilton (likely #1/2), Brodin (likely #1), Murray (likely #1/2), Reinhart (likely #1/2), Dumba (likely #2/3), Rielly (likely #2-3), Lindholm (likely #1-2), Pouliot (likely #2-3), Trouba (likely #1-2), Koekkok (???)

I think it's fair to expect a top-pairing defenseman out of any top-10 pick, especially in a "deep draft".

Definitely something better than a "prime Aki Berg/Andy Sutton"
Prime Aki Berg was a good player, as was Andy Sutton. Should I continue to pick the rest of the 1st round D men you ignored?


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05-19-2013, 01:22 PM
  #187
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You forgot Karlsson.

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05-19-2013, 01:32 PM
  #188
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If Tampa Bay picks Nichushkin and Carolina picks Nurse, we are more than pleased with whoever we have left.
The Canes picking Nurse over Drouin or Barkov is not happening.

Canes scouting staff said they have identified 1 D and 5 forwards which are the elite teir of this Draft so they are extremely happy. The chances that D is Nurse and not Jones are infinitely small. They will take a forward.

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05-19-2013, 01:49 PM
  #189
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Prime Aki Berg was a good player, as was Andy Sutton. Should I continue to pick the rest of the 1st round D men you ignored?
I put top-10 defensemen, not 1st round. Felt it was more relevant for a 7th overall pick to be compared to players picked 25th-30th, don't you think?

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05-19-2013, 01:52 PM
  #190
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Nice speculation. Hedman is not a #1 defenseman yet. Phaneuf is and always will be a #2. OEL still hasn't proven anything. I won't even touch your "likely #1" predictions. That leaves Suter and maybe Doughty as the only true #1 defenseman out of the entire decade.
LOL wut?

Pietrangelo?
OEL?

These guys aren't #1 defensemen? Jeez for an Oiler fan you got some high standards.

Good point on Hedman though, not quite a #1 yet. Maybe not even a #2.

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05-19-2013, 02:23 PM
  #191
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Yeah Hedman certainly hasn't lived up to the hype....kinda like....Larsson?

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05-19-2013, 02:57 PM
  #192
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I put top-10 defensemen, not 1st round. Felt it was more relevant for a 7th overall pick to be compared to players picked 25th-30th, don't you think?
I made a statement about first round picks, not top 10. You choose to respond to me after changing the data. Alot of talk in this thread is about possible trade downs, and other defencemen beyond ones for #7. I'd say that is pretty relevant to the conversation. don't you think?

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05-19-2013, 04:17 PM
  #193
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LOL wut?

Pietrangelo?
OEL?

These guys aren't #1 defensemen? Jeez for an Oiler fan you got some high standards.

Good point on Hedman though, not quite a #1 yet. Maybe not even a #2.
Yeah I do have high standards and I don't throw the phrase "#1 defenseman" around lightly. Maybe in your eyes, there may as well be 30 of them in the league, but for me I see a handful.

1st Pairing is another story, though.

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05-19-2013, 04:37 PM
  #194
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Yeah I do have high standards and I don't throw the phrase "#1 defenseman" around lightly. Maybe in your eyes, there may as well be 30 of them in the league, but for me I see a handful.

1st Pairing is another story, though.
I have to disagree, OEL and Pietrangelo are both legit #1 defensemen. That said out of curiosity who are your handful of true #1 D?

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05-19-2013, 05:34 PM
  #195
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I have to disagree, OEL and Pietrangelo are both legit #1 defensemen. That said out of curiosity who are your handful of true #1 D?
No particular order

Tier 1 Defensemen (Coveted "#1 defenseman")

Suter
Chara
Weber
Keith
Karlsson*

*If he can recover form from injury.

OEL, Pietrangelo and Doughty still have to prove they belong on that top list. They definitely are well on their way as are many others. But they haven't taken it to the next level the way the rest have.

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05-19-2013, 05:39 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
No particular order

Tier 1 Defensemen (Coveted "#1 defenseman")

Suter
Chara
Weber
Keith
Karlsson*

*If he can recover form from injury.

OEL, Pietrangelo and Doughty still have to prove they belong on that top list. They definitely are well on their way as are many others. But they haven't taken it to the next level the way the rest have.
You're listing Norris candidates. You can most certainly be a #1 dman and not be in the discussion for a Norris. Much like you can be a #1 goalie goalie and not be in the discussion for the Vezina.

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05-19-2013, 05:51 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
No particular order

Tier 1 Defensemen (Coveted "#1 defenseman")

Suter
Chara
Weber
Keith
Karlsson*

*If he can recover form from injury.

OEL, Pietrangelo and Doughty still have to prove they belong on that top list. They definitely are well on their way as are many others. But they haven't taken it to the next level the way the rest have.
Ok, well obviously it's a terminology issue and semantics need to be adjusted when discussing things with you. When we speak with you we will address what we would normally describe as #1 defenseman as "first pairing" defensemen if that's what makes you happy. That way we can get back to the discussion of prospects and not your odd definition of a #1 defenseman.

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05-19-2013, 05:58 PM
  #198
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I disagree about Hedman, definitely already a #2, close to a #1 if not already.

Plays over 22 min a game, the toughest minutes of all D on his team, worst zone starts, yet still maintains a very nice positive corsi.

Tied for 34th in points among all defense men, and plays a lot less PP time than most that are ahead. The best part is, 4th out of all d men for even strength points. This guy is seriously underrated.

Tough to believe he is still only 22 years old, could become a GREAT #1 guy.


Last edited by Karsa Orlong: 05-19-2013 at 06:01 PM. Reason: EV point
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05-19-2013, 06:13 PM
  #199
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Ok, well obviously it's a terminology issue and semantics need to be adjusted when discussing things with you. When we speak with you we will address what we would normally describe as #1 defenseman as "first pairing" defensemen if that's what makes you happy. That way we can get back to the discussion of prospects and not your odd definition of a #1 defenseman.
Sounds good. I look forward to this evolution of discussion.

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05-19-2013, 06:15 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Yeah I do have high standards and I don't throw the phrase "#1 defenseman" around lightly. Maybe in your eyes, there may as well be 30 of them in the league, but for me I see a handful.

1st Pairing is another story, though.
yeah....



1st pairing dmen would be 60....

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