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ECSF Game 2 | May 17 2013 | Caesar Must Die Edition

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05-18-2013, 10:44 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz View Post
I flat out disagree. IMO trading Hossa away was the biggest mistake our franchise has ever made.
Very hard to agree with that.

Biggest mistake this franchise ever made was letting Chara go.

Chara-Karlsson would be the most dominant pair in the league AINEC but we may have not been able to draft Karlsson if we kept Chara so that's a whole different story.

I'd definitely put Hossa as number 2.

With that being said, my heart shattered when we moved Hossa. He was my fav player hands down.

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05-18-2013, 10:46 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Very hard to agree with that.

Biggest mistake this franchise ever made was letting Chara go.

Chara-Karlsson would be the most dominant pair in the league AINEC but we may have not been able to draft Karlsson if we kept Chara so that's a whole different story.

I'd definitely put Hossa as number 2.

With that being said, my heart shattered when we moved Hossa. He was my fav player hands down.
Redden over Chara, Havlat for scraps, ****ing Hossa over for Heatley, and we still managed to make a cup final. Imagine if Muckler didn't suck balls, maybe we have a cup to our name.

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05-18-2013, 10:46 PM
  #178
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I miss Hossa

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05-18-2013, 10:48 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz View Post
I think Hossa has proven he is the better player compared to Heatley in every facet of the game.
Heatley was a legit sniper who put up couple 50 goal seasons. I don't understand how it is even remotely a candidate for biggest mistake.

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05-18-2013, 10:49 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz View Post
Redden over Chara, Havlat for scraps, ****ing Hossa over for Heatley, and we still managed to make a cup final. Imagine if Muckler didn't suck balls, maybe we have a cup to our name.
Hasek getting injured, lockout in the best assembled roster our team has ever put together; if we won that year we may have never seen Hossa moved.

Please don't remind me... :'(

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05-18-2013, 10:50 PM
  #181
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Easy to say and assume that if the trades were not made, the players would have stayed, or for much longer. Chara was given the max. possible under the CBA + the Captaincy of the Bruins - very attractive.

Chara also wasn't very good against the Sabres in the playoffs, and in his first year as a Bruin, and rebuilt his game to adapt. Nice to look back at coulda woulda, but it is never as clean as saying shoulda chose X over Y.

Muckler was slimy in signing Hossa and trading him, that is NOT the way the Senators operate. But it was a different time under Bryden, who did not have deep pockets and the budget was tight.

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05-18-2013, 10:54 PM
  #182
PeterSidorkiewicz
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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
Heatley was a legit sniper who put up couple 50 goal seasons. I don't understand how it is even remotely a candidate for biggest mistake.
And Hossa is still the far better player IMO. Yeah Heatley was a legit sniper and a star, but Hossa was no slouch potting goals and he is better in every other facet of the game than Heatley. Hossa is currently a complete dominant winger, Heatley's career is nothing now. We have guys like Alfie, Neil and Phillips who are life long Sens, and Hossa should have been in that group too, but Muckler pulled a complete slimeball move on the guy and here we are today.

Our franchise doesn't make too many mistakes, what else is there out there? Redden over Chara yes, Tugnutt for Barrasso? Bondra? Olsson for Demitra?

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05-18-2013, 11:06 PM
  #183
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should the trade deadline just be the start of the season then?
You know damned well this wasn't a hockey deal.

There were no weaknesses with the Penguins forwards, and no need to bring in Iginla. Just a sweetheart storybook-looks-good-in-the-papers deal.

Big difference from legitimate hockey trades done at the deadline.

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05-18-2013, 11:10 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Nac Mac Feegle View Post
You know damned well this wasn't a hockey deal.

There were no weaknesses with the Penguins forwards, and no need to bring in Iginla. Just a sweetheart storybook-looks-good-in-the-papers deal.

Big difference from legitimate hockey trades done at the deadline.
our team is better after the trade than it was before it. That's all it takes to be a legitimate hockey trade on our end.

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05-18-2013, 11:14 PM
  #185
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our team is better after the trade than it was before it. That's all it takes to be a legitimate hockey trade on our end.

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05-18-2013, 11:20 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz View Post
And Hossa is still the far better player IMO. Yeah Heatley was a legit sniper and a star, but Hossa was no slouch potting goals and he is better in every other facet of the game than Heatley.
Offense is a huge facet of the game and Heatley was better at it. Prime Heatley was just as good with Hossa, just Hossa was a different type of player.
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Hossa is currently a complete dominant winger, Heatley's career is nothing now.
Their current play imo has nothing to do with how good/bad the trade was. It's been almost a decade.
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We have guys like Alfie, Neil and Phillips who are life long Sens, and Hossa should have been in that group too
Sure it'd have been cool, but it's not necessarily a better group, just a different group.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

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05-19-2013, 11:30 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Nac Mac Feegle View Post

What is there to laugh about? Iginla has what, 11 points now? He made the Pens better and as is obvious by the fact the Pens have only won 1 Stanley Cup with their star-studded line-up winning is never a given.

They most likely can't keep all of their star players so Shero did what he had to in order for the Pens to have the best chance possible of success.

Is as much a hockey deal as any other deal is.

I also hope nobody *****ing about the refs or about conspiracy theories ever said anything about the Habs crying because quite frankly it looks pathetic.

So far the Penguins have easily been the better team - when they are in our end with control they are getting great scoring chances and they have blitzed us during the opening minutes of both games. When we have control in their end our best opportunities come off scrambles...no odd man rushes and very few legit scoring area shots.

We can play better but let's not make things up - we are being outplayed by a far better team.

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05-19-2013, 12:16 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
Offense is a huge facet of the game and Heatley was better at it. Prime Heatley was just as good with Hossa, just Hossa was a different type of player.
Heatley was marginally better offensively, if that. Hossa put up similar numbers on a less star studed team after the trade, just more assist oriented. He was still putting up around 40 goals, so your not lossing much on that front. The deal was more about getting 3 years (I think) at his lower salary. I think at the time he was around 4.5 per year, while Hossa signed a new deal at 6. So three years at 1.5 difference per. It cost us our reputation.

So in the end, we traded our reputation for 4.5 million spread across 3 years, and swapped similar quality players. Imo that's a bad move made by a cash strapped team. That's not even taking into account the uncertainty/risk in acquiring a player coming of a major injury and traumatic event.
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Their current play imo has nothing to do with how good/bad the trade was. It's been almost a decade.
Agreed, there is now way to have known at the time how it would turn out.
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Sure it'd have been cool, but it's not necessarily a better group, just a different group.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
If you were to boil it down to the end result of Greg De'vries and Hossa or Michalek, Cheechoo and a second round pick(SJ traded ours to Chicago who chose Kent Simpson), I'll take Hossa and De'vries (who's probably gone anyway as Sens didn't like his contract to production ratio) every time.


tl;dr, it was a financial move, and if finances were not an issue the team never makes that move.

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05-19-2013, 01:09 PM
  #189
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Hossa for Heatley was a genius move considering the financial situation the Senators were in

We traded a player who wanted more money than the team was comfortable paying for a, at the time, legitimate superstar

Things didn't really work out in the end but if you want to talk long term we got Heatley's best years and he wanted out as he was declining: if timing is everything we got out of serious cap trouble and saved Melnyk a bunch of money thanks to Heatley; the real killer was Heatley nixing the deal to Edmonton which would have likely worked out a lot better for us than the SJ deal (Cheechoo was done and Michalek was a good, injury-prone winger with a history of not producing in the playoffs).

Things worked out rather well for the Ottawa Senators in the end: it could have been better but overall management made the most out of Hossa pricing himself out and Heatley bailing.

It goes without saying that the sign-and-trade was not the proper way to handle things as far as player treatment goes but sometimes you have to put money at the forefront of the decision-making process, this is a business after all, and sometimes people get the short end of the stick; Hossa still ended up winning the Stanley Cup so it's not like his career suffered because of it.

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05-19-2013, 01:34 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by OD99 View Post

I also hope nobody *****ing about the refs or about conspiracy theories ever said anything about the Habs crying because quite frankly it looks pathetic.

So far the Penguins have easily been the better team - when they are in our end with control they are getting great scoring chances and they have blitzed us during the opening minutes of both games. When we have control in their end our best opportunities come off scrambles...no odd man rushes and very few legit scoring area shots.

We can play better but let's not make things up - we are being outplayed by a far better team.
Not saying this is you, but why is it so goddamned hard for people here to understand that when someone complains about the officiating they are not automatically blaming that as the reason for the outcome. I think the first two games were not officiated very well, and it is not the reason why the series is 0-2. I also think the Habs series was poorly officiated, and it is not the reason we won 4-1. It's incredible to watch, time and time again, posters here link those two automatically when many guys who complain about a call here or there go out of there way to state that it is not the reason for a win or loss.

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05-19-2013, 02:56 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by mcnorth View Post
Not saying this is you, but why is it so goddamned hard for people here to understand that when someone complains about the officiating they are not automatically blaming that as the reason for the outcome. I think the first two games were not officiated very well, and it is not the reason why the series is 0-2. I also think the Habs series was poorly officiated, and it is not the reason we won 4-1. It's incredible to watch, time and time again, posters here link those two automatically when many guys who complain about a call here or there go out of there way to state that it is not the reason for a win or loss.
Perfect, pin this.

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05-19-2013, 03:02 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by mcnorth View Post
Not saying this is you, but why is it so goddamned hard for people here to understand that when someone complains about the officiating they are not automatically blaming that as the reason for the outcome. I think the first two games were not officiated very well, and it is not the reason why the series is 0-2. I also think the Habs series was poorly officiated, and it is not the reason we won 4-1. It's incredible to watch, time and time again, posters here link those two automatically when many guys who complain about a call here or there go out of there way to state that it is not the reason for a win or loss.
Well said but that last penalty with 5 mins left they gave to Pitts was down right horrific. It puts on the best PP in the league against us and we have to kill it off then try and score in 2 mins.

Especially considering it was called when WE had an odd-man rush. Horrific call that changed momentum completely.

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05-19-2013, 03:27 PM
  #193
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I thought it had been widely discussed that Redden over Chara was Chara's decision... And not Mucklers?

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05-19-2013, 03:31 PM
  #194
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I remember hearing Chara wanted to be captain. Sounds like B.S to me but I remember hearing that rumour around.

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05-19-2013, 03:34 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Nac Mac Feegle View Post
Either way, in my mind, in the rare event Pits gets a ring (lol, no chance the way they're playing), Iginla's ring is tainted. I hate these retirement mercenary type deals where the league old timer gets traded at the deadline and a free run with the odds on cup favorite for a freebie ring.

You want a ring just before you retire? Then sign with a strong team in the summer and take your chances. Don't jump on the leading horse just before the finish line.
You sound extremely bitter.

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05-19-2013, 03:40 PM
  #196
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I thought it had been widely discussed that Redden over Chara was Chara's decision... And not Mucklers?
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I remember hearing Chara wanted to be captain. Sounds like B.S to me but I remember hearing that rumour around.
Muckler offer Redden and Chara similar deals, which Redden did end up signing - 2 years, $13M. The rumour that Chara wanted to be the captain was unsubstantiated and seems like a bogus one. What was clear was that Chara wanted more term and more money, and he got it in Boston. Not his fault that Muckler low-balled him.

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05-19-2013, 03:42 PM
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
Muckler offer Redden and Chara similar deals, which Redden did end up signing - 2 years, $13M. The rumour that Chara wanted to be the captain was unsubstantiated and seems like a bogus one. What was clear was that Chara wanted more term and more money, and he got it in Boston. Not his fault that Muckler low-balled him.
I've never believe the Chara wanting to be Captain rumours but I do remember hearing them. Chara is an amazing person, I really could never see him trying to take Alfie's C...

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05-19-2013, 03:43 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by mcnorth View Post
Not saying this is you, but why is it so goddamned hard for people here to understand that when someone complains about the officiating they are not automatically blaming that as the reason for the outcome. I think the first two games were not officiated very well, and it is not the reason why the series is 0-2. I also think the Habs series was poorly officiated, and it is not the reason we won 4-1. It's incredible to watch, time and time again, posters here link those two automatically when many guys who complain about a call here or there go out of there way to state that it is not the reason for a win or loss.
No doubt and I am not saying you are one of the guys but if you read the posts there are more than a few that are essentially saying the reffing cost the Senators the game and then of course the ones that state there is a conspiracy, etc...

*****ing about the refs is one thing - whining about losing two games we deserved to lose is another.

I was harsher than I would have liked - didn't mean to be so confrontational about it.

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05-19-2013, 03:45 PM
  #199
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I've never believe the Chara wanting to be Captain rumours but I do remember hearing them. Chara is an amazing person, I really could never see him trying to take Alfie's C...
Yeah, it was such a weird rumour, one aimed at character assassination. The guy to blame is Muckler for failing to realize just how good Chara is. Even at 36 years old, the guy is a beast who plays half the game.

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05-19-2013, 03:48 PM
  #200
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Yeah, it was such a weird rumour, one aimed at character assassination. The guy to blame is Muckler for failing to realize just how good Chara is. Even at 36 years old, the guy is a beast who plays half the game.
Back then I was in the Redden camp. With the way the game was changing to faster players I really thought Chara would have problems in the new NHL. I thought Redden was built to dominate with the new rules. Unfortunately we didn't see his downfall and demise coming. I believe his mothers death really ****ed with his brain. He wasn't the same after she passed. Unfortunate too because Redden used to be so amazing.

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