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Why Don't The Habs Ever Get Any Credit?

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Old
05-18-2013, 09:27 PM
  #51
Teufelsdreck
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Who cares what outsiders and their fans say? It's interesting that whenever a player on a visiting team is interviewed he always says it's a thrill to play in Montréal because of its history. I don't hear that about other venues.

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Old
05-18-2013, 09:44 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Forgetting about external factors for a moment, the Habs don't get respect because they don't deserve it:
  • 20 years of futility.
  • Their best player, Carey Price, has been inconclusive at best in the playoffs and he's been in the league for ages already.
  • They have a small, incoherently assembled team that does not evoke any intimidation or envy from any other team in the league.
  • No star talent up front to focus on.
  • No team identity - they're not "tough team", they're not the "skilled team", they're not the "character team" - for nearly 20 years. Management coasted on Koivu's personal victories as if the entire organization had his conviction and acted in kind.
  • No cutting edge in the management - yeas of "nearly" getting that piece or this piece have rendered them bit-players at every deadline and in free agency (and when they do dabble in free agency or trades they turn into the laughingstock of the league. Gomez, Gionta, Spacek, Gill, Moen, and Cammalleri all in one week. Thanks Bob, you shouldn't have.)
  • Years of tending to the gluttonous local media have led to this symbiotic relationship of bs fed back and forth - though this could be a metaphor for Montreal public works.

The media doesn't care about us on the ice because our team hasn't been very interesting and we still have the stank of Jacques Martin's awful negative-hockey only just starting to fade but still lack any established game-breaking dynamism that neutrals love to watch. The media don't care about our back-office dealings because we're very boring in everything we do: we don't draft off the board, we don't trade for or sign marquee players and half of the noise we generate is in French and is therefore non-existent for the rest of the league.

I say, instead of blaming everyone except the Habs, maybe the fans should reconsider what makes their great organization so great because they've been anything but great in everything except pomp and excess - capitalized when the reigning GM retired his own number in an extravagant show of insouciant pride and pale arrogance.

I started reading columns critical of the Canadiens organization and the general gist of it is: we have our heads firmly up our own ***** when it comes to our organization and on-ice product. Mediocrity and pomp all the way through.

And I say this as a die-hard fan who has faith in the team and even during Gainey/Gauthier/Present saw upward development and progression - it's just taking way too long and we're close to spoiling the current batch of mid-20s players like we did the last one. How many years longer will Price, Gorges, Patches and Pleks be at 100%?

There's a bit of hyerbole in there, but I agree. Habs will get credit when they deserve it. I think mediocrity is a better word to describe the habs than futility. Save that term for organizations like florida.

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05-19-2013, 02:58 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
But we do not have a Malkin or a Crosby in the system.

So what do we do? Stand pat year after year until we have another last place season to hopefully draft first like Edmonton has been doing for the last several years?

No offense to you but Bergevin adopted a losers mentality in his first season. And true to form, a losers mentality always ensures one thing.....losing.

LA does not have Crosby or Malkin.
Sticking to plan isn't a loser mentality. Bergevin only carried on with what he wanted to do instead of going all ''yeah screw the future, lets actually try to win now!'' at the last minute.

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Old
05-19-2013, 06:44 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You must've missed my earlier post... I think we're finally on the right track. I'm happy with the team we have and excited about the future. We can finally score and that's a minor miracle.

We've still got to get bigger, we can still improve the D... but the core of a winning team IS there for the future in my opinion.

In the past though? We've been a trainwreck for the most part. I don't see how anyone could say we weren't. Theodore, Price, Halak, Huet... they bailed us out all the time. Our clubs in front of them mostly sucked.
Let's just forget the facts and create our own reality

Are you forgetting the times that Huet, Theodore and Price let us down in the playoffs despite the team outplaying the opposition.

Price had one of his worst seasons this past year and we won the division despite that fact......oh my bad I forgot that we aren't dealing with facts here.


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Old
05-19-2013, 09:02 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You must've missed my earlier post... I think we're finally on the right track. I'm happy with the team we have and excited about the future. We can finally score and that's a minor miracle.

We've still got to get bigger, we can still improve the D... but the core of a winning team IS there for the future in my opinion.

In the past though? We've been a trainwreck for the most part. I don't see how anyone could say we weren't. Theodore, Price, Halak, Huet... they bailed us out all the time. Our clubs in front of them mostly sucked.
You seem to pin the success of the habs entirely on goaltending no matter what. All those goalies had their greatest success in the CH. Perhaps they didn't carry us as much as you let on.

Theodore, barely a NHL starter now, Huet not in the NHL anymore, halak relegated to backup duties and an injury filled career. Funny how they were all most successful on our terrible teams but suck on their respective clubs now, isn't it?

Goaltending is usually only as good as the team in front of them, minus a few exceptions.

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Old
05-19-2013, 10:29 AM
  #56
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Honestly who cares what they think.

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Old
05-19-2013, 11:30 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
No, but we try to develop players we have and make sure we draft properly. Did we know Subban was going to be a Norris nominee when we drafted him in the 2nd round? No, but it's drafting like that that makes team's contenders.

It's not a loser's mentality, it's a patient mentality. Bergevin wants to set us up to be contenders for years, not like the previous regime that made terrible trades where we sacrificed our future (Mcdonagh) for guys past their prime (Gomez).

LA does have a #1C, #1D and #1G that they got through a rough period where they drafted high (Kopitar, Doughty) along with a later round steal (Quick). Then when the time was right they went all in by trading for guys like Carter and Richards to round out their team.

Building a team like that doesn't happen overnight, you're not going to go from 15th to Stanley Cup Winner in one season. If you can't be patient then you'll be very disappointed.
Kopitar is not Crosby. This season, he only had 3 more points than Pacioretty, and FOUR FEWER goals than our #1 Center, Pleks.

The Habs also have Subban who many would say is better than Doughty. Price was as good as Quick until his confidence issues took over.

So based on your ideal of when the "time was right", it appears that the Kings were in the same timeframe last year as the Habs were this year.

Last year the Kings went after and got Richards and Carter.
This year the Kings went after and got Robyn Regehr.

This year the Habs went after and got Davis Drewiske.

The love of the prospects in last place Hamilton and the love of the 2nd round draft pick were more important than making a run for the Stanley Cup in Montreal.

THAT is why the Habs do not get credit this season. That is why Bergevin will not get credit for being a "great" GM. And with the players given to Therrien, that is why he will not be given credit for his coaching efforts.

And then some people look for reasons to explain away the perceived slights against the Canadiens. The simple explanation is that our management has sucked for decades and the new regime has not gotten off to a better start.

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Old
05-19-2013, 12:17 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Kopitar is not Crosby. This season, he only had 3 more points than Pacioretty, and FOUR FEWER goals than our #1 Center, Pleks.

The Habs also have Subban who many would say is better than Doughty. Price was as good as Quick until his confidence issues took over.

So based on your ideal of when the "time was right", it appears that the Kings were in the same timeframe last year as the Habs were this year.

Last year the Kings went after and got Richards and Carter.
This year the Kings went after and got Robyn Regehr.

This year the Habs went after and got Davis Drewiske.

The love of the prospects in last place Hamilton and the love of the 2nd round draft pick were more important than making a run for the Stanley Cup in Montreal.

THAT is why the Habs do not get credit this season. That is why Bergevin will not get credit for being a "great" GM. And with the players given to Therrien, that is why he will not be given credit for his coaching efforts.

And then some people look for reasons to explain away the perceived slights against the Canadiens. The simple explanation is that our management has sucked for decades and the new regime has not gotten off to a better start.
....Don't you realize that this very paragraph explains why Bergevin hasn't made any moves?

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Old
05-19-2013, 12:29 PM
  #59
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Respect will come when it's deserved. Getting obliterated by a heavily wounded team in playoff round 1 won't help .

They need to break out of the easy-to-play-against reputation .

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Old
05-19-2013, 01:16 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Respect will come when it's deserved. Getting obliterated by a heavily wounded team in playoff round 1 won't help .

They need to break out of the easy-to-play-against reputation .
What a joke........we were the team with all of the injuries. Never mind the fact that we outshot and outchanced them in every game.

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05-19-2013, 04:58 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
....Don't you realize that this very paragraph explains why Bergevin hasn't made any moves?
I understand that very clearly.

And as long as Bergevin takes that approach, we will be Edmonton part Two.

Developing prospects and draft picks are vitally important to the success of the organization. Solely relying on developing prospects and draft picks is a loser's choice with the future always looking bright while the present is always looking bleak.

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Old
05-19-2013, 05:01 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
What a joke........we were the team with all of the injuries. Never mind the fact that we outshot and outchanced them in every game.
Yay.

We won on the shot scoreboard. If the NHL ever gives out an award for the most perimeter shots taken by a team in the playoffs, we will win it every year with the personnel and the approach that we took against Ottawa.

Our small forwards were no match for the bigger Ottawa D. All we could do was take outside shots that made Anderson look like a superstar.

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Old
05-19-2013, 05:08 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I understand that very clearly.

And as long as Bergevin takes that approach, we will be Edmonton part Two.

Developing prospects and draft picks are vitally important to the success of the organization. Solely relying on developing prospects and draft picks is a loser's choice with the future always looking bright while the present is always looking bleak.
That's the thing.
Many of our prospects cannot really be developped. When the best callup for offense is Mikael Bournival, there's is REALLY a problem.

Hence why the need to get better "raw materials".

It doesn't mean that adding missing pieces shouldn't be done in due time.

But adding Douglas Murray at the deadline would've been like adding cherries to a sundae without icecream.

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Old
05-19-2013, 05:14 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
That's the thing.
Many of our prospects cannot really be developped. When the best callup for offense is Mikael Bournival, there's is REALLY a problem.

Hence why the need to get better "raw materials".

It doesn't mean that adding missing pieces shouldn't be done in due time.

But adding Douglas Murray at the deadline would've been like adding cherries to a sundae without icecream.
We can speculate all day long about the impact of adding Murray or Clowe at the deadline.

The reality remains that the Sens manhandled the Habs because we lacked an answer for their physical play.

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05-19-2013, 05:15 PM
  #65
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Tiesto is a habs too
Ugh, not sure this makes me happy.

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05-19-2013, 05:16 PM
  #66
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no rispeck

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Old
05-19-2013, 05:16 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
We can speculate all day long about the impact of adding Murray or Clowe at the deadline.

The reality remains that the Sens manhandled the Habs because we lacked an answer for their physical play.
In other words....

Do you really think that team was a Cup-bound team?

If yes, then you're a whiner.

If no, adding a Murray is stupid.

I mean... The Sharks added Craig Rivet in order to bring some toughness in their lineups a few years ago. They ended up missing the playoffs, and you know how that trade turned out for them.

This is why I'd be all for trading Gionta at the deadline next season.

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05-19-2013, 05:29 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
In other words....

Do you really think that team was a Cup-bound team?

If yes, then you're a whiner.

If no, adding a Murray is stupid.

I mean... The Sharks added Craig Rivet in order to bring some toughness in their lineups a few years ago. They ended up missing the playoffs, and you know how that trade turned out for them.

This is why I'd be all for trading Gionta at the deadline next season.
Honest question. At the beginning of the playoffs last season, did you tell people that the Kings were going to win the Stanley Cup?

If yes, you are probably not honest.

If no, then you know nothing about hockey.

Fun, eh?

I am all for Gionta being traded in the offseason.

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Old
05-19-2013, 06:56 PM
  #69
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If anyone really thinks that adding clowe or murray would have helped us is dead wrong. Those guys could never prevent most of our top players from being injured. People can say what they want but we got beat out due to injuries and bad calls. Call me a whiner but also call me a realist. I know the team motto is no excuses and those are not excuses they are just fact. No team could ever win with the type and amount of injuries we had.

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Old
05-20-2013, 12:07 AM
  #70
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The Yankees comparison is a bit moot, considering they've been contenders almost every year for a long time and have won championships recently.
they've had long win-less stretches too 78-96 (18years) 62-77 (15years) sure they don't have a 20 years stretch like we have right now, but I seriously think our team is going to grab a title in the next 2-4 years.

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Old
05-20-2013, 10:00 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
We can speculate all day long about the impact of adding Murray or Clowe at the deadline.

The reality remains that the Sens manhandled the Habs because we lacked an answer for their physical play.
We already had an answer to the Sens' physical play: don't fall into the trap of playing the other team's overly physical game. The Habs' worst games of the season were when they played with road rage, going out of their way to hit and check when it wasn't necessary, to send some kind of a message. Unfortunately, the message was, "We're not very good at this type of game". This was what we saw in game-three against Ottawa. After totally dominating the Sens in game-two, the Habs came out looking for a fight in game-three and played a stupid, undisciplined, out-of-position game. I don't know if it was a coaching strategy or the players lack of control, but it was the worst possible style for a team that wins by skating, not hitting.

That stupidity cost us a game, plus another two or three aggravated injuries from useless fights.

When Montreal stuck to what they were good at, they handled the physical teams very well all season. We dominated Boston and we dominated Toronto two of the last three games. We don't need to improve to beat the physical teams -- we already can beat them -- we need to improve to beat the skilled teams like the Pens and upcoming Islanders, not to mention the incoming Detroit. Ottawa's a mix of both physicality and skill, but we could have dominated them as we did in two of the games if discipline and injuries didn't tear the team apart.

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Old
05-20-2013, 12:00 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Let's just forget the facts and create our own reality
That's exactly what we did for years. We tried to fool ourselves into thinking we were better than we were.
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Are you forgetting the times that Huet, Theodore and Price let us down in the playoffs despite the team outplaying the opposition.

Price had one of his worst seasons this past year and we won the division despite that fact......oh my bad I forgot that we aren't dealing with facts here.
Without the goaltending that we had, we'd have never made the playoffs. We couldn't score and were entirely reliant on the PP.

Face it man, Montreal fans have forgotten what REALLY good teams look like. Some aren't even old enough to know what they are supposed to look like because they've never really seen one. We had a fluke year where we did well and folks knew that was a mirage.

Face it - the club hasn't really been great since the early 90s. A long, long time ago.
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
You seem to pin the success of the habs entirely on goaltending no matter what. All those goalies had their greatest success in the CH. Perhaps they didn't carry us as much as you let on.

Theodore, barely a NHL starter now, Huet not in the NHL anymore, halak relegated to backup duties and an injury filled career. Funny how they were all most successful on our terrible teams but suck on their respective clubs now, isn't it?
Do you even remember those teams? Are you going to sit there and say that Theo wasn't the reason we made it? Really?

Montreal has been really, really lucky with its goaltenders. Our goalies have had career years here while being left to twist in the wind. And when they aren't absolutely stellar we've crumbled.

Seriously for all the talk about how we've tried to paint ourselves over the years as being fast and skilled we haven't been that skilled at all. We've relied on the leftovers from other teams to round out our roster and that's why we were consistently in the bottom third of scoring year after year.

Please let's not try to pretend otherwise.
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Goaltending is usually only as good as the team in front of them, minus a few exceptions.
It's a balance. Some goalies (Brian Elliot for example) have to have a good team in front of them to succeed. Others are good no matter what. Luongo is a great example as he was incredible with Florida.

Montreal has iced **** teams and their goalies have gotten them into the playoffs. We could've easily been the Leafs. Every year it was by the skin of our teeth.

The team we have now at least has some top end talent on it. Going forward I think we'll have a very good core. One that can probably contend. Subban, Price, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Max plus whoever works out with Beaulieu and Tinordi... sounds like a strong group to me. Now it's about getting some depth and character players and rounding out the lineup. The hard part is done. Get bigger up front, get the guys to go to the net, get a big blueliner who can kill penalties and clear the net. Those pieces aren't impossible to find. Going forward we'll have a team that can actually score and that's something to be happy about.

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Old
05-20-2013, 01:44 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Honest question. At the beginning of the playoffs last season, did you tell people that the Kings were going to win the Stanley Cup?

If yes, you are probably not honest.

If no, then you know nothing about hockey.

Fun, eh?

I am all for Gionta being traded in the offseason.
Going to win the Cup? No
One of the 5-6 teams in serious contention? Yes.
Were the Habs one of these teams this year? No.

I'm not against adding toughness. But not at the point we were and still are.

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05-20-2013, 02:16 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Respect will come when it's deserved. Getting obliterated by a heavily wounded team in playoff round 1 won't help .

They need to break out of the easy-to-play-against reputation .
Ya Ottawa missing Spezza is a heavy obliterated team...

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05-20-2013, 03:10 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I understand that very clearly.

And as long as Bergevin takes that approach, we will be Edmonton part Two.

Developing prospects and draft picks are vitally important to the success of the organization. Solely relying on developing prospects and draft picks is a loser's choice with the future always looking bright while the present is always looking bleak.
bergevin just got here budz.settle down.boo hoo we didnt make the conference finals in his first year.you bailing out already??typical.

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