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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Swiss showed: NHL, KHL, SHMHL don't matter, you need a team

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Old
05-19-2013, 06:09 PM
  #76
Cruor
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Originally Posted by Supersonic View Post
I'm just having a bit trouble with how Swiss wins or almost wins are perceived by some fans. You can always read comments like "Congrats Switzerland, but if we had iced an actual team we would have won" or "Congrats Switzerland, but if we had all of our best players available you wouldn't have had a chance".

Tough games or losing against Switzerland are often connected to some "what ifs", the possibility that a top nation was just the weaker team for one day isn't acceptable it seems.
You will have to deal with those types of comments until you actually win, once you are there you will be accepted just like happened with Slovakia. Trust me I do know how frustrating that is to hear (Won't name any names )

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05-19-2013, 06:11 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Supersonic View Post
I'm just having a bit trouble with how Swiss wins or almost wins are perceived by some fans. You can always read comments like "Congrats Switzerland, but if we had iced an actual team we would have won" or "Congrats Switzerland, but if we had all of our best players available you wouldn't have had a chance".

Tough games or losing against Switzerland are often connected to some "what ifs", the possibility that a top nation was just the weaker team for one day isn't acceptable it seems.
Well, I have never said anything of the sort, but surely you understand it comes with the territory of being the 'new guy'. A few more tournaments like this and these comments will disappear. And let's face it, many canadians always say this in every tournament, every year against any team if they don't win. Heck, I associate the Olympics with comments like 'we could have fielded three teams that could have won, but the coach didn't play x enough or y was injured'

Please don't shoot me

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05-19-2013, 06:21 PM
  #78
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its all about entering the ol'boys club. For the moment they talk about it

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05-19-2013, 06:26 PM
  #79
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One hell of a performance, congrats to them.

Welcome to the big stage.

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05-19-2013, 06:27 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Cruor View Post
You will have to deal with those types of comments until you actually win, once you are there you will be accepted just like happened with Slovakia. Trust me I do know how frustrating that is to hear (Won't name any names )
Ah is SLOVAKIA in the ol'Boys club?

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05-19-2013, 06:36 PM
  #81
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Ah is SLOVAKIA in the ol'Boys club?
Not anymore?!

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05-19-2013, 06:45 PM
  #82
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well I see it like this. Swiss are on the rise for shure.
They have been knocking on the door for many years with up and downs.
Now the door has opened, they have a foot inside but they still have to bring the other one in and then they will give them a tap on the shoulder and a welcome drink

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05-19-2013, 07:04 PM
  #83
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I think North American and some Euros too are not aware of what the NHL lockout brought to the self esteem of Swiss NLA players. To play alongside and against Top NHLer and actually physically compete with them, train with them, see that they are guys with good and bad days that they can ouplay them, check them and so on has given big boost to the mental strenght of the average NLA player.
The Swiss team today goes out to win no matter who is the adversary. They respect them but are not scared to make their own game, use their skills and speed and they finally score cold bloded on PP wins or break aways situation.
The years of destructive defense hockey are gone, Simpsons neede 3 years to switch the mentality of KRUEGER HOCKEY. Mind you, respect to KRUEGER, this years were necessary and he did with what he had as players and talent.

Please have another Lock out as soon as possible.

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05-19-2013, 08:20 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by SillyBilly View Post
It's really not fair for the swiss to be compared to that greek team. All they did was pack their own half and hope to score a random goal on a counter-attack. Their games were extremely annoying and unpleasant to watch.

Switzerland on the other hand is lighting it up all across the board. Best PP, third best penalty killing, best goalkeeping, third best scoring efficiency, best offense in the preliminary round, best defense in the preliminary round, etc. It's a surprise they managed to make the final with such a young unexperienced team leaving a lot of stars at home, but it shouldn't be a big surprise that they finally made it past the QF in like their 100st or so attempt.
The point I was trying to make is that even less skilled teams have made it far so it's not a super chocker that the swiss team did well, even though I did not think it would come so early.

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05-19-2013, 11:14 PM
  #85
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Don't forget the Swiss finished second in their group at 2006 Olympics (defeating Canada and Czech Republic).

They resemble a Slovakia-light right now.....they're quite a ways from 'elite' status, but still have the ability to defeat any "A" team on any given day.
I think it is the other way around. Slovakia has been on the decline for some years already and I think the Swiss now made that final step and are ahead now. It remains to be seen whether they can overtake also Czech Republic and Finland as these have been declining too recently.

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05-19-2013, 11:29 PM
  #86
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I love it when new countries emerge as hockey powers. Switzerland is on its way there. People seem to attribute their successes and close-calls to luck. But it has been happening again and again over the last decade (they have taken many stacked teams to close games, won a few games against stacked teams, placed reasonably well in different tournaments, etc.) -- this tournament may not be entirely indicative of how the Swiss do in Sochi, but at the very least this tournament suggests that elite teams that do not take the Swiss seriously do so at their own peril.

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05-19-2013, 11:49 PM
  #87
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Doesn't mean anything. They overachieved with their best players when other countries didn't have theirs. They got put in their place in the final. Everyone likes an underdog so they look into it to much.

Until they develop some individual talent it will be impossible for them to be on the level of the big 4 (Can, Rus, Swe, USA)

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05-20-2013, 01:00 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by CASUAL KEV View Post
Doesn't mean anything. They overachieved with their best players when other countries didn't have theirs. They got put in their place in the final. Everyone likes an underdog so they look into it to much.

Until they develop some individual talent it will be impossible for them to be on the level of the big 4 (Can, Rus, Swe, USA)
Um, did you conveniently miss that post where they were missing their best NLA players, not to mention Streit, Brunner, Sbisa, Hiller, Baertschi and Weber. none of these players are plugs and all of them are probably Olympic locks sans Weber. Most teams in this tourney are fielding a B team so full credit to the Swiss for getting a Silver. They're no top 4, but there clearly is now a group of 8 countries that can realistically contend for some color of medal while outside of these 8 teams is still almost a figment of the imagination.

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05-20-2013, 01:28 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by canuck2010 View Post
The smaller ice not only dictates the physical but requires the ability to make decisions faster, handle the puck and move more quickly in smaller spaces. On the big ice surface you have more time and space to do what you want. Lots of fancy plays and skating. Players can look more skilled because the game is more like what we would call pond hockey or river hockey in Canada.

But you are right it is a different game.
I was actually waiting how long does it take until someone says that ice hockey is easier on big ice. That's a typical North America centric view, and it's wrong. Playing and excelling in small rink requires some skills that are not needed that much on big ice. In that sense you're correct, but it isn't that simple. Excelling on big ice emphasizes skills that are not needed that much in small rink. It's a different game.

Even if the international ice were 40 meters wide, you'd need skills to be better than others. Messi might not excel in futsal but it still doesn't mean that soccer is easier when compared to the variation which is speedier and played in small indoor pitch.

Personally I think the NHL rink is too small today. Some 40 years ago it was a different thing, but the players today are too fast and big for 26m wide rink. I think 28m rink is a good compromise: there's enough room to do something else than dump'n chase and wrestle in the boards.

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05-20-2013, 01:53 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by RorschachWJK View Post
I think it is the other way around. Slovakia has been on the decline for some years already and I think the Swiss now made that final step and are ahead now. It remains to be seen whether they can overtake also Czech Republic and Finland as these have been declining too recently.
It's not that bad with Slovakia let alone Czechs and Finland as majority of casual fans try to indicate on hfboards.
Sure, the decline is here, or better - was here. Czech and Slovaks are quite okey now, the problem were lost years after fall of communism. Prospects born between 89-93 are lost, it's better now.
One thing is really forgotten around here: you can have 150 elite players (Canada), at the time just 25 of them can play - and as we just have seen, one elite line is able to decide the whole tournament (Sedins/Eriksson).
So unless your team is one man show (Slovenia-Kopitar) - and Slovakia, Czechs or Finland are far away from this - the decline is debatable.
Declined Slovakia was really close to SF this year and just last tournament was silver. It's a really thin line between success and sucking.

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05-20-2013, 02:10 AM
  #91
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You dont need team chemistry, all you need is plane tickets from Vancouver to Stockholm.

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05-20-2013, 02:13 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Since right now the NHL far and away attracts the most talented players in the world it is the best measuring stick for the world's top players.
It's one measuring stick, but not very good. As I mentioned previously, there a a lot of very skilled players who are just too small or soft to get a top-6 spot in NHL and they're also useless in lower lines for same reasons. It means that they may have the talent but not the size. It's hard for these borderline cases to get a spot in NHL but they still might be very good on big ice while NHL grinders may not be very useful.

Examples from Finland:
Komarov, Hartikainen, Petrell and Joensuu have played in NHL. Are they more talented and skilled than top Finnish KHL forwards like Kontiola, Pesonen, Immonen, Aaltonen or even guys like Salminen? No. They just fullfill the requirements of NHL grinder role. Then there's Miettinen who played years as 1st line winger and still plays in NHL. He has no chances to Sochi and is behind many KHL forwards.

What is then a good measuring stick, I don't know but I know NHL status isn't a good measuring stick. WC tournaments actually show something about player pool depth and shows how non-NHLers can play with and against NHLers. One tournament (WC, olympic or World Cup) tells almost nothing, but yearly WC has quite big sample size and good sample rate, so WCs tell in long term something about depth and talent level in different leagues.

Olympic tournament is nice to watch, but it proves nothing else than which team was best in that tournament. Some 4-7 games (of which three are basically meaningless) every four years isn't just enough to make any conclusions, even though some fans think so.

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05-20-2013, 02:18 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
It's not that bad with Slovakia let alone Czechs and Finland as majority of casual fans try to indicate on hfboards.
Sure, the decline is here, or better - was here. Czech and Slovaks are quite okey now, the problem were lost years after fall of communism. Prospects born between 89-93 are lost, it's better now.
One thing is really forgotten around here: you can have 150 elite players (Canada), at the time just 25 of them can play - and as we just have seen, one elite line is able to decide the whole tournament (Sedins/Eriksson).
So unless your team is one man show (Slovenia-Kopitar) - and Slovakia, Czechs or Finland are far away from this - the decline is debatable.
Declined Slovakia was really close to SF this year and just last tournament was silver. It's a really thin line between success and sucking.
beyond that ... some years ago 1 player made a difference : Jagr

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05-20-2013, 02:19 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by CASUAL KEV View Post
Doesn't mean anything. They overachieved with their best players when other countries didn't have theirs. They got put in their place in the final. Everyone likes an underdog so they look into it to much.

Until they develop some individual talent it will be impossible for them to be on the level of the big 4 (Can, Rus, Swe, USA)
I see that you follow NLA and Swiss hockey very closely...

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05-20-2013, 02:33 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Declined Slovakia was really close to SF this year and just last tournament was silver. It's a really thin line between success and sucking.
This. Many fans try to overanalyze individual games. A country's hockey state doesn't suck because of one loss in QF. Canada has been eliminated in QFs four times in a row and does it mean that Canada sucks? No. It might tell that having a roster filled with top-6 NHL forwards isn't often enough to win (let alone dominating) a tournament against "euro teams" on big ice.

Finland beat Slovakia in QF and does it mean? Nothing, but in general Finland played quite well with one NHL grinder, one AHL scrub and a bunch of euro players.

Btw, it was nice to see a good bronze game. Even the Americans cared and those who say that North American players don't care about bronze, you should've seen how their bench (including coaches) jumped and looked when the game was decided. As fan I don't know if the bronze game should be played at all, but I think the game yesterday was a game which both teams wanted to win.


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05-20-2013, 02:58 AM
  #96
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As fan I don't know if the bronze game should be played at all, but I think the game yesterday was a game which both teams wanted to win.
Why not ? It is historical tradition in all sports (team and individual ones). I think only EURO in Soccer doesn't have bronze-medal game.

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05-20-2013, 03:01 AM
  #97
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Btw, it was nice to see a good bronze game. Even the Americans cared and those who say that North American players don't care about bronze, you should've seen how their bench (including coaches) jumped and looked when the game was decided. As fan I don't know if the bronze game should be played at all, but I think the game yesterday was a game which both teams wanted to win.
In the end, even the bronze is something you can put in your trophy room after the all is done. On every roster there are guys who never came close to being third on such tournament and never may be closer to such achievment. And they know it.

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05-20-2013, 03:18 AM
  #98
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I'm not against bronze game, I was just thinking aloud. In WC bronze games which I've seen the players have been happy to get the medal, so in that sense, yes, it's good to have the bronze game.

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05-20-2013, 04:00 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by CASUAL KEV View Post
Doesn't mean anything. They overachieved with their best players when other countries didn't have theirs. They got put in their place in the final. Everyone likes an underdog so they look into it to much.

Until they develop some individual talent it will be impossible for them to be on the level of the big 4 (Can, Rus, Swe, USA)
Look mate, one thing is having an opinion, which I respect, even if I dont share it the other is firing with wrong facts which is intellectually a robery because others read it and could assume you went after real info before writing.

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05-20-2013, 05:01 AM
  #100
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Why not ? It is historical tradition in all sports (team and individual ones). I think only EURO in Soccer doesn't have bronze-medal game.
Bronze medals are a long tradition in individual sports (athletics) and major international competitions in Europe. If the Bronze medal game had been between the Swiss and Slovakia/Latvia/Norway/Denmark, it would have been huge for all participants. However, how many domestic leagues have bronze medal games or even hand out medals? Off the top of my head I can only think of SM-Liiga having a bronze medal game.

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