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In the next 3 years, will we be that small

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Old
05-19-2013, 07:42 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
I think the more important attribute rather than size is is character. If you can create a team full of character guys who want to win as badly as the guy sitting next to them, I think you will find the size/toughness issue take care of itself.

If everyone on the team played with the same moxy as Gallagher, we wouldn't even be talking about this.
Sure, but everyone doesn't and never will. It's simple physics, guys like gionta/dd are easily moved and erased out of the play by the sheer fact that they have 4/5 inches and 20-30 lbs they're giving up. All the tenacity in the world can't make up for it. Patches often floats, but the fact that he is a physical specimen allows him to do things the other two can't.

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05-19-2013, 07:52 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Its funny because its true.
http://mirtle.blogspot.ca/2013/01/20...t-and-age.html

It's not true.

The best team in the NHL is not huge at all. The best team over the last 2 decades, Detroit, has never been a huge team. This size thing is way overblown, as shown by Boston, which is even smaller on average than Chicago this year.

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05-19-2013, 07:53 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Sure, but everyone doesn't and never will. It's simple physics, guys like gionta/dd are easily moved and erased out of the play by the sheer fact that they have 4/5 inches and 20-30 lbs they're giving up. All the tenacity in the world can't make up for it. Patches often floats, but the fact that he is a physical specimen allows him to do things the other two can't.
Pacioretty doesn't float - his centreman does (especially after getting new contracts).

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05-19-2013, 08:00 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Galchenyuk4habs View Post
Ok so what do you say to the 2010 playoff series vs Philly? We did great against the Caps and Pens, but all of a suddent when we play a physical team.... There's no point in arguing, even Bergevin has said it....
Bergevin said the Habs have to get bigger? In his PC he stated that the draft is the best way to build a team. He stated that he wanted a "balance" - and his definition of balance is best defined by looking at his past performance in management in Chicago. As Director of Player Personnel in Chicago, Bergevin helped build a team that now is the NHL's best and is below NHL average in both weight and height.

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05-19-2013, 08:10 AM
  #80
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You are grasping at straws in your excuses to keep this team small and futile on the ice. But hey, some people don't mind watching their favorite team being victimized and bullied on the ice, because they also go through life with the same philosophy.
The Habs might be "small" but they still finished 4th overall in the NHL.

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victimized and bullied?
The Habs lost to Ottawa due to less-than-stellar goaltending, injuries and stellar (.950sv%) goaltending by Anderson.

The Habs lost the series when they completely lost their composure in the 3rd game and tried to "bully" Ottawa.

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05-19-2013, 08:31 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Sure, but everyone doesn't and never will. It's simple physics, guys like gionta/dd are easily moved and erased out of the play by the sheer fact that they have 4/5 inches and 20-30 lbs they're giving up. All the tenacity in the world can't make up for it. Patches often floats, but the fact that he is a physical specimen allows him to do things the other two can't.
Gionta is getting older, but in his day, he was a menace around the net. He didn't score 50 goals by hanging around the perimeter.

Yes, you cant have a roster full of 5'9 guys, but that will never happen either. There's simply not enough of those guys with the kind of qualities I'd be looking for to go around. That's why I say that that the toughness/size issue would take care of itself, for the most part anyways.

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05-19-2013, 10:14 AM
  #82
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Gionta is getting older, but in his day, he was a menace around the net. He didn't score 50 goals by hanging around the perimeter.
Just wanted to point out that Gionta never scored 50 goals in a season. His best season was 48, other than that one season he has never scored 30.

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05-19-2013, 10:40 AM
  #83
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Have you watched the playoff games in the west? Big bodies crashing into one another. It's skills, size, grit.
Many Habs fans still do not get it. And never will.

Drewiske was a big body who was afraid to use it.

Our list of prospects may be a little bit bigger but their approach to hockey is still that of not being physical.

This team needs players with size and the hockey mentality of Gallagher. Just because Nattinen, for example, is over 6 feet tall, does not make him into a player who will make an impact in the NHL.

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05-19-2013, 10:44 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
The Habs might be "small" but they still finished 4th overall in the NHL.



The Habs lost to Ottawa due to less-than-stellar goaltending, injuries and stellar (.950sv%) goaltending by Anderson.

The Habs lost the series when they completely lost their composure in the 3rd game and tried to "bully" Ottawa.
Have you watched the Sens and Pens play?

Suddenly the Sens are not the big bullies running the Pens players like they did against the Habs.

Think of the hits handed out to Gallagher during the series.

Now look at the hits handed out to Crosby during the present series.

If you do not see a difference between the two, then you are intentionally ignoring reality.

The Sens physicality advantage is gone against the Pens.

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05-19-2013, 10:51 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
http://mirtle.blogspot.ca/2013/01/20...t-and-age.html

It's not true.

The best team in the NHL is not huge at all. The best team over the last 2 decades, Detroit, has never been a huge team. This size thing is way overblown, as shown by Boston, which is even smaller on average than Chicago this year.
Again, look at the size of their key players in Boston. Bergeron 6'2, Horton 6'4, Lucic 6'3, Sequin 6'1.... Chara 6'9. You think that little rat Marchand would be such an impact player without that size around him? Nope.

Regarding Detroit, I guess you forget about how many bruisers they maintained on those teams to keep others honest. Why is it you neglect to mention how important Probert, Kocur, McCarty, Lapointe, Shanahan were to those successful years?


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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
The Habs might be "small" but they still finished 4th overall in the NHL.

The Habs lost to Ottawa due to less-than-stellar goaltending, injuries and stellar (.950sv%) goaltending by Anderson.

The Habs lost the series when they completely lost their composure in the 3rd game and tried to "bully" Ottawa.
Then we have to ask how the 'bully' incident came about. I contend it all stems from being small and having zero confidence on the ice when things get rough. Other teams can play through it knowing they have the people to take care of the nasty stuff and physically beat the other teams. Montreal relies on small players, the same small players who get all the ice time, to do this.

There is nothing worse than looking down your bench and knowing you have nothing to counter with if things get ugly. The players know it, the other teams knows it... and I'm sure you know it if you have played any level of competitive sports in your life.

I maintain the fact the Habs will continue to lose, because at this point in time their best players aren't big enough to handle the physical pounding the playoffs bring on. You can have smaller players on your team if they have the right players complimenting them. I also don't put much stalk into the '4th overall' achievement everyone throws out there, not in this shortened season. This team was sliding fast at the end, they could have dropped drastically if another 34 games had continued.

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05-19-2013, 10:51 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Galchenyuk4habs View Post
I agree with you, look at what Toronto has done. Their top 6 is as soft as ours. Bozak/Kadri/Kessel/JVR/Lupul aren't necessarily gritty players. But look at what they did, they put in 2 of the best goons in the league on their fourth line in Orr and Mclaren, Komarov is more physically imposing than people think. They add one of the best D-goons in Fraser, and bam they're known as one of the "toughest" teams in the league. Montreal needs to do the same. Montreal has more skill than Toronto, this team would be better than them if we take the same approach.
Great post!!!

I bolded the last sentence since it appears that it was being overlooked.

Montreal has more offensive skill than Toronto.

It all goes back to having complementary skill sets on a team. Equal parts skill and toughness. Toronto is there with the toughness. Montreal is there with the skill. Both teams are incomplete and are a few steps away from winning a Cup.

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05-19-2013, 11:02 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Have you watched the Sens and Pens play?

Suddenly the Sens are not the big bullies running the Pens players like they did against the Habs.

Think of the hits handed out to Gallagher during the series.

Now look at the hits handed out to Crosby during the present series.

If you do not see a difference between the two, then you are intentionally ignoring reality.

The Sens physicality advantage is gone against the Pens.
The reason why Crosby isn't hit is not because of some mystical respect the sens now suddenly show the pens because the pens have Orpik on their roster or something.

Crosby is stronger, faster and a heck of a lot smarter than Gallagher. It's a lot harder to hit him. Gallagher has a TON of heart and you have to respect him for what he's willing to do but he sometimes get beaten up needlessly. You don't see Crosby go in front of the net for no reason.

As for the cheap shots on Gallagher.. all of a sudden the refs have decided to call stuff on the sens. All the garbage they pulled without penalties in the first round is being called. They paid dearly for it in the first game with 2 PP goals by the pens on 3 attempts. That's also part of why they don't pull the garbage they pulled against the habs.

You're really imagining things and reading way too much into certain things to try to fit your narrative that size is the cure to all problems but it's just not true.

That's not to say that having more size wouldn't be a good thing.

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05-19-2013, 11:09 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Then we have to ask how the 'bully' incident came about. I contend it all stems from being small and having zero confidence on the ice when things get rough. Other teams can play through it knowing they have the people to take care of the nasty stuff and physically beat the other teams. Montreal relies on small players, the same small players who get all the ice time, to do this.
That stuff happened because the refs let about a million ridiculous things go early on. Sens could do no wrong. Crosscheck to the face of our star player ? No problem. That was total garbage. Our players eventually lost it after the million cheapshots that went uncalled.

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There is nothing worse than looking down your bench and knowing you have nothing to counter with if things get ugly. The players know it, the other teams knows it... and I'm sure you know it if you have played any level of competitive sports in your life.
The fix to that is to win. To be winning on the scoreboard.

You'll notice that the times where we got humiliated physically we also lost on the scoreboard. Generally by a lot. That's when goon teams like Toronto and Ottawa feel like they can pull that garbage without retribution on the scoreboard.

So if we didn't suck and had not been getting trashed on the scoreboard, these incidents wouldn't have happened. They were not happening to the wings and the hawks either.

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I maintain the fact the Habs will continue to lose, because at this point in time their best players aren't big enough to handle the physical pounding the playoffs bring on. You can have smaller players on your team if they have the right players complimenting them. I also don't put much stalk into the '4th overall' achievement everyone throws out there, not in this shortened season. This team was sliding fast at the end, they could have dropped drastically if another 34 games had continued.
I think we have a bit too many small guys in our top 9. Plekanec, Gionta, DD, Gallagher, that's one or two too many. But DD will eventually be removed from the roster when Plek, Eller and Galchenyuk all show him the door. MB will make room. I am hoping next year is Gionta's last one. And if we don't replace them with more smurfs then we will be just fine. In the meantime, we finished 4th with our smurfs and we can do it again.

Work in progress.. will take some time.. won't happen overnight.

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05-19-2013, 11:09 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by E = CH View Post
The reason why Crosby isn't hit is not because of some mystical respect the sens now suddenly show the pens because the pens have Orpik on their roster or something.

Crosby is stronger, faster and a heck of a lot smarter than Gallagher. It's a lot harder to hit him. Gallagher has a TON of heart and you have to respect him for what he's willing to do but he sometimes get beaten up needlessly. You don't see Crosby go in front of the net for no reason.

As for the cheap shots on Gallagher.. all of a sudden the refs have decided to call stuff on the sens. All the garbage they pulled without penalties in the first round is being called. They paid dearly for it in the first game with 2 PP goals by the pens on 3 attempts. That's also part of why they don't pull the garbage they pulled against the habs.

You're really imagining things and reading way too much into certain things to try to fit your narrative that size is the cure to all problems but it's just not true.

That's not to say that having more size wouldn't be a good thing.
No. With all due respect to your reply, if one of the Sens tried to cheap shot Crosby, there are players on that team that will stand up and make sure that there is some pain associated with it. From Engelland to Murray to Glass or Morrow or Cooke.

We had no one on our team to stop the abuse handed out to Gallagher which ended up neutralizing him as an offensive threat.

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05-19-2013, 11:24 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
No. With all due respect to your reply, if one of the Sens tried to cheap shot Crosby, there are players on that team that will stand up and make sure that there is some pain associated with it. From Engelland to Murray to Glass or Morrow or Cooke.

We had no one on our team to stop the abuse handed out to Gallagher which ended up neutralizing him as an offensive threat.
Players aren't afraid of retribution. With the instigator, retribution means big trouble for your team. Can't do that in the playoffs.

Not to mention that retribution is nothing special. What do you want them to do ? Please tell me the details of exactly what would happen. I ask because people say these things and do not define them. The worst that can happen is someone to go Bertuzzi on someone else. That's pretty much the worst that can happen. And I think we can rule it out for obvious reasons. So we're talking about pulling a White/Subban where you drop the gloves and pound on a guy without invitation. If players are willing to take a beating in front of the net, fight other guys and block 100 mph shots to win, then they're willing to be dirty on Crosby if they could and wanted to. They would accept the "retribution" whatever it may be.

That's not the reason why Crosby isn't targeted. The only thing that matters is winning the game. And all of the retribution stuff mostly just gets in the way of that.

Plus, we hit Karlsson like crazy in game 2 against the sens. We instigated physically and hit everything that moved. Neil did nothing. He cowered in his corner. He could not do anything and no one on the sens could do much of anything about it. Wanna know why ? We were winning the game...

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05-19-2013, 11:30 AM
  #91
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Is 6ft / 200lbs "big"? In today's NHL "big" starts at 6'2" IMO.

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05-19-2013, 11:39 AM
  #92
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That stuff happened because the refs let about a million ridiculous things go early on. Sens could do no wrong. Crosscheck to the face of our star player ? No problem. That was total garbage. Our players eventually lost it after the million cheapshots that went uncalled.
Excuses. You assume this Montreal team was going to score on the PP , when in fact they weren't doing anything right.


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The fix to that is to win. To be winning on the scoreboard.
Funny thing is, this team was 'winning' up until 2 weeks left in the season, then they couldn't overcome the downward spiral. So, what's next?

Quote:
You'll notice that the times where we got humiliated physically we also lost on the scoreboard. Generally by a lot. That's when goon teams like Toronto and Ottawa feel like they can pull that garbage without retribution on the scoreboard.

So if we didn't suck and had not been getting trashed on the scoreboard, these incidents wouldn't have happened. They were not happening to the wings and the hawks either.
So all this teams humiliating defeats came around because of physical play, we agree on that. So why not address the issue? That Gryba hit was the turning point, we had no physical response. If anything I lost respect for a few of our players, watching Gorges shoot a puck at Turris, Subban's antics etc.


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I think we have a bit too many small guys in our top 9. Plekanec, Gionta, DD, Gallagher, that's one or two too many. But DD will eventually be removed from the roster when Plek, Eller and Galchenyuk all show him the door. MB will make room. I am hoping next year is Gionta's last one. And if we don't replace them with more smurfs then we will be just fine. In the meantime, we finished 4th with our smurfs and we can do it again.

Work in progress.. will take some time.. won't happen overnight.
Again, it's not the size I am concerned about as it is the physical play. You can have shorter players if they are heavy enough to run through the lines. We don't have the players that really seem to have any physical style to their game. Anyways, here's hoping MB can fix it.

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05-19-2013, 11:58 AM
  #93
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Pacioretty doesn't float - his centreman does (especially after getting new contracts).
Desharnais may be small and lose battles with bigger players, but saying he floats is dumb. His production was basically the same before and after the contract so that's BS.

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05-19-2013, 12:00 PM
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No. With all due respect to your reply, if one of the Sens tried to cheap shot Crosby, there are players on that team that will stand up and make sure that there is some pain associated with it. From Engelland to Murray to Glass or Morrow or Cooke.

We had no one on our team to stop the abuse handed out to Gallagher which ended up neutralizing him as an offensive threat.
We have as many if not more guys that can dish out "retribution", they just didn't.

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05-19-2013, 03:50 PM
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Pittsburgh is not a team that has been been void of "tough guys". Ever since 2008, I'd say that they have had an increased emphasis on those kinds of players. However, it didn't detract players from taking runs at Sid.

The biggest reason Sid is "protected" is because he protects himself. He is tough to knock off the puck and he's slippery. His lower body strength is unbelievable, and while this cannot be quantified, I don't think anyone beats him in the will and desire to win department. That comes back to the character of the player.

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05-19-2013, 04:18 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Have you watched the Sens and Pens play?

Suddenly the Sens are not the big bullies running the Pens players like they did against the Habs.

Think of the hits handed out to Gallagher during the series.

Now look at the hits handed out to Crosby during the present series.

If you do not see a difference between the two, then you are intentionally ignoring reality.

The Sens physicality advantage is gone against the Pens.
If you want to ignore evidence over personal bias then go ahead.

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05-19-2013, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Desharnais may be small and lose battles with bigger players, but saying he floats is dumb. His production was basically the same before and after the contract so that's BS.
Desharnais gets optimal o-zone starts and PP time. He "floats" in that he is a defensive liability.

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05-19-2013, 04:26 PM
  #98
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Again, look at the size of their key players in Boston. Bergeron 6'2, Horton 6'4, Lucic 6'3, Sequin 6'1.... Chara 6'9. You think that little rat Marchand would be such an impact player without that size around him? Nope.

Regarding Detroit, I guess you forget about how many bruisers they maintained on those teams to keep others honest. Why is it you neglect to mention how important Probert, Kocur, McCarty, Lapointe, Shanahan were to those successful years?




Then we have to ask how the 'bully' incident came about. I contend it all stems from being small and having zero confidence on the ice when things get rough. Other teams can play through it knowing they have the people to take care of the nasty stuff and physically beat the other teams. Montreal relies on small players, the same small players who get all the ice time, to do this.

There is nothing worse than looking down your bench and knowing you have nothing to counter with if things get ugly. The players know it, the other teams knows it... and I'm sure you know it if you have played any level of competitive sports in your life.

I maintain the fact the Habs will continue to lose, because at this point in time their best players aren't big enough to handle the physical pounding the playoffs bring on. You can have smaller players on your team if they have the right players complimenting them. I also don't put much stalk into the '4th overall' achievement everyone throws out there, not in this shortened season. This team was sliding fast at the end, they could have dropped drastically if another 34 games had continued.
Again, you ignore the evidence: Detroit is not big yet they are the most successful franchise for the past 20 years. Chicago is not the biggest yet they are successful. And stating that they win because they have "Proberts" for retribution is not going to cut it.

San Jose has the heaviest & tallest roster in 2013. Are they going to win the Cup over Chicago (which is a far smaller team)? Doubt it.

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05-20-2013, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
The Habs lost the series when they completely lost their composure in the 3rd game and tried to "bully" Ottawa.
Apparently, that is not a universally-acccepted view. Some are adamant that Therrien didn't start anything, it was all MacLean's doing.

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05-20-2013, 11:12 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
Again, you ignore the evidence: Detroit is not big yet they are the most successful franchise for the past 20 years. Chicago is not the biggest yet they are successful. And stating that they win because they have "Proberts" for retribution is not going to cut it.

San Jose has the heaviest & tallest roster in 2013. Are they going to win the Cup over Chicago (which is a far smaller team)? Doubt it.
...and again you are ignoring the facts. Detroit surrounds its 2 stars with size. Their team has size on every line. If it's not Bertuzzi, Tootoo, Franzen and Abdelkader, there is someone available to run through the lines with Pavel and Henrik. I'm not talking about goons, but actual physical players. I mean, do you even understand the makeup of their roster and what kind of a coach Babcock is? You really think he would accept his two stars being taken advanctage of every night?

Chicago's key players aren't small, they are big, this is the difference. Kane isn't huge, but 5'11 185 isn't tiny.

Montreal's key players this year were small, and thats the issue. I don't know how anyone can dispute this fact with a straight face. You can have a couple smaller key players, but a team full of them? Are you kidding me? We are a joke at center, the one key position you have to have some size at at key points in the game. Have you seen DD try and get the puck out of the corners? Its actually embarrassing watching it. Dumont and Plekanec rarely comes out on the winning end of puck retrieval.

I don't want a team littered with goons , but how any fan can deny we lack physical forwards is unreal to me. There is zero puck separation when this team is going for possession.

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