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2013 NHL Draft Talk Part 4: Flyers own the 11th overall pick

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Old
05-17-2013, 01:42 PM
  #526
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Really hoping that Ristolainen somehow falls to 11. If not, then I'm actually leaning towards Pulock being my guy in the 1st. I like Nurse but I think Pulock has the ability to be a more dynamic presence on the back end, offensively and that's what we need. I see a less speedy Duncan Keith in Ryan Pulock.

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05-17-2013, 11:28 PM
  #527
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blades first goal

maata gave nichols a gift he could not refuse, and had to score. that was one of the worst moves i have seen a dman make. throwing stolarz under a large bus. glad that guy is gonna be a penguin not a flyer. pulock, that guy scares me in a bad way. i see more of a dion phaneuf clone, and that is not meant as a compliment. guy has had some injuries. would be really unimpressed if we took him. josh morrisey, smaller, much faster and tougher. pound for pound he makes pulock look soft. morrisey has a pretty good head on his shoulders. and zadarov, scouts worried about his offensive upside. his game winner was a treat for the scouts. if used properly big zad, can be a good pro.

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05-17-2013, 11:42 PM
  #528
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If we get Ristolainen, Zadorov or Nurse I'm a happy camper. Even Pulock. Great draft class this year.

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05-20-2013, 09:50 AM
  #529
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Article in today's Inquirer discussing Nurse:

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/..._prospect.html

Nurse called Philadelphia a "great hockey and sports market. They have real passionate fans, and to play anyplace like that would be special."

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05-20-2013, 12:21 PM
  #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahthorne View Post
If we get Ristolainen, Zadorov or Nurse I'm a happy camper. Even Pulock. Great draft class this year.
Agreed.

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05-20-2013, 01:12 PM
  #531
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I often wonder the rate at which some of the beat writers respond directly to our discussions here on HFBoards. I'm starting to think that it happens far more often than we believe.

http://flyers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=671200

Well written article there by San Filippo (I've missed his regular articles since he left DelCo since he's one of the few writers that really thinks things through critically).

He takes a minor shot at Panotch too, which made me grin.

It also mirrors two points that I've made often in the past and even recently.

1) We can't openly criticize the Flyers' defensive draft practices without proper sample size. As I mentioned like a week ago in pretty decent length on here, the Flyers haven't taken defensemen early in nearly a decade at any substantial level, so to claim that the Flyers have poor development tactics for defensemen is unfounded. It also implies the opposite of failure actually, since the scouting team has come up with a few diamonds seemingly out of thin air, as many as other teams, during that time frame.

2) The article alludes to the Flyers building a defense via free agency and trade as opposed to the draft. The organization has a comfort level and a talent for taking BPA forwards. Whether or not that will change when the organization feels a defenseman is BPA doesn't really matter. The truth is that the fears that building a blueline outside of "traditional" means are really unfounded. The idea of the blueline becoming to expensive are based on legitimate concerns, but there is definitely means for cost-controlled manipulation of the defense through trade or FA prospects. On top of that, as long as we're successfully drafting BPA forwards, there will always be a revolving door among our top 9 to use for blueline building offseason practices.


Last edited by CS: 05-20-2013 at 01:19 PM.
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05-20-2013, 02:08 PM
  #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post

http://flyers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=671200

Well written article there by San Filippo (I've missed his regular articles since he left DelCo since he's one of the few writers that really thinks things through critically).
You sure San Filippo and not Bryz wrote this to make Panotch look bad...

Yeah he definitely skewers Panotch's reporting skills with this rebuttal. It was cogently written although San Filippo failed to mention the pick we traded for Eminger when mentioning how the Flyers didn't have a chance at Carlson. Although he did mention how Holmgren trading picks away like tic tacs certainly hurt...


Quote:
If there is a an area where in recent years the Flyers drafts have come up empty it’s not having picks – not misusing them.

“Inevitably that’s going to catch up,” Pryor said. “The temperature here is to win and do whatever it takes to win. You have to take a gamble sometimes. Those picks are assets for a reason.”

But, after the Pronger trade, the Flyers have made a concerted effort to hang onto their draft picks. They had seven picks last year for the first time since 2007. They are only missing one pick this year and have a full compliment next year.

“[General Manager] Paul [Holmgren] has done a good job of holding on to our picks the last few years,” Pryor said. “The way the game is now you need to have young players and to do that you have to draft young players and to do that you have to have picks.

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05-20-2013, 02:17 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
You sure San Filippo and not Bryz wrote this to make Panotch look bad...

Yeah he definitely skewers Panotch's reporting skills with this rebuttal. It was cogently written although San Filippo failed to mention the pick we traded for Eminger when mentioning how the Flyers didn't have a chance at Carlson. Although he did mention how Holmgren trading picks away like tic tacs certainly hurt...
I still maintain that the Eminger trade was Holmgren's "One-True-Blunder" so to speak. The dominoes that fell after that were telling, but honestly, everything afterwards was just to try to clean-up a mess that the Eminger trade had created.

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05-20-2013, 02:43 PM
  #534
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I often wonder the rate at which some of the beat writers respond directly to our discussions here on HFBoards. I'm starting to think that it happens far more often than we believe.
Of course. I see it often. Subject crops up here. Shortly after an article on the same subject on 1 of 3 websites. Nothing inherently wrong with it.

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05-20-2013, 03:14 PM
  #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
2) The article alludes to the Flyers building a defense via free agency and trade as opposed to the draft. The organization has a comfort level and a talent for taking BPA forwards. Whether or not that will change when the organization feels a defenseman is BPA doesn't really matter. The truth is that the fears that building a blueline outside of "traditional" means are really unfounded. The idea of the blueline becoming to expensive are based on legitimate concerns, but there is definitely means for cost-controlled manipulation of the defense through trade or FA prospects. On top of that, as long as we're successfully drafting BPA forwards, there will always be a revolving door among our top 9 to use for blueline building offseason practices.
Part of the problem with drafting defensemen are that they usually take longer to develop. So by the time they hit their prime years, they are either at or close to their UFA years. Really, the only advantage I see to drafting a defenseman high is that you get first crack at negotiating with them if they end up being good.

Better off to draft a forward who you get a return on at a low cost and use up their prime years (since they usually come at a younger age) and then move them before they begin their decline. The way they handled Richards and Carter as assets was near perfection, IMO (would have like to see 1 defensive prospect) with how they should operate going forward.

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05-20-2013, 04:23 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Part of the problem with drafting defensemen are that they usually take longer to develop. So by the time they hit their prime years, they are either at or close to their UFA years. Really, the only advantage I see to drafting a defenseman high is that you get first crack at negotiating with them if they end up being good.

Better off to draft a forward who you get a return on at a low cost and use up their prime years (since they usually come at a younger age) and then move them before they begin their decline. The way they handled Richards and Carter as assets was near perfection, IMO (would have like to see 1 defensive prospect) with how they should operate going forward.
Completely agree, but there are certainly dissenters to this line of thinking.

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05-20-2013, 08:47 PM
  #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Part of the problem with drafting defensemen are that they usually take longer to develop. So by the time they hit their prime years, they are either at or close to their UFA years. Really, the only advantage I see to drafting a defenseman high is that you get first crack at negotiating with them if they end up being good.

Better off to draft a forward who you get a return on at a low cost and use up their prime years (since they usually come at a younger age) and then move them before they begin their decline. The way they handled Richards and Carter as assets was near perfection, IMO (would have like to see 1 defensive prospect) with how they should operate going forward.
I agree also.

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05-20-2013, 08:55 PM
  #538
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I'm watching the London/Portland game right now. I must say I really like Horvat. The puck seems to always find it's way to him. He's a strong kid too. His work along the boards is pretty impressive.

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05-20-2013, 08:59 PM
  #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I often wonder the rate at which some of the beat writers respond directly to our discussions here on HFBoards. I'm starting to think that it happens far more often than we believe.

http://flyers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=671200

Well written article there by San Filippo (I've missed his regular articles since he left DelCo since he's one of the few writers that really thinks things through critically).

He takes a minor shot at Panotch too, which made me grin.

It also mirrors two points that I've made often in the past and even recently.

1) We can't openly criticize the Flyers' defensive draft practices without proper sample size. As I mentioned like a week ago in pretty decent length on here, the Flyers haven't taken defensemen early in nearly a decade at any substantial level, so to claim that the Flyers have poor development tactics for defensemen is unfounded. It also implies the opposite of failure actually, since the scouting team has come up with a few diamonds seemingly out of thin air, as many as other teams, during that time frame.

2) The article alludes to the Flyers building a defense via free agency and trade as opposed to the draft. The organization has a comfort level and a talent for taking BPA forwards. Whether or not that will change when the organization feels a defenseman is BPA doesn't really matter. The truth is that the fears that building a blueline outside of "traditional" means are really unfounded. The idea of the blueline becoming to expensive are based on legitimate concerns, but there is definitely means for cost-controlled manipulation of the defense through trade or FA prospects. On top of that, as long as we're successfully drafting BPA forwards, there will always be a revolving door among our top 9 to use for blueline building offseason practices.
Very well written. It was nice to see someone give it to TimmyP. It's nice when a writer backs up their story with basic facts and not BS. You just know TimmyP was blinking and twitching when he read that story.

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05-20-2013, 11:49 PM
  #540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Completely agree, but there are certainly dissenters to this line of thinking.
I dissent to an extent. If the team had patience, it wouldn't be as much of a problem. Detroit had Brendan Smith for what, 6 years in junior and the minors before he made the team for good this year. I agree, the Flyers don't have a large sample size to look at when it comes to defenseman, but trading for a top defenseman has become almost impossible now. What team is going to trade a #1 d-man nowadays?

I think the only way to pull it off is to find a team that has become dissatisfied with their player (like Hartford with Pronger back in the day, or St Louis with Erik Johnson), and then make a trade. And even then, those players still are a risk. Pronger panned out. Johnson, the jury is still out.

Otherwise, how in the world is the team supposed to come up with a #1 d man?

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05-21-2013, 02:51 AM
  #541
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Originally Posted by ahthorne View Post
If we get Ristolainen, Zadorov or Nurse I'm a happy camper. Even Pulock. Great draft class this year.
Agreed.

Barring any major set backs all of the mentioned are locks to become serviceable top-4 defensemen. Half of them may even have first pairing upside and maybe...just maybe... one of them is a future #1D when brought along the right way.

The problem is to figure out who that guy is....

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05-21-2013, 07:08 AM
  #542
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Agreed.

Barring any major set backs all of the mentioned are locks to become serviceable top-4 defensemen. Half of them may even have first pairing upside and maybe...just maybe... one of them is a future #1D when brought along the right way.

The problem is to figure out who that guy is....

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05-21-2013, 08:21 AM
  #543
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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
I dissent to an extent. If the team had patience, it wouldn't be as much of a problem. Detroit had Brendan Smith for what, 6 years in junior and the minors before he made the team for good this year. I agree, the Flyers don't have a large sample size to look at when it comes to defenseman, but trading for a top defenseman has become almost impossible now. What team is going to trade a #1 d-man nowadays?

I think the only way to pull it off is to find a team that has become dissatisfied with their player (like Hartford with Pronger back in the day, or St Louis with Erik Johnson), and then make a trade. And even then, those players still are a risk. Pronger panned out. Johnson, the jury is still out.

Otherwise, how in the world is the team supposed to come up with a #1 d man?
Did you just miss Ryan Suter this offseason? Or when the Flyers got Timonen? There is more than one way to skin a cat.

And Brendan Smith is a perfect example of gettting little return on an ELC investment. Detroit has to negotiate a new contract with him after only 48 NHL games. Whereas the Flyers will have the benefit of seeing nearly 200 NHL games of Schenn and Couturier when it comes time to negotiate with them.

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05-21-2013, 10:20 AM
  #544
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I'm watching the London/Portland game right now. I must say I really like Horvat. The puck seems to always find it's way to him. He's a strong kid too. His work along the boards is pretty impressive.
I see him being gone before the flyers pick. Dallas or NJ will snatch him up.

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05-21-2013, 10:40 AM
  #545
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Did you just miss Ryan Suter this offseason? Or when the Flyers got Timonen?
I think the Flyers missed signing him by a long way this offseason. Which shows the folly of relying on free agency to get a #1 defenseman.

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05-21-2013, 10:57 AM
  #546
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I see him being gone before the flyers pick. Dallas or NJ will snatch him up.
Possibly. All I know is I wouldn't be terribly upset if we picked him. Him and Domi combined for a highlight reel goal last night.

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05-21-2013, 11:46 AM
  #547
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Did you just miss Ryan Suter this offseason? Or when the Flyers got Timonen? There is more than one way to skin a cat.

And Brendan Smith is a perfect example of gettting little return on an ELC investment. Detroit has to negotiate a new contract with him after only 48 NHL games. Whereas the Flyers will have the benefit of seeing nearly 200 NHL games of Schenn and Couturier when it comes time to negotiate with them.
Brendan Smith is also a perfect example of being cost controlled in the sense that he only has a 48 game window of what he's done. He's not going to get a big contract on that window. No one will give him that.

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05-21-2013, 12:08 PM
  #548
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Brendan Smith is also a perfect example of being cost controlled in the sense that he only has a 48 game window of what he's done. He's not going to get a big contract on that window. No one will give him that.
Point being that 3 years of his cost control was done at a non-NHL level.

As an aside, I find it funny on these boards how Brendan Smith is viewed as this great defensive prospect and Luke Schenn is viewed as a major bust, yet Schenn is a younger, more established player.

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05-21-2013, 12:16 PM
  #549
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Completely agree, but there are certainly dissenters to this line of thinking.
I'm a dissenter and I'll explain why.

That article talks about the number of defensemen drafted that are still with their club. I don't have a problem with that. The big thing the article fails to discuss is what number of number one defensemen were drafted that are still with their same club that drafted them.

Number one defensemen don't just become available that readily. When they are available, it's usually at a ransom or in the case of Timonen, you're getting a desperate club just willing to get anything back in return.

The article is also a fluff piece, not written by a beat writer, but by someone who is paid by the Philadelphia Flyers to write good things about the club. Does anyone honestly think that Anthony San Fillipo is going to write anything negative about the club? Of course he isn't.

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05-21-2013, 12:19 PM
  #550
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Point being that 3 years of his cost control was done at a non-NHL level.

As an aside, I find it funny on these boards how Brendan Smith is viewed as this great defensive prospect and Luke Schenn is viewed as a major bust, yet Schenn is a younger, more established player.
Point being that he's not going to get a big contract and that Detroit is still going to benefit from this.

I don't view Smith as a great defensive prospect and the comparisons between him and Schenn are unfair comparisons because Schenn is close to being an elite shut down guy while Smith is more of a two way guy.

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