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Canes wanted Staal from the Rangers for Johnson

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Old
10-01-2006, 07:23 PM
  #76
CM Lundqvist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Noone is saying that Gleason is in Johnson or Staals league. As far as your tyutin immonen offer goes who knows if it was offered up to the Canes. You have to realize that by getting Gleason and Belanger they got 2 players who are known quantities. With Tyutin Immonen they get. Obviously the Tverdovsky contract was a big reason in this deal getting done. But the fact is is that there are few teams who could afford to take on that deal. The Canes got 2 players that can step in right now and play for them . Not seasons down the road. Rutherford felt this was the best deal he got offered and took it. So apparently he wasnt offered any dman above the talent level of Gleason and no 3rd line checking center above the talent of Belanger.
And this is why I've said it's a pointless deal. There is no reason to make this deal to get that kind of return to "stay competitive" because in no way do those players put you over the top for a cup run, or even put you in that picture. They regressed, if anything in that trade.

Great trade for you guys though, I'm very happy for LA.

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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Gretz- Some guys, or more like most hockeyplayers, kind of have a roof when it comes to their skating.

I don't know how much you are into Trac& Field, but lets say Pavel Bure where like Carl Lewis. Pavel could skate like Carl could run. Allot of it where practise, allot of it where talent. There is no way someone like A-Rod could practise and become as fast as Carl Lewis. Jarkko Immonen needs work on his skating, though the work he puts in there, can only take him so far. If Immonen skated like Zetterberg he would be one of he best 2nd line centers in the game.

Immonens engine aren't very good, I think he have worked extremely hard just to get where he is with his skating. He just aint a very talented skater.

A good comparision is probably Dubinsky and Immonen. Dubinsky, quite honestly, is a terrible skater today, but after seeing him skate I think he have allot of potential to improve his speed. I think Jessiman have that to. I am pretty sure Bruce Graham never will be able to improve his skating, and I kind of feel like Immonen have reached his max too.

Dubinsky just have a better "engine", its complex, but he gets somewhere when he takes a stride, it doesn't look pretty but he goes forward. Dubinsky kind of reminds me of Forsberg gooing straight ahead. Forsberg aren't techniqally a very good skater, but his speed gooing forward is great. Immonen is just one of thoose guys who looks kind of heavy when skating, they rarely are able to work that away.
I agree with what you're saying. Practice and hard work can only get you so far, but it's talent that seperates some from making it rather than missing the cut. You're dead-on with Immonen's skating, he really has come a long way from what I've seen and heard. He looks better now than he did last year in Hartford, if you ask me. But, some guys just have heavy feet.

I think the problem with Dubi is the extra weight he put on. He looks like he hasn't completely adjusted to it yet and it made him look like he was behind the play at times during the preseason. That's fine, he's 20 years old, and 1 year out of being drafted. Give the kid some time. He'll be great for us. He'll work everything out and come along just fine.

It's sad, Graham was a good prospect too. I thought he'd come around and make a good player, 2nd or 3rd line center. But big guys who can't skate are pretty much becoming obsolete in this NHL.

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Originally Posted by MisterUnspoken View Post
What's your point? So you are saying he couldn't fail? Fact is that for SOME reason they wanted to move JJ. As far as we know he refused to play for Carolina and they salvaged what they could before the news became public.

In other words all these theories are a bunch of hot air.
Yes, but it was still pointless to move him at that point in time. They had another 3 years to see if his value could go up. I would have traded him at the trade deadline either this year or next year. That's why they got the crappy return they got.

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Originally Posted by frozenrubber View Post
Let correct something here. You don't want (or should want) a very 1-dimensional Tverdovsky. While maybe a stopgap for the regular season (much like Ozo), there is a major reason why the Canes and Devils chose not to play him in the playoffs. Very similar liabilities that Sandis showed during the Devils series.

Just a quick note as this point you keep harping on severely discredits some of your other opinions.
I don't "want" Tverdovsky. But to get Jack Johnson, wouldn't you take him? I'm sure I would, and I'm sure if you asked 30 gms around the league, and some former general managers, if their cap situation was right, would they take on his salary to get Johnson, No less than 9 of 10 would say yes. So how would that "severly discredit" some of my other opinions?

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Originally Posted by xander View Post
hmm. I'm all for maintaining cap flexibility, but If this is the reason for backing off Johnson then I'm alittle disapointed.

I would have gladly given up Tyutin + and eaten Tverdovsky's contract if it was going to fetch me Johnson.

And while I was orgionally of the opinion that the Rangers didn't have enough to offer the Canes, when you consider what they got back...

It's not worth lamenting over because it's done, but damn!
THANK YOU, VERY MUCH.

I guess most people around here don't like the idea of taking a small hit to acquire a huge net gain.

This all goes back to people not wanting to give to get, as in the trade proposals... it's funny how things never change.

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10-01-2006, 08:22 PM
  #77
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Haha...I like how one moment you say "the Rangers could use Tverdovsky" and then change your opinion to just a salary hit...fantastic...

I'll make this a bit simpler again, JJ wasn't going to the Eastern Conference. Everyone w/ half a brain would of loved to match the offer, but Rutherford also needed the consolation he wouldn't see JJ burn him in the future. Simple.

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10-01-2006, 10:26 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by frozenrubber View Post
I'll make this a bit simpler again, JJ wasn't going to the Eastern Conference. Everyone w/ half a brain would of loved to match the offer, but Rutherford also needed the consolation he wouldn't see JJ burn him in the future. Simple.
I question how big of a factor this was. Yes, I'm sure it was taken into consideration, but you still have to get the best value. And it's not as if trading him to the rangers would have been moving him within the division. Ruling out everyteam within your own conferance is an awful strategy because you eliminate half the teams in the league as trading partners and destroy your leverage. I'm sure the Canes listened to offers from several in conferance but out of division teams.

The Oilers had no problem with moving, arguably, the best defensmen in the world within they're own conferance. As much as I love JJ, he can't be mentioned in the same breath as Pronger, so I don't buy the: he was never, ever, ever, going to an eastern conferance team arguement.

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10-02-2006, 08:40 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by frozenrubber View Post
I'll make this a bit simpler again, JJ wasn't going to the Eastern Conference. Everyone w/ half a brain would of loved to match the offer, but Rutherford also needed the consolation he wouldn't see JJ burn him in the future. Simple.
Yep, that's what it came down to.

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10-02-2006, 10:21 AM
  #80
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Tyutin

I'm not sure if I would trade Tyutin straight up for JJ.

Tyutin had a very strong rookie year for the Rangers and has definitely shown to me that he COULD be a top pair defenseman. Or he'll be the 3-4 guy for his entire career. Granted, he probably wont be a perential all star. He plays the good game as a defenseman - invisible perhaps, but getting the job done. Not to mention he has had a great pre-season. Keep the hip checks coming!

JJ is TOTALLY unproven. How many "sure things" have never lived up to their potential? How many top 5 picks have never even played as well in the NHL as Tyutin did last year? Fact is - for every Scott Stevens, there are a lot of average players drafted very high.

I'll admit, I'm not a big gambler, but I probably wouldn't make that gamble. Only time will tell if it would have been wise....

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10-02-2006, 10:26 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Yep, that's what it came down to.
what proof of this do we have? Pronger wasn't going to the western conferance...until he was dealt to Anaheim. I just don't think this was the end all be all factor that everyone is making it out to be.

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10-02-2006, 10:27 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by frozenrubber View Post
Haha...I like how one moment you say "the Rangers could use Tverdovsky" and then change your opinion to just a salary hit...fantastic...

I'll make this a bit simpler again, JJ wasn't going to the Eastern Conference. Everyone w/ half a brain would of loved to match the offer, but Rutherford also needed the consolation he wouldn't see JJ burn him in the future. Simple.
He was a salary hit, but for an injured and for the injured and semi-depleted defense we have right now, we could have used him just as a body instead of calling up a young kid that's not ready, and toying with him. Hopefully, Baranka could prove me wrong about that though. I'd really like to see him do well, but at the same time, I'd like to have an insurance policy. So we don't pull a Malhotra with him.

JJ could have went to the eastern conference if the offer was right, we just did not pony up enough for him. I mean, look at the return, it screams that no one was offering anything for him because they knew Rutherford wanted to deal Tverdovsky. That was a deal made in panic mode, which means, no one wanted to give up what Rutherford wanted, and then on top of that, take Tverdovsky.

I mean, don't you think Chicago, a team with better assets to offer would have jumped on that? Vancouver could have offered up Bourdon and Cooke, and it would have been the same deal, but with two better players.

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10-02-2006, 10:30 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by xander View Post
what proof of this do we have? Pronger wasn't going to the western conferance...until he was dealt to Anaheim. I just don't think this was the end all be all factor that everyone is making it out to be.
It's not a question of proof. If the Canes were asking for Staal from the Rangers but got Gleason from the Kings, it seems like they were willing to take less to get JJ out of conference.

The Pronger situation is not the same. There had to be a team that had the assets to give up to get him and be able to fit his salary into their cap.

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10-02-2006, 11:37 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
It's not a question of proof. If the Canes were asking for Staal from the Rangers but got Gleason from the Kings, it seems like they were willing to take less to get JJ out of conference.

The Pronger situation is not the same. There had to be a team that had the assets to give up to get him and be able to fit his salary into their cap.

I can't say I believe the Staal rumors. Not because the Canes wouldn't want him, but because the Canes wanted imediate help and Staal wouldn't have given them that. Why trade one 87' born defensemen for another when your only problem with the one you've got is that he isn't ready yet?

then again, this entire affair doesn't make sense to me. I don't see the need to move Johnson now and I don't see why you would limit yourself to 15 viable trading partners. I understand wanting to ship him out west, but I think in the end you have to allow yourself to make the best deal, especially when your trading a commodity as valuable as Johnson.

We're talking about a guy who might be the #2 talent inhis entire draft class who has done nothing but progress in his first year of college. I just don't get why you would move him like this.

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10-02-2006, 11:56 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by xander View Post
then again, this entire affair doesn't make sense to me. I don't see the need to move Johnson now and I don't see why you would limit yourself to 15 viable trading partners. I understand wanting to ship him out west, but I think in the end you have to allow yourself to make the best deal, especially when your trading a commodity as valuable as Johnson.
This is the biggest thing to me. I don't understand why CAR was so intent on dealing JJ.

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10-02-2006, 11:59 AM
  #86
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No kidding... everyone is wanting the Staal brothers to play together.

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10-03-2006, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
This is the biggest thing to me. I don't understand why CAR was so intent on dealing JJ.
It's become more and more obvious that JJ had no intentions on playing for the Canes. Is it because of the whole Illitch-State of Michigan-Karmanos love hate relationship? It's been guessed at that.

At this point, if Rutherford felt dealing JJ was a better move when we could have used a stop gap like Cale Hulse or Jason Woolley in the lineup with defensive liabilites like David Tanabe, Andrew Hutchinson, and Oleg Tverdovsky in the slated to be in the lineup, I think there may have been a feeling something else is also involved in his decision. If not, yes, Rutherford is a very stupid man.

No matter what Johnson does in his career, if the Canes win the Cup again this season (or next) then this deal will make sense. Belanger takes Cullen's place perfectly on the third line, a move that puts Letowski back on the left side. Gleason will play a lot of minutes for Laviolette because his skating and grit will allow him to take Aaron Ward's spot. Gleason is a top 4 defenseman for us right now, especially with Kaberle out of the lineup and Hedican banged up. Both players can excel past what Ward and Cullen gave us IMO. I think Gleason's offensive skill will start to show itself and Belanger will flourish in his role.

Not drinking the Kool-Aid, but I've been down on JJ for a year already.

Good luck with the Rangers this year, I really think the Rangers will do some damage in the playoffs (barring injury to Jagr).

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10-03-2006, 12:54 AM
  #88
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JJ had some issues, looks like he enjoyed the college scene a lil too much, hell be good though

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10-03-2006, 01:08 AM
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http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=295802

The Rutherford side of things.

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10-03-2006, 01:23 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The Pronger situation is not the same. There had to be a team that had the assets to give up to get him and be able to fit his salary into their cap.
That's the case with EVERY trade.

The Pronger deal, in essence, is a trade, a 2 team deal no different from any other normal 2 team deal except for the magnitude of the top player being dealt and the salary figures being exchanged.

Aren't those the normal factors that determine how a deal goes down?

Pronger could have went east the first time if someone was willing to give up what Edmonton gave up, which if you ask me, wasn't all too crazy.

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Originally Posted by hockeyprincess View Post
No kidding... everyone is wanting the Staal brothers to play together.
Yeah, I'll take Eric and Jordan, thanks.

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Originally Posted by nyrhockey00 View Post
JJ had some issues, looks like he enjoyed the college scene a lil too much, hell be good though
How could he get to enjoy it a little too much? He was only there for one year.

Which brings me to a question I've asked a countless number of times since I first heard it as a rumor...

Why in the hell would Rutherford be pissed at his top prospect wanting to stay for his SOPHOMORE YEAR at college?

What rocks was that foo smokin'?

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10-03-2006, 01:34 AM
  #91
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canes fan side of it. if jj didnt want to play here then i dont mind him being traded. you can say all you want that the canes didnt get "enough", but what wouldve been enough? in a interview linked above by storminator rutherford admits he offered jj to the pens for jordan...no go. you guys have it here the rangers wouldnt even give marc for him. its obvious rutherford had a particular list of guys he wanted to acquire, not just a propspect ranked high on hf. he's had his eye on gleason for a long time and this was his chance to acquire a young dman who is already a fairly seasoned pro and looks to be a top 4 guy for years to come. jj is a few years from being dominant, and this nucleus of the canes is a little older than him. in the end the kings will likely have the best player and will enjoy this trade longer - but if the canes have gleason and he is part of a team that wins another cup and is a top team for a few years, its worth it.

i hate keenan. i hate what he did to the rangers. i still think it was worth it. would you have rather have had weight/amonte etc...or a cup? gleason isnt over the hill like mac t, tikki, glenn anderson or some old fogey brought in for one season. he's still in his early 20's for the love of god.

call it drinking the koolaid all you like, but im glad this soap opera is over, and while it wasnt a flashy return the players coming back will immediately contribute - and gleason likely will for a long time. the money to get rid of tver is a big deal - i would be surprised if that money didnt go somewhere useful before the season ended. i cant think of a lot of teams that wanted oleg at 2.5 a year.

funny you guys mention pronger. rutherford was the guy who traded him from the whalers years ago for shanny, if youre looking for a bad omen about this....there ya go.

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